Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: Y2J on December 19, 2007, 01:50:46 PM
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Yootz just locked the Sonny topic because it was "a matter of opinion."
Every topic that the Committee faces will be a matter of opinion. How come they are locking out other members of the community from voicing their opinion on a given matter?
I, along with others, feel that banning Sonny (who didn't even find the bug), and not anyone else for taking advantage of that bug is bogus. But the committee deleted all the post Edgecrusher and I made last night defending Sonny, and proving sk89q was also culpable for this action. But, in the committee's efffort, to save someone they like, they deleted all the post, post that included sk89q personally attacking me. ( which I'm wondering if he currently has a forum ban for?)
Now, I've disagreed with the committee all along, and this is specifically why. They are looking on individual basis, and letting their own loyalties to people get in the way of serving justice to all.
Sk89q made some ridiculous posts last night, he attacked me, and he also took advantage of this bug. So why is he not currently banned like Sonny, until an appropriate sanction for all is concluded, not just for one.
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Yootz just locked the Sonny topic because it was "a matter of opinion."
Every topic that the Committee faces will be a matter of opinion. How come they are locking out other members of the community from voicing their opinion on a given matter?
I, along with others, feel that banning Sonny (who didn't even find the bug), and not anyone else for taking advantage of that bug is bogus. But the committee deleted all the post Edgecrusher and I made last night defending Sonny, and proving sk89q was also culpable for this action. But, in the committee's effort, to save someone they like, they deleted all the post, post that included sk89q personally attacking me. ( which I'm wondering if he currently has a forum ban for?)
I agree Y2J, I think that closing the thread was wrong, and it should be reopened. To make decisions, we need opinions, this game is based on its Community, thus we need the Communities opinions, especially on something like this.
The Commitee didn't do any of the above Y2J, individuals did it. I'm part of the Comittee and i agree with you so try to remember that.
I think the reason Sonny is the only one banned now is to stop him doing it again. Making Sonny the only scapegoat for it all won't happen, and if it does then the Committee is dead for all I care, thats not the reason it was created for. (On a side note, from what i've seen from the Committee in general, people don't let their feelings get in the way, and if they do, there is enough of us to kick some sense into them).
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To make decisions, we need opinions, this game is based on its Community, thus we need the Communitys decisions.
You are absolutely correct Lekky.
For the record, the posts wer enot deleted, they were moved.
secondly, the posts were moved as it was becoming a flame fest/battle of opinions.
If you want to keep the posts, keep it civil.
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I didn't lock any thread.
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Alright I'm sorry for grouping the Committee as a whole, as I don't even know if they have the power to moderate the forums. But other forum moderators were present in the discussion, who are also committee members, witnessed this happen, then once other people came and backed me up, decided that the post were somehow flaming? NONE of Edgecrusher's post were flaming, and should have all stayed in the discussion. We had many valid points for why Sonny should not be banned, if you're not banning others, but when I woke up they were magically gone. It's kind of disheartening that we take the time to stand up for something we believe, only have it deleted by a forum moderator also on the committee, because they don't want anything shining in bad light to them.
Maybe there is a conflict of interest here. No one can question the committee, because some of the committee moderates these forums. We should be able to voice any concerns about the way things are being handled, with out the threat of people deleting it before the public gets to see an argument.
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Yootz, this is the last sentence of the last post on the Sonny thread, made by you:
"Thead locked, all discussion is a matter of opinion in this case."
Someone locked that thread, and it seems likely it was you based by that.
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There is ONE moderator who is also on the committee, upon seeing his name up for nomination, I declined my nomination for the committee, so that when you tried to say there is a conflict of interest, you would be wrong. I knew this would happen if KnacK and I were both committee members, so I have distanced myself from the committee. I can assure you if KnacK does any wrong doing, there is a non-committee member to keep him in check.
What are you trying to prove here? Nobody has been banned, this is all speculation.
Edit: correction, I see that Sonny has been banned for the time being.
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At this point I just wanna to point out ONE thing.
Sonny didn't found the bug, didn't crashed the server over and over again, he is the only one to get banned, and so called testers got a walk from jail free card. Honest? No.
Maybe there was more things to point out.
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II think the reason Sonny is the only one banned now is to stop him doing it again.
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It's the classic, ban first, ask questions later, which is what Jitspoe outlined before the committee was even created. I personally see nothing wrong with it, I mean, nothing shady is going down here.
Forgot to cite source:
As for snap decisions, those might have to be handled in a "ban first, ask questions later" fashion.
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Sonny has been banned, and it's crap. He has to wait for the committee's vote? Why don't sk89q, and anyone else who used this bug, for whatever purpose, have bans, pursuant to their "court date"
I'm proving that in deleting all those post, you guys are saving face because more and more of the community was stepping in to back my belief, which was contrary to yours. God forbid people have different beliefs than the DP committee! I, and everyone else, should be able to voice their opinion on a matter without it being shut down, deleted, moved away from public view, and at the same time, people attack me and nothing gets done about. But lord knows if I question his intelligence, I would be banned because of who I am. It's ridiculous that loyalties lie in the way of any true standard being set in this game, thus making this a game of cliques and brown nosers.
I mean honestly, as Edgecrusher said, Sonny didn't even find this bug. Find the person who found it, punish them. Punish EVERYONE who used it, for whatever reason, on a pub server.
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Y2J,
The posts were REMOVED due to the intense flaming, that is all. If you feel it was based on something else you are very wrong.
And since I am a moderator AND on the committee, it must only be me that you have all of this anger against.
Logs are currently being gone through to collect information and once that is done, decisions will be made.
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There was NO flaming in Edgecrusher's posts. How are you even going to try and say there was. And there wasn't any flaming in probably 80% of my post. Most mine were right along the lines of defending Sonny, until SK89Q came in and attacked me. So seriously, how come you will not respond to why he is not currently banned from the forum?
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There was NO flaming in Edgecrusher's posts. How are you even going to try and say there was. And there wasn't any flaming in probably 80% of my post. Most mine were right along the lines of defending Sonny, until SK89Q came in and attacked me. So seriously, how come you will not respond to why he is not currently banned from the forum?
His 2 posts were caught up in the thread split.
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Again Knack, I ask, you ban me, you ban skater, you ban bob from this forum, for making comments just like SK89Q. How come SK89Q was not banned for his comments to me, which were unprovoked.
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Caught up in the thread split...
That means, no matter that I didn't flamed anyone, that I was just stating the obviou once you look at the whole situation, my posts don't count because they were caught in the thread split. Well, there were alot of flaming on forums no matter the subject was. I don't remember the posts were deletet when the flame erupted.
And I believe my posts were valid. And that they gave another insight on the subject.
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All of the removed posts have been placed in a thread for the committee to review them.
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Again Knack, I ask, you ban me, you ban skater, you ban bob from this forum, for making comments just like SK89Q. How come SK89Q was not banned for his comments to me, which were unprovoked.
You're like Roger Clemmens over there. Except at least he denies it, you're just ignoring it hoping it blows over, which it won't.
You can't ban some, but not others, for doing the same thing.
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Ok KnacK you're missing the point horridly. You act like you cant just proxy into the forums even when you are forum banned so I dont really see the point in that either...
But in seriousness, All Y2J is saying is that he feels his posts were deleted and moved from the public forums to hide his opinion which contradicted that of the committee. EC and Y2J have been around longer than any sk89q regardless of his scripting abilities... Also banning Sonny for testing out a "hack" which he didn't even come up with is stupid.. Nowhere in the rules / agreement does it say anything about exploting flaws in the scripting....
If the committee is going to be taken seriously it needs to view both sides... not to mention Sonny just added a good 4 or 5 servers to the serverbrowser... hes not some troublemaking hacker...
Give the kid a warning, this is hardly as serious as you make it out to be.
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HELLO WELCOME TO THE DP FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi BoB =]
And Seriously, Sonny has run two successful tournaments in the past like 2 months and is working on another one. He is one of the few actually acting on the "Lets Improve the Community" bs I keep hearing about...
-Maybe if we idle #definedp we will help the community
-WHAT FEATURES DO YOU WANT IN THE NEXT BUILD?! VOTE NOW!!!
...No? Sonny has stayed up til 5 AM running the DaRkNeSS cup for to win... also he just paid for 5 servers as well as is currently hosting a tournament two weeks from now on New Years Eve.
You guys act like you would ban Loial or someone from GT if they had done the same thing... lmfao no.
Give him a warning and fix the script, simple
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To be honest here sk89 is here more than me as I can see from his profile. He registered in August last year, and I did in April this year, started playing about a year ago.
But the point is regardless on how long you are here, everyone should state his opinion. And not to get post deletions because of that. The thing is, in that locked topic, only Y2J, Cola at some point and myself tried to voice in second opinion and yes, we tried to defend Sonny in the meaning either all get banned or none. And we are still in no mans land where we have only 1 player banned from the game and forums whilst the others who did THE SAME THING roam arround free, expressing their point of view and defending their testing actions while the only one who did get banned can't speak his mind.
No logic, no sence, rash decisions, autocracy, which hunt. Welcome to the 12th century.
Edit: to all of those who suspect his motives Flame stated about bringing clan scene, matching and cups: I talked to Sonny an hour and a half ago, he said to me that no matter what happens, Leezeerz cup will go on. Here is a part of that convo from the IRC. The other part is private and Sonny asked me not disclose some of the things he said.
<X^MA|Sonny`out> iam fine with a 32day or a 64day global ban... but i want to be unbanned from the forum
<X^MA|Sonny`out> because i have to organize a cup
<X^MA|Sonny`out> leezerz is more important than me
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Well, I have thoroughly read both this and the Sonny forum page, and believe a ban is in order to all participants. Now before any of you jump on me, here is why: Testing on your own server is great for helping discover what causes the issue, but as soon as you do it to another server, you now have affected many peoples playing ability and took down some of the few servers that really helped this community. IE: the GT servers, the Q servers, the Leezers Servers, the EV1 servers and some of the individual clan servers. I believe sonny, as he clearly discovered the glitch and did not report it, should remained banned until the committee has a decisions. I believe the decision should be based on number of servers crashed, like a point system. I also dislike the sudden outrage toward prominent members of the Community like Sk89q. He crashed servers, but was not the only one and if you are to make the point that sonny should not alone be banned you must refer all participants in this unfortunate act. I believe both Sk89q and Queenie, those are the only 2 off the top of my head, did test and take down I believe 1 server a piece. Although both are very helpful to the community I believe they also should be temp-banned based on a point system. Obviously they did not do nearly the damage that sonny called, and thus a point system across the board should be issued. A list of all server crashers and number a crashes should be compiled, so that not one or 2 people may be hit with the anger and rage of the friends and biased opinions of the accused. All opinions are valid, but one must see past all relationships to a fair judgment. I have recently become on fairly good terms with Sk89q, meeting him on servers, and talking to him on IRC. I highly doubt he meant any harm by his one (to my knowledge) crashing session, but i believe he should still be banned, just not as severely as other crashers doing more damage. Really a point system would be useful here, and I hope those reading this post read the whole thing and did not skip to the bottom.
A Concerned member of the community,
-Cusoman
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Let me ask you then one thing:
Hypotheticly: we have 2 speed hacker. One has been using his cheats for 1 second, other has been using em for 5 minutes. Do they deserve the same ban? Or let's make a point system.
Does it matter that sk89g is as you said a prominent member of the communitiy? I see your point but it's false. Easy as that. Rules are to be obeyed no matter who broke them.
But hey, this rule has not been written yet! So let's go, ban one for example, leave the so called testers alone, they were just testing, no matter that they crashed GTs and other prominent servers. Yes, let's do it! And justice for none.
Edited: not so prominent community member,
EC
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Please take in to consideration that currently only one person is banned and there will be possibly more. This is not over.
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I do see your point Edgecrusher, but this isn't speedhacking, and although that was an excellent analogy, it cannot be used because this is an incredibly different story. I do feel bad the sonny has to be banned while others walk free, but because of his blatant lack of reporting, i believe he should be. The other confessed to there meddling and caused much less damage. And even using your speedhacking example, because the one used it for only 1 second, i would definitely give 8 day ban max, because they did not harm anyone else's play, and obviously, for whatever reason, stopped, and there fore should not be punished as bad as the one who plays for 5 mins owning due to speed and ruining a great siege or ctf game, normally one of strategy. I can tell you are livid because one of your good friends has been banned in an unfortunate circumstance, and I think you agree with his being banned, its just you believe others should be banned with him. If that is your thinking, i completely agree, but most of the others did not do as sever damage and thus should be banned for less time. Also I cannot believe you are still on Sk89q's case. I already said that what he did was wrong and should be banned for a certain amount of time, but when arguing that others should be banned, you should argue the entire list of others because the way you are currently saying things makes you sound biased, true or not, and that makes your points much less valid.
-Cusoman
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Well you see cusoman the problem is not that I'm biased. Yes, he was my team member, but you don't know much about me. I cherish thruth, honesty, ethics, moral above all. So the fact if Sonny is my friend or not, I would do the same thing for anybody.
You haven't read posts that were deleted so I'm sorry but you don't know the back story. Do you know who started crashing servers? Sonny was pointed out because of Vicioz post (wow, look at this, another my ex team mate), the fact is, he is still only one banned, alot of others will walk free, I just hope Sonny will let me to disclose list of persons involved in this.
So what if it's a diferent story? Does it matters if it's speedhack, ZGH, aimbot or anything else? NO, bans are clear and same for any of these actions. The only thing is that you sound biased, you don't want same ban time for sk89g and others.
@Knack - hopefully, we will see as time passes by.
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Cusoman, put some spaces in between points, nobody has the time to try and read your blobbish paragraphs... tbh its annoying idc not a personal attack just dont make it so annoying to read, its a rant.
And I think the members of the community have the Committee pinned right now, based off how I see this being handled. If the "committee" is truly concerned they should be helping us out, you know the people who kinda voted for them?
Banning Sonny ingame is one thing, to take away his forum privileges is just an outrage... There are 2 more tournaments he has planned regardless of whether or not he can still play in them.
Also he crashed his own servers, ok no problem theyre his... Lekky's I doubt he didnt confess to considering Lekky is the leader of his clan... unless I'm wrong. And I know half of the people who play this game would LOVE to crash a GT server while Loial was in it... just my observations...
Anything longer than a 32-day ban is unjustified... Give him his forum privileges back and stop hiding behind this so called committee of 10 members, 5 of which play dp more than 10 minutes a month. The only people I currently respect in there are Olbaid, Lekky, and Zorch... the only 3 you can find if you need something... everyone else is just using the title for unknown purposes
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As I see it, this is why the decision was made:
There was proof sonny was using the exploit, so he was banned.
Now we need to find out who else has been using it, with proof, so they can also be held responsible.
On another note, Sonny is requesting access to the forums so he can manage his New Year's Eve tournament.
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On another note, Sonny is requesting access to the forums so he can manage his New Year's Eve tournament.
done
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...someone said sonnys ban will be longer than 32 days
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Well, until i know who has started all of this, according to you, I believe sonny should remained banned. I also think that what you are saying about ban times is incorrect. I believe this was Sk89q's/Queenie's/Others who admitted first act of evil, and as such I believe they should have a mush lesser ban time then one who did not admit what he was doing, crashed multiple servers (which in my head would be multiple offenses). If sonny did not start this, but instead it was others, then they too should be banned at the current moment as sonny is, but that does not change the fact that Sonny has committed more acts (server crashes) then any other person currently known to the public. I feel that anyone that admitted to server crashing/testing should be banned, but at a lesser degree than those who did not admit to crashing, especially when those who did not admit to crashing were caught with proof of multiple offenses. I am not sure what you are arguing for, for those who participated to share the same fate as sonny, or for those who participated to be punished except sonny. If you are thinking the first one, i would like to inform you that the world is not black and white, and there were lesser acts of evil done via server crashing than others, and I do not think that those that were able to admit what they had done and when should be punished as harshly as a multiple offense, non-admitted caught red-handed participant. These are my clear, and to my knowledge, un-biased opinions. I have also come to the conclusion that neither of us are biased, but most likely just see different ways of approaching this troubling situation.
-Cusoman
Edit: For flame: I shall use bullet points next time, though paragraphs are much more professional.
Edit2: I hope no one thinks I dislike sonny, as i believe he is also a prominent community member and agree that forum privileges should be allowed. When in the above post i say he should be banned, that is pertaining to in-game ban and i am sorry for anyone who misinterpreted my misleading writing.
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not bullets just
type
your sentences with diff points
like this so its easier to read
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When we say 'test' we really mean 'going into every populated public server outside of those that belong to the motherland saying OWNED OWNED OWNED and crashing the server', then bragging about it on IRC?
Sonny hadn't crashed my servers (as I thought when I made one of my initial posts), but I've got two others who crashed them with intent and a third who looked like they *may* have been legitimately "testing" it. Sonny had all the chances in the world to test the exploit on his own servers, and accordingly report the problem to jitspoe. He used this exploit as an opportunity to act like a typical script kiddie, going around crashing servers and having a laugh. I'm also willing to bet that he had some hand in distributing the exploit which is probably why this is more of a problem then it should be. The `funname 255` bug wasn't fixed for how long, over a year? It doesn't mean that people had posted it all over IRC and were crashing servers endlessly.
Sonny started leezerz and has populated it with a few things trying to generate traffic for what looks like a server rental business. He's provided servers for, and helped run (but doesn't look like organize) one tournament, and has organized a second with a 10min modification of the rules it took me a couple hours to write. In my opinion, he hasn't exactly been one that's gone above and beyond to help this community.
Now that he's a server admin, you think it would be a common courtesy to notify jitspoe and in this case other server admins of the problem, rather than set off with his german buddies to go and crash every server other than his.
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Xbain, the only problem I have with your above post is your personal attacking of sonny. In this case, i believe we should attack what sonny has done, and not who he is.
For future/past reference, whenever I talk about sonny, it will most likely be his actions and not his personal self to which i am in disagreement with.
-Cusoman
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Well, I think I wrote all I can on subject for today. Now that Sonny can post on forums again, let's hope he'll give us his insight on the matter. This is more deeper as I understood from my convo with him than you can imagine. We shall see.
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So Knack, how come SK89Q did not receive a forum ban for his comments?
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lmfao i think shanes been banned from the forums longer than ive been on them.
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Not Shane, this kid SK89Q was personally insulting and attacking me last night, just like something Shane would do, but was not banned for it, like Shane would have been. Which leads me to question why.
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lol Y2J, from what I remember it wasn't as bad as you are making out, you make it sound like a total onslaught.
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no i know what you meant y2j... i was just saying you brought up shane which makes me laugh since skaters been banned from the forums a good 7 months but this kid gets away with attacking you...
no equality, this is 2007 =P
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"[truth], honesty, ethics, moral"
I told the truth. I was honest. I explained my actions publicly when I could have JUST PMed a GT admin, and all would be well. Ethically and morally it was all for the greater good, yes?
But here are some numbers:
- GT runs four public servers, usually only one to two really have people on
- I crashed one server
- This said server had zero players, and given this and the above, my "test" had no impact (not that it would have mattered anyway, as someone else would have crashed it later)
- I was the first to report my logs and IPs so whoever knew what they were doing could find the problem
- Queenie admitted to crashing only after I reported my logs with his name and IP address
- The command at hand, when given an arbitrary high number, hits the upper maximum of a signed long (2147483647) and reports a non-fatal error
- An number in arbitrary range that is a small subset of the range of a signed long is very very very very very very! unlikely to cause a problem in programming when the bounds or larger number have no effect
What sets me and some other people apart from the people with malicious intent:
- Crashed several servers
- Crashed the same server more than once
- Crashed a server with people on it
- Possibly crashed a Windows server run by someone with likely no technical knowledge
- Spread the exploit so even MORE people could exploit it
- Crashed all the servers in a organization's set
- Did not report findings from "tests" to anyone -- rendering the test useless and only for selfish reasons
- Clearly maliciously did it, as seen by their chat comments in the game
- Did not honestly report what they did publicly
- Did not look through the C code to find the problem
- Did not actually perform one's own initiated tests (i.e. check if the map command was being abused, which was what ViciouZ and I thought of)
Other people tested too, yes, but I doubt they put too much thinking into as I. For example, Queenie crashed my server when it happened to have 16 people on it. As for "rules," there are no defined rules about exploits -- it's just ethics, and ethics are very opinionated.
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wow, dont go bashing queenie, you both did the same thing with unjust reasons...
you both deserve a 32 day ban, idc how much thinking you had behind it, you had no reason to do what you did other than to test it out because it sounded cool. Obviously it worked or nobody would have told you about it...
gg
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Sounded cool? Queenie doesn't run a server. He has NO stake in the matter. I happen to. Also, it wasn't confirmed when ViciouZ told me the information. Even he wasn't sure the way he said it. It was an idea that was bounced against me -- no one "told me the exploit."
But anyway. That's the end of my commentary. Wouldn't want feed more fuel to the fire.
More or less, I think many of you just like Sonny more than me to begin with ;D
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Of the two, Queenie should receive a considerably longer ban because he purposefully disrupted a server that was in use- sk89q, as he said, just wanted to test it. Why he didn't test it on his own server or even a local test server, I don't know.
I think he should've been exempt from a ban if he had, but for whatever reason he disrupted someone else's server instead of his own.
EDIT: And honestly, I don't think Sonny should be unbanned. If a tournament he was organizing suffers because he's gone, that's too bad, but you can't use it as an excuse to be unbanned.
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Well, since I was editing my post when Eiii posted, might as well clear what he said up. I tested it on my server when the round had JUST ended (and the test failed), so even when I did it on my own server, I had calculated the damage. I already alerted everyone to the "reconnect" command and the tests that were to follow via mm1 and cprint.
Oh, and I just didn't even think of using a local server. Bit short-sighted there on my part. However, a lot of things don't quite work the same when you do run a server locally. As for a dedicated server, I can't run both the server and the client on the same machine -- the server drops all of its clients and refuses connections after a few seconds of play time.
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False
You speedhack 9 times in a day - 32 day ban
You speedhack 2 times in a day - you get a 32 day ban
You create 9 accounts - 16 day ban
You created 3 accounts - 16 day ban
You announce that youre hacking and do it multiple times spamming IM HACKING IM HACKING - 32 day ban
You do it once, get scared delete it and defend yourself - 32 day ban
YOU CRASH 9 SERVERS - 32 day ban
YOU CRASH 1 SERVER - 32 day ban
no questions asked...
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you hide multiple accounts you get 16 days
you own you you get 8 days
you speedhack once you get 32
twice you get 64
kill 1 person 20 years
kill 2 people 40 years
you kill 10 servers with x number of players you get ?
you kill 1 server with 0 players you get ?
Even so, all the above mean zero. This is a new situation, and thus deserves to be analysed independently from anything else.
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False
You speedhack 9 times in a day - 32 day ban
You speedhack 2 times in a day - you get a 32 day ban
You create 9 accounts - 16 day ban
You created 3 accounts - 16 day ban
You announce that youre hacking and do it multiple times spamming IM HACKING IM HACKING - 32 day ban
You do it once, get scared delete it and defend yourself - 32 day ban
YOU CRASH 9 SERVERS - 32 day ban
YOU CRASH 1 SERVER - 32 day ban
no questions asked...
That's a silly analogy. In all of those cases, the person doing it intended to do damage. Though I do think there should be a ban in sk89q's case, I think Queenie's should be longer because he intended to do damage, while sk89q was not.
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Lekky, you just summed up what i wrote out in paragraphs on the page before, well done. Also sk89q, because you did crash a server, i believe you deserve a small ban, but like I, you and lekky have clearly identified, you do not deserve a ban equivalent to that of sonny or the yet to be disclosed list of originators. I also don't think Queenie deserves a terribly long sentence either because he did not exploit the glitch multiple times like the undisclosed list of players and sonny, the only identified multiple-timer. Remember, take everyone' posts like a grain of salt.
-Cusoman
Edit: apparently Eii, Lekky, Sk89q, and I are on the same page, as they all beat me to my post. :)
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you hide multiple accounts you get 16 days
you own you you get 8 days
Sonny never hid it, neither did sk89, bad example
you speedhack once you get 32
twice you get 64
They both did it once, once again bad example
kill 1 person 20 years
kill 2 people 40 years
Dont know where youre getting these numbers but you should get life sentence for both, so once again bad example
you kill 10 servers with x number of players you get ?
32 Days
you kill 1 server with 0 players you get ?
32 Days =]
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That's a silly analogy. In all of those cases, the person doing it intended to do damage. Though I do think there should be a ban in sk89q's case, I think Queenie's should be longer because he intended to do damage, while sk89q was not.
Oh really, youre basing this off what? sk89q's own statement...? good base for your evidence... He coulda used my server if he told me, he couldve used his own... not sabotage a GT... k?thanks
"I swear I wasnt hacking, i was mowing the lawn while a friend installed ZGH"
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2 life sentences if you kill 2 people*
Like I said Flame. This is a new situation, one of the reasons the Committee was created was to analyse new situations and the punishments they deserve. We can't base new situations directly on the punishments of other situations.
In fact the current punishments also depend on many things. For instance people with more than one account, but having only used one, or only used one of them months and months ago will not be banned, etc, etc.
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Flame, i must say you are being torn apart in the argument, no offense, and repeating yourself makes you seem out of ideas. 1server compared to 10 servers is definitely different. I say 1 server 16-42 day ban depending on the scenario. 10 servers: 132-255 day ban depending on the scenario.
Just my thoughts..
-Cusoman
Edit: Remember I mean no personal harm. :)
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Flame, i must say you are being torn apart in the argument, no offense, and repeating yourself makes you seem out of ideas. 1server compared to 10 servers is definitely different. I say 1 server 16-42 day ban depending on the scenario. 10 servers: 132-255 day ban depending on the scenario.
Just my thoughts..
-Cusoman
LMFAO out of ideas?
until someone gives me a valid explanation as to how I am wrong, based of how everything has been handled in the past, i'll stick to my argument
"torn apart" is a good description if we're talking about what i did to lekkys last post and your last point...
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Hmmmm, how did you tear apart my last post. I seems as though you have ignored the paragraphs I wrote earlier and the current points I have now. If you can honestly prove that 1 = 10 i will bow down to you as you will have one the argument. Until then, both mathematics and logic I believe make 1 seem loads less severe the 10, unless of course I am going insane.
-Cusoman
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The first line of my last post actually ripped yours to shreds, but keep trying :P
EDIT: lets try keep on topic from now on, mods are tough and we'll have no excuse when it gets locked.
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Good thing were comparing killing people with DP.
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Lekky, based off that last statement, youre contradicting everything the "committee" has said about equality and unbiased decisions.
They did the same thing... same ban time... theres nothing you can argue that will justify sonny being banned longer than sk89
Sorry next time ill get 2 life sentences, die and come back to serve out my second...
GOOD POINT... really tore me to shreds...
Added: Im not off topic at all...
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Well, killing is a valid argument, as death is a way to halt the payments on your student load, legally might I add. ;)
-Cusoman
Edit: What Lekky and I mean to get across is that, as I said earlier, the world is not Black and White, and 1 does not equal 10, so in fact, by changing the ban lengths, it is in fact upholding equality by adjusting the ban length based on severity. I see not valid point coming from you, because there are severity levels to offenses. If severity has never been taken into account before when issuing ban lengths then there is something wrong with the way the committee operates and should begin basing things off of severity level.
Edit2: By the way the first thing in this post was to respond to the humor added by Darkness, and is not part of the argument.
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Yeah crashing a server should be compared to me murdering a person vs a whole family... good point... you got me
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Lekky, based off that last statement, youre contradicting everything the "committee" has said about equality and unbiased decisions.
They did the same thing... same ban time... theres nothing you can argue that will justify sonny being banned longer than sk89
Sorry next time ill get 2 life sentences, die and come back to serve out my second...
GOOD POINT... really tore me to shreds...
Added: Im not off topic at all...
For instance, people have NOT been banned for multiple accounts. Others have. I'm still not understanding your base argument, you think we should base these punishments on the punishments of other bans? How so. This is a totally new situation.
EDIT: im not saying we should lock them away for 20 years. I used that example to show you that people breaking the same rule, in different quantities dont always deserve hte same punishment. Thats was a simple example, direct and to the point, please try and take it as that.
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For instance, people have NOT been banned for multiple accounts. Others have. I'm still not understanding your base argument, you think we should base these punishments on the punishments of other bans? How so. This is a totally new situation.
People are banned for multiple accounts some just havent been caught yet...
Name a scenario where someones ban has been longer for doing the exact same thing?
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wow, dont go bashing queenie, you both did the same thing with unjust reasons...
you both deserve a 32 day ban, idc how much thinking you had behind it, you had no reason to do what you did other than to test it out because it sounded cool. Obviously it worked or nobody would have told you about it...
gg
Queenie crashed one of my servers while his clan was in the middle of a match/scrim... I find this much worse then crashing any of the other pub servers (not because they're mine, because this was a competitive game, not some ub_cliff 5s respawn crap). I'm not patching the problem on my servers because I don't want to cripple them for those of us who can behave nicely. Anyone who does crash them will find themselves excluded from any pub servers, tournaments or leagues that I ever hold in the future, at my discretion.
This isn't a black and white issue. sk89q was one of the few people that were actually working towards a solution along side myself, Viciouz, KnacK, krewzer, and a couple others. It was a collaborative effort and I commend his actions. Let GT iptables him out if they want.
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People are banned for multiple accounts some just havent been caught yet...
Name a scenario where someones ban has been longer for doing the exact same thing?
Ok, we have not banned someone for having more than one account, happy? Someone else has multiple accounts and gets banned for 8 days, someone else got a 16 day ban.
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Biased
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eg, one account registered 4 months ago and never used.
eg, 4 accounts used consistently.
Biased?
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Well, I believe my point, as it is the point of many others, has been justly supported and displayed tonight, so I am getting off till another time, to continue this argument, as I am sure it will not be over for many a day. A bid you a due.
Oh and remember to never personally attack a person individually, but rather attack there ideas and actions to which you disagree with.
-Cusoman
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Ok, we have not banned someone for having more than one account, happy? Someone else has multiple accounts and gets banned for 8 days, someone else got a 16 day ban.
once again. bad example...
They both admitted to it openly... Nobody denied the server crashing. Obv not sonny and definitely not queenie, nor did sk89q.
Equal bans based off the multi-account standards, am i right?
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Pahah, this thread is so pointless.
Is it even a big deal if a server got crashed, they where all probably on a restart script anyway. I'm not saying that Sonny did was right, He deserves band time, But 32 days is far to much, I think even 8 is pushing it. But why use Sonny to set an example to everyone else that crashed servers after the act as been commited.
Why was he banned from the forums, I never saw him flaming anyone.
~MT
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No, dont you read Flame?!
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eg, one account registered 4 months ago and never used.
eg, 4 accounts used consistently.
Biased?
I believe Dark was talking to Xbain anyway...
and that goes back to my other post with the list of stuff... the severity doesnt matter, bans are equal
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Golly, obviously not. One was more severe and got a ban, the other one didn't...
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No, dont you read Flame?!
Yes, THEY BOTH ADMITTED TO IT... 8 day ban for all... gg
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Golly, obviously not. One was more severe and got a ban, the other one didn't...
so now what? the committee is basing who they ban based on who they like more? good job?
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ok, both admitted, one got an 8 day ban, one didnt get a ban. Seriously though, read my whole posts.
EDIT: read the reasons above. Going to stop posting now as i think you're doing this on purpose..
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Does it matter how "bad" it was? It was still a personal attack. DirtyTaco, Myself, Bob, Skater, have all been banned for the simplest of a personal attack. Simply calling someone merry has gotten me banned. Now all I'm asking for is a little justice in explaining why sk89q is not banned for personally attacking me. But Knack (being the coward that he is) refuses to answer my question, along with any other admin.
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Every single ban in this game has been equal to the offense, not the amount of times unless it occurred after the 1st ban / getting caught...
Why start now with Sonny as a test subject and let sk89 get off easy?
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Does it matter how "bad" it was? It was still a personal attack. DirtyTaco, Myself, Bob, Skater, have all been banned for the simplest of a personal attack. Simply calling someone merry has gotten me banned. Now all I'm asking for is a little justice in explaining why sk89q is not banned for personally attacking me. But Knack (being the coward that he is) refuses to answer my question, along with any other admin.
Just posted that in case people who didnt see the posts get the wrong idea :P But yeah..
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Knack (being the coward that he is)
Exchange illogical or brainless for coward, and this is essentially the same 'attack' sk89q landed against you, drop it.
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y00tz thats so old. and you know I love you, but Y2J makes a valid point, the same point I am making...
-Regardless of the severity of the crimes, the crimes were still committed
therefore equal punishments should be implemented regardless of the intent/end result of the situation
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-Regardless of the severity of the crimes, the crimes were still committed
therefore equal punishments should be implemented regardless of the intent/end result of the situation
...no.
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I'm watching South Park so I must have missed something, what's old?
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lol ok Eric... just read the argument with me and Lekky and tell me where you have me pinned. id like to know what i said that was not heavily backed up
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The bit where you said severity or intent shouldnt be taken into account when deciding a punishment...
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Um, why would I drop it? It doesn't lead to a ban, so I feel I am perfectly in the right calling him out for being a coward in this instance. Stand up for your decisions, don't ignore the issue.
SK89Q called me an idiot, etc. With no backing, and when it comes down to it, and I called him out on it, he continued to say I "wouldn't understand", yet again questioning my intellect.
In this instance I am calling Knack a coward because I asked him a simple question 4 times. He has flat out ignored the issue 4 times now. Thus, he has proven to be a coward.
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Um, why would I drop it? It doesn't lead to a ban, so I feel I am perfectly in the right calling him out for being a coward in this instance. Stand up for your decisions, don't ignore the issue.
It just might lead to a ban if you keep expressing your view in an offensive way.
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well EII, then how come sk89q isn't banned. That is my point. These mods get mad at me for insulting people, but when others that they like insult people, it's ok.
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skeet.
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Didn't: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=10786.msg109903#msg109903
Don't double post.
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Explain to me why someone who personally attacked another forum user isn't banned?
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Wallhacking 1st offence
you hack once for 5 min. - 32 day ban
you hack once for 30min. - 32 day ban
you hack for 3 days without being caught. - 32 day ban
you admit to hacking for any of the above length of times. - 32 day ban.
Speedhacking 1st offense
you hack once for 5 min. - 32 day ban
you hack once for 30min. - 32 day ban
you hack for 3 days without being caught. - 32 day ban
you admit to hacking for any of the above length of times. - 32 day ban.
Wallhacking 2nd offense
you hack once for 5 min. - 64 day ban
you hack once for 30min. - 64 day ban
you hack for 3 days without being caught. - 64 day ban
you admit to hacking for any of the above length of times. - 64 day ban.
Speedhacking 2nd offense
you hack once for 5 min. - 64 day ban
you hack once for 30min. - 64 day ban
you hack for 3 days without being caught. - 64 day ban
you admit to hacking for any of the above length of times. - 64 day ban.
Wallhacking 3rd offense
you hack once for 5 min. - lifetime ban
you hack once for 30min. - lifetime ban
you hack for 3 days without being caught. - lifetime ban
you admit to hacking for any of the above length of times. - lifetime ban.
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looks like the ban times are the same regardless of admitting it or not. hm..... weird.
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now here is where situations change. i agree with this though. different actions require different attention.
Multiple Accounts Not admitted
1 extra account. 16 days
5 extra accounts. 16 days
15 extra accounts. 16 days
Multiple Accounts Admitted
1 extra account. 8 days
5 extra accounts. 8 days
15 extra accounts. 8 days
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i believe that "knowingly" crashing servers falls under the hacking category. although i don't entirely believe a 32 day
ban is the best solution. but, crashing servers hinders the ability for people to enjoy the game, such as wallhacking and speedhacking. there is currently no sub category for hacking bans that let the culprit off easy by openly admitting what he has done.
i know that this is a new situation that has come up hard and caused some trouble. but, by only banning sonny and making an example is just wrong. sure the way he used this "exploit" was poor judgment on his part, but lets not forget that he wasn't the founder of this exploit, nor was he the first to release the info to others.
if you are going to ban anyone, track down the the person who first discovered this, and make an example of him. not someone who was given the information and used it for his own entertainment.
everyone who used this on a server that was not their own, whether it was for "testing" or not, deserves the same ban time as the others, period.
i have to admit now(not because i want to be let off easily, but because i want to leave with a clear conscience.) i used this exploit to crash around 5-6 US servers, that had atleast 10+ people. so i will be expecting a ban anytime soon, and am anxious to see what the ban time will be for this infraction. i also, have to admit that i used ZGH and this ban will be on top of the 32 day ban i will receive when jitspoe gets settled and checks his logs.
that is all for now.
your lovable soft drink,
coLa
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Very well played