Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: Edgecrusher on December 20, 2007, 03:28:07 AM
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Yes, this again links to threads Sonny crashing servers and Matter of opinion.
This time I urge you not to post about what happend. I don't know exactly why the thread Matter of opinion was locked, I wasn't able to participate anymore in that thread last nigh because my body wanted to catch some sleep.
What is my goal here you ask?
As I stated above, I don't want for people to post anymore on that subject, more or less all have been said with one exepction. We haven't heard Sonnys point of view and also I'd like for committee members to post their opinions here.
I'll try to give a quick facts:
- we know who started crashing the servers
- we know who took the blame for it, and that person didn't started crashing in first place.
- we know that the issue is not black and white, it never is, but bans usually are
- we know that there are people who stick together and that they are defending their favorites, but the fact is that no matter what you do or did for PB in general, rules have to be obeyed
- we have a presedan - Sonnys 32 day ban
-we don't have any insight on punishment for the others
- we don't know what is committee doing to resolve this issue
- we don't know is this going to have a closure, or will it be swept away - this is the main part I started this topic
I ask again, please do not post anymore on that subject, it'll be considered off topic and the thread will be locked. I ask for Sonny, committee members mods and anyone who would like to admit something that they have done on this matter (like coLa, there's a man with principles who came out to disclose his laundry)and have not said it openly to give their voices, opinions with EVIDENCES, and reasonable course of action.
Community is divided on this matter, if committee fails to resolve this quick and most of all fair I think that time will come to question integrity of committee and persons elected for it.
Please, I don't want to lock this topic so if you don't fall into any of group mentioned above, do not post.
Edited for early morning, might edit more - grammar wise
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Also I'd like to add - if you have anything to say to me you can always contact me by PM here or on IRC - #team_qehs
DO NOT POST IT HERE!!!
This topic wasn't made for that.
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...so this is a topic for us not to talk about the situation? I think the last topic being locked kind of hinted that the discussion's run it's course.
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The discussion hasn't run its course though, because nothing has been done, and there has been plenty of time.
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The discussion hasn't run its course though, because nothing has been done, and there has been plenty of time.
You've been absent from the forums for a while, so you haven't had the chance to notice that anytime the committee is involved, it usually tacks on about 10 days to decisions process until all parties are have submitted their vote and they've come to some sort of unanimous decision. This is the price that we all pay for having having elected members of our community be part of the decision making process. I know, I know... Sonny was banned without any sort of formal committee decision, but this is something that needs to be addressed to and responded by jitspoe, not any member of the committee.
I think that the best thing for you to do personally would be to voice your opinion with someone who is a member of the committee which might actually listen to you (two names pop into mind, you can probably figure it out). These threads are just going to keep getting flame-locked, anyway.
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Let it be my friend... That's still senseless, because no one know the real story. I'm fine with a 32day global ban. I will enjoy my time without dp². I hope jitspoe will fix this bug in the next build or pretest version. I'm hopeful that the guy's who found a bug next time immediately report this to jitspoe.
How long i will get a ban? I read that the committee will decide this. PM me please or post here.
www.Leezerz.com (http://www.Leezerz.com)
edit: I can deal with my English skillz. I hope u can do the same...
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Why don't you post the real story Sonny so that eveyone understands what happened from your viewpoint?
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Because I don't want. It's the pure dissipation of my invaluable energy. I'm not interested to see more player's banned. I think you do the same. There are a lot of acquaintance person's who crashed server's. I can recur me. I'm fine with a 32day global ban. But please don't ban me from mIRC #paintball and this forum. I never flame or spam there. No reason for that. And i think you have no reason to ban me from there. I think it isn't necessary to ban Leezerz from the community.
-Sonny
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Very well. I wish you would explain but that is your choice.
Thanks for the response.
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The whole story ?
http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=10713.20
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Why you want to hear(read) my viewpoint? Only for banning more players? I'm sure that can't be your wish. I'm a fair guy with decency, lordly and honesty. I think's it's unequable to ban more players for that. I think it's the right order to global ban me. I agree and deal with it. Please lock this thread. This is the end of this discussion. Thanks to all who defend me. I respect you. <3 I wish u all a merry Christmas time and many presents.
-Sonny
@viper: I think KnacK and the commitee are more interested to know who crash server's. But don't whistle-blowing viper. <3
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Sonny,
I have personally been accused of being one sided and playing favorites. In order to make the most educated decisions possible in the committee we try to gather all sides and debate it. I am not looking at you point a finger at anyone else.
I guess we will have to accept your response.
Thanks
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I would like to keep this thread opened for the time beeing, hopefully to the time when committee resolve this and post their explanation here, because they were elected from the players, for the players and I wanna know the reasons on any action taken.
Makes me sad that Viper told the true story and we all know what happend afterwards. Alot of people crashed servers. No matter their intensions, verdict must be swift and fair for all.
I'm sorry Sonny you still don't wanna say what happend, I hope you will change your mind.
Please, no flaming, we now know all viewpoints. Keep it civil.
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Why you want to hear(read) my viewpoint? Only for banning more players? I'm sure that can't be your wish. I'm a fair guy with decency, lordly and honesty. I think's it's unequable to ban more players for that. I think it's the right order to global ban me. I agree and deal with it. Please lock this thread. This is the end of this discussion. Thanks to all who defend me. I respect you. <3 I wish u all a merry Christmas time and many presents.
-Sonny
@viper: I think KnacK and the commitee are more interested to know who crash server's. But don't whistle-blowing viper. <3
Nobodys arguing your ban... everyone knows you deserve it... the question is
What about everybody else?
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Nobodys arguing your ban... everyone knows you deserve it... the question is
What about everybody else?
Working on it. Like I've told you many times, explicitly.
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That's why I wanna keepe this thread opend. So that committee can say why did they gave the verdict they'll give.
So we, the people can see the exact reason, and understand what are you actually dooing in there.
Like worst senteces ever...
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Let it be guy's. It's enough to ban me....
Sonny, you did a bad thing, and deserve a ban. How can you even justify what you just said? Are you just trying to make yourself sound sympathetic, as if you did nothing wrong? As if it was wrong to ban someone for crashing peoples servers? People are not protesting to release your ban, just for equality, so just remember that ok.
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Let it be guy's. It's enough to ban me....
Lekky what are you talking about? He means he doesnt care who else gets banned and if they do get banned and that hes fine with only himself getting banned...
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Wow quit deleting posts and hiding behind your admin power... You guys are too afraid to leave Y2Js posts up... cowardice
His post, and this post, wll be removed as they are NOT on topic.
You think I am a forum nazi? I am now going to live up to the roll that you portray me to be.
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Let it be guy's. It's enough to ban me....
Your persistent urgency in preventing the banning of others is becoming a little odd.
He means he doesnt care who else gets banned
Of course he cares, but for the right reasons? I'm starting to think otherwise...
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idk P!nk i've gotten to know sonny quite well... he seems like a genuinely good guy...
I dont think theres a mass conspiracy behind this.
I will be mad however if sk89, brock and any other server crashers are not banned as well
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idk P!nk i've gotten to know sonny quite well... he seems like a genuinely good guy...
I dont think theres a mass conspiracy behind this.
The way he acted while crashing the servers seemed to point to the opposite of being a nice person, but perhaps you know him better. And I'm not looking for a mass conspiracy, if I ever act like that, it's done sarcastically. In this case, I have simply been wondering if a few of his friends took part in the server crashing (which is not unlikely, a lot of people were doing it), and he is trying to keep them from being banned.
In either case, it doesn't really matter, but Knack's name could be cleared up easier if Sonny's story were told.
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His post, and this post, wll be removed as they are NOT on topic.
Since your post will probably be deleted:
http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=10809.0
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P!nk not trying to argue... but yeah if he's got enough dignity to say idc if im banned, i just want to run my servers and hold this tournament thats different
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...If you guys can ban him from his own servers, thats just retarded.
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No it isn't retarded, because if he didn't get banned from his servers he would just hack there, and noobs and other ppl who aren't appreciative of how hard jits has worked on this game would take avantage of it, pick up on it, and go and make their own servers. Then this game just wouldn't be sane anymore and dp would fall apart. That's the bottom line
I don't have anything against sonny but people are right, he should of tested it once than immediately told jitspoe. He wants to take his ban like a man so let him have it. He asked for it and he should get it. As for the others that used it they need to be banned, and sonny's plea for them to get off the hook should be ignored. Cuz if people hack or cheat or whatever you want to call it and don't get in trouble because one man wants to take the heat for it,... well thats just BS because if they don't get in trouble, and i do for hacking (which i never have hacked,or tried,or will) that is unfair and unjust. Give them their bans and let it go.
-erad
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What? in gods name that is less justified than Y2J Being forum banned...
Hacking his own servers? he didnt hack... WHY WOULD HE CRASH HIS OWN SERVERS HE PAYS FOR...
Think before you talk... if i had 150 admins in a server id just bind mouse1 to viewgib if i was in a bad mood...
Hes not ZGHing his own servers, and if he was who cares, theyre HIS servers.
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Well OK I take some of that back flame. I misunderstood and thought he was crashing his own servers for god knows whatever reason! but I guess not, I apologize for putting it like that. But if he did something he wasn't supposed to then he should get his ban and not be able to play, PERIOD. But what I said about how if he, or anyone else hacked on their servers jits should still lay the smackdown on their candy asses, and not allow them to do it because everybody would create their own servers and DP wouldn't be fun anymore.
Just clearing things up friend.
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How am I flaming? I'm asking Knack why SK89Q wasn't forum banned for a personal attack on me. It's a perfectly reasonable question, seeing as many people I know have been banned for the same thing. The fact that Knack refuses to address this issue proves he knows he's in the wrong for not banning him, but will not ban him because they must share a friendship of some sort. Admins should not be able to not ban their friends for breaking forum rules. Everyone knows if I would have personally attacked SK89Q in response I would be banned from the forums.
I'm simply asking Knack why he is so much of a coward, and I have the backing to call him that, as i have now asked him at least 10 times, why SK89Q wasn't banned, and he won't address the issue.
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Ahh crap nvm I read flames post wrong.
What? in gods name that is less justified than Y2J Being forum banned...
No one was flaming anyone. sorry for that. im tired, time to go to bed.
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I really dont have to explain anything to you.
I hope it makes you feel better calling me a coward.
Don't like it? Bring it to Jit's attention.
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I kinda have ta agree with Y2J on this one. After reading I agree that sk89q should be banned.
Shouldnt everyone be treated fairly here?
C'mon knack just do the right thing and ban him.
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It's not just me that doesn't agree with it Knack, it's a lot of people.
It isn't right that you don't ban everyone for breaking the rules, you just ban those you don't like.
But hey, if I was 60, probably divorced, and the highlight of my life was being an admin of the DP forums all day, deleting post Y2J makes to make myself look better, I guess I would be an arrogant excretory opening on here also.
And let me add, it doesn't make me feel better calling you a coward, that's just a simple fact that you have proven. It'd make me feel better knowing we had admins that weren't so biased and would actually enforce the rules on others than skater and bob.
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Replace Sonny with Y2J, leave sk89q, and replace the committee as a whole with Knack. Vola. Is that the point you're making, Y2J, as far as possible bias? Or not. :X
I'm asking this because walking into this thread is like walking into a tornado.
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Y2J, I understand you are upset, but really try not to bring someones personal life into an argument, because that would be and is a very crude act. Also, since I have commented on other threads on this topic before, I believe that what you are fighting for is wrong. Sonny has admitted to the crashing of servers and accepted his ban without protest, which is the right thing to do. But now, you fight for others Such as Sk89q and Queenie, to have equal ban times to Sonny, and I for one think this is an outrageous notion. To my knowledge, Sk89q and Queenie were part of the original "exploit testing team" more or less and helped bring this command into light. They also stated both before and after crashing their ONE server a piece that they were testing the exploit out. They committed harmless acts crashing their own servers, and that doesn't count, but they each crashed 1 other server that did not effect anyone. I know Sk89q's GT server he crashed was on a restart script and had 0 people in it, and did no harm. Now you say that one should be banned for 1 server, because it is equal to 10 servers, and although what sk89q and queenie did wasn't exactly correct, i say "heres to the men who did what was considered wrong, in order to do what they knew was right...[nods]...what they knew was right." (national treasure)
And also, If you feel so strongly about their being banned, I believe you will get no where arguing for equal ban times, but rather by arguing for a lesser ban time for that one server that "they knew was right"
-Cusoman
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Actually I crashed several more. But still, the servers were restarted, were any lives lost?
You do the math.
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P!nk, no in the sense that Sonny is currently the only one banned for the act, while others have admitted to it, and been caught doing it, thus it's not right for him to have been banned so long prior to the others. Once a decision is reached, then ban. Don't ban one person, leave the others unbanned, and then sit around for a week threatening action on the others. And I believe that is a failure on the committee. Maybe not personal bias, as much as the committee being in general useless and unfair, even though it was supposed to be taking care of these issues.
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Ahh crap nvm I read flames post wrong.
No one was flaming anyone. sorry for that. im tired, time to go to bed.
nah my bad... im just frustrated today lol and needed to vent anger... so i took it out on forums.. lol sorry erad
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How am I flaming? I'm asking Knack why SK89Q wasn't forum banned for a personal attack on me.
And in the process you've flamed knack and others. At this point, I don't think sk89q should be banned from the forums at all, since you clearly deserve whatever you said.
That aside, sk89q's acted very well in the past. He contributes to the game and helps those who need help. You, on the other hand, hardly seem to be worth having around. I think he can be forgiven for letting some things slip. But you really have to get off this. Everyone knows what happened, everyone knows sk89q insulted you, and everyone knows he hasn't been banned yet. Maybe he will get banned, maybe he won't. But either way, whining about it in every other post you make isn't going to make your case look any better.
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Also, since I have commented on other threads on this topic before, I believe that what you are fighting for is wrong. Sonny has admitted to the crashing of servers and accepted his ban without protest, which is the right thing to do. But now, you fight for others Such as Sk89q and Queenie, to have equal ban times to Sonny, and I for one think this is an outrageous notion. To my knowledge, Sk89q and Queenie were part of the original "exploit testing team" more or less and helped bring this command into light. They also stated both before and after crashing their ONE server a piece that they were testing the exploit out. They committed harmless acts crashing their own servers, and that doesn't count, but they each crashed 1 other server that did not effect anyone. I know Sk89q's GT server he crashed was on a restart script and had 0 people in it, and did no harm. Now you say that one should be banned for 1 server, because it is equal to 10 servers, and although what sk89q and queenie did wasn't exactly correct, i say "heres to the men who did what was considered wrong, in order to do what they knew was right...[nods]...what they knew was right." (national treasure)
And also, If you feel so strongly about their being banned, I believe you will get no where arguing for equal ban times, but rather by arguing for a lesser ban time for that one server that "they knew was right"
-Cusoman
you must have missed my last post before the last topic was locked, you might want to go back and read it. this crashing of servers is not something as small as creating multiple accounts. therefor it should not be treated as such. i do realize that MOST of the servers that were crashed were on restart scripts, but does that make it any less worse? no. each time a server is crashed, restart script not, it takes time for it to come back online. who knows, that 1 single time could have messed with the config of the server. that would bring the admin to waste his precious time in fixing the problems that someone did because he wanted to "test" something that he was unsure would work or not.
like i said before if these "crashers" would have done it on their own servers, this would be a totally different story. but they didn't. instead, they went onto other peoples servers and tested this exploit causing them to crash. handing out shorter bans for people who only did it once or twice as opposed 10-15 times, would not justify these actions. this is a serious problem and should be dealt with accordingly.
as stated before, i don't believe a 32 day ban is the best solution. but then again it does fit the crime. i just hope you don't treat this like a multiple account infraction, because it should be handled in a more serious manner. no matter the amount of servers crashed, every person affiliated should be banned equally.
your lovable soft drink.
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/me hugs coLa and !kbs all of you from every channel possible
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And in the process you've flamed knack and others. At this point, I don't think sk89q should be banned from the forums at all, since you clearly deserve whatever you said.
That aside, sk89q's acted very well in the past. He contributes to the game and helps those who need help. You, on the other hand, hardly seem to be worth having around. I think he can be forgiven for letting some things slip. But you really have to get off this. Everyone knows what happened, everyone knows sk89q insulted you, and everyone knows he hasn't been banned yet. Maybe he will get banned, maybe he won't. But either way, whining about it in every other post you make isn't going to make your case look any better.
lmfao. since everyone loves to bring real life situations into the forums, i should too. but i won't, because the justice system is so flawed it's not even worth it. this reminds me of celebrities and drug dealers that pay off judges and cops to be let off the hook. lmfao. no matter if sk89q has contributed to the game/forum or not, he should have to follow the same rules as everyone else. i've seen people get banned for defending themselves. it's sad really. sk89q deserves a forum ban for what he said, plain and simple. and so does y2j for what he said to knack. but it is likely that only y2j will be banned and not sk89q. looks like the justice system is not the only thing that is flawed. =\
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/me personally attacks coLa and Y2J... ban him
<3 coLa this week, no homo
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haha.
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LOL ;D I'm glad in the midst of an argument everyone is still friends :) But cola, I did read your post, and here is my take on things.
You speedhack for 1 second and you, by the current system, get a 32 day ban.
You speedhack for 30 years, 3 days, and 3 hours, and you get a 32 day ban.
What i believe is because these infractions are so serious, this should be treated different than any other type of ban, and should, as I said earlier, not be treated in a Black and White fashion. You believe that no matter the amount, you should be banned equally, but I must reiterate that 1 (or perhaps in Queenies case 2-3) does not equal 10. I would like to know just how many servers Sonny personally crashed, and how many he did not crash and was blamed for, because i believe those numbers are necessary for comparison to other number of crashes.
Sonny's Ban length/# of servers crash ratio should be a standard, and all others that crashed servers, outside of their own, should get a ban sentence in correlation with that ratio. Any crashing that goes on from now on should be a 32 day ban no question, but because of the time and the lack of knowledge when some of the test crashes were made, and because of the confusing scenario, and because the "test" crashers did benefit the community with their knowledge, they should not be banned with 32 days, but in fact should be banned via ratio due to the strange and most likely never to occur again scenario.
Btw I do love that whole "lovable soft drink" thing you have going on cola.
-Cusoman
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And in the process you've flamed knack and others. At this point, I don't think sk89q should be banned from the forums at all, since you clearly deserve whatever you said.
That aside, sk89q's acted very well in the past. He contributes to the game and helps those who need help. You, on the other hand, hardly seem to be worth having around. I think he can be forgiven for letting some things slip. But you really have to get off this. Everyone knows what happened, everyone knows sk89q insulted you, and everyone knows he hasn't been banned yet. Maybe he will get banned, maybe he won't. But either way, whining about it in every other post you make isn't going to make your case look any better.
Harsh, almost hurts me coming from a worthless person like you EIII, who we all know it is useless to keep around.
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zomg personal attack ban plz. :<
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Good grief, you guys make a huge deal out of anything. Sonny went and sequentially knocked a large percentage of servers offline. I have direct evidence of this. Many people, including myself, felt some sort of punishment was necessary for his malicious actions, so I gave him a global ban. He obviously knew what would happen after he did it once. There was no need to knock a bunch of servers offline. If you feel it's OK for people to run around wreaking havoc and disrupting other's ability to play the game, you're welcome to your opinion, but I'm not going to let it fly. I don't have time for this, especially right now.
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i don't believe the ban time should be dependent on the amount of servers crashed. that is an outrageous amount of time for those who did it more than once, and not enough time for the people who did it one time. there currently is no system for adding ban time according to the number of whatever it is. why bring it into play now. i know this is a new situation and it needs to be handled in a different way. but by separating ban lengths depending on the amount is not the best way to handle it. give everyone the same amount of time.
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Well, Cola, I believe a justice system should be dynamic, and with the committee being created, it recently is. To the average person, aka: you and me, bans go about the same way, but the committee was created to solve abnormal problems, which would be this one. Whenever the committee is called to duty, it is usually over a severe and contradicting scenario, and as such, rules differ by scenario. Because in this scenario, there was more harm done by certain people than others, I believe this would definitely fall under the "Committee gets involved in a complicated and dynamic situation" and as such, I believe should ban based on damage done, not based on a 'no matter what 32 day ban', because some people probably deserver 64 day bans, and others probably deserve 4-8. Since I do not actually no the # of servers crashed by whom, I am generalizing, please keep this in mind.
-Cusoman
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eh... both of us are entitled to our opinions... it could go on forever. let's just end it and see what the committee decides.
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eh... both of us are entitled to our opinions... it could go on forever.
Exactly, "matter of opinion" was my exact phrase.
We elected them because we trust that our best interest is their concern, so lets just leave this to the committee.
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Agreed, I'm done if your done. Nice little battle we had thought. Good mind exercise. ;D Hopefully the committee will end this shortly.
-Cusoman
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"mind exercise" for you, "headache" for me...
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I don't have time for this, especially right now.
To summarize what we have been talking about in all these threads:
How should the ban time be determined for all the other people that crashed servers?
Is Knack biased in banning?
Is the committee too sluggish?
And if you make a game, make it a dino game. :D
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Anyone that caused the servers to crash need to be banned. I do not care how long of a member you are of this community. That crap was so annoying and sonny told others and they did it as well I will not public say names. I do not care if you wanted to see if it was true. I do not care if you were double dared. If you did it ban them. That day was such a bullexcrement nonsense display of immaturity you would of thought DABO rose up out of no where.
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How nice that as predicted, Y2J gets banned from the forums, while those who personally attack him are still able to post.
Lets evaluate the problems this game has:
- A committee that takes to long to react to situations (hell, jitspoe could have taken 2 weeks to decide something, we don't need a committee for that)
- Yootz and Knack refusing to ban SK89Q when they saw his personal attack on me, deleting my post and edgecrusher's post that were valid arguments
- Me getting banned for a personal attack, when clearly you don't get banned for personal attacks (as sk89q didn't get)
- Unfair banning by jitspoe. I'm glad you have the evidence he crashed servers, so did many other people. BAN THEM ALL, don't ban just one.
- Knack thinking no one else shares my view, when I've seen at least 3 others post in defense of me, and if other people weren't afraid of him abusing his admin power, more would probably speak up.
If you're an admin or committee members, leave any biases you have behind, and do you job, something many of you are forgetting, which is what makes having a committee and admins like Knack so useless.
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I'll say this again. One time can be forgiven. Y2J's last several posts were all offensive. Yes, being good and helpful will get you a get-out-of-jail-free card for minor offenses. Get over it.
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I'll say this again. One time can be forgiven. Y2J's last several posts were all offensive. Yes, being good and helpful will get you a get-out-of-jail-free card for minor offenses. Get over it.
how is that the right way to handle it? that is total bias, and a load of crap. each and everyone one of us have to follow the same rules, whether it be in-game or on the forums. why should sk89q be let off the hook because he has been "good and helpful"? if you are not going to ban everyone the same way for the same reason others would be banned, then why are you a Moderator?
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I've taken a step back from all of this in the last day, and in retrospect, I think that I'm really to blame for starting all of this. The rest of this post is mainly just my intepretation of some of the events that took place.
In the original thread, people had been reporting that servers were being rampantly crashed, at first by Sonny and then quickly server admins and other players started seeing that the servers were being crashed by many players, not just Sonny.
I made a post (http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=10713.msg109552#msg109552) in response to having seen the command pop up in a couple public IRC channels. I hold no authority in this community beyond sharing administrative responsabilities on the #eR33t-Gaming servers. Our server is really the least of the entire community's concern in all of this. I had already notified every server admin I could think of with a workaround to the problem and this couldn't have been done without the help of people like Viciouz, sk89q and krewzer who had been logging, testing and determining the root cause of the problem on their and other servers. I had stepped in and threatened bans because I knew that I wasn't going to be patching the problem on my servers and because I knew that jitspoe wasn't going to have the problem fixed for my server anytime soon.
KnacK then quoted my post and elaborated on it in his (http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=10713.msg109561#msg109561). This is where I think KnacK used the wrong words, came across the wrong way, or maybe even crossed the line. KnacK is a member of the Global Moderators team on these forums, and also happens to be a committee member. I don't think that him or the other Global Moderators can be making statements like this on these forums since it does not pertain to the administration or maintenance of these forums. As a committee member, he does not represent the committee as a whole. I think everyone failed to realize that this post was nothing more than his own personal oppinion. He is one member of a ten member team of community members that were "elected" to vote on various aspects when it comes to unique situations that may or may not result in a ban. It might be fair to warn that there may be action taken against anyone that was reported crashing a server, which may have effect for people on all servers, but not that there were no excuses. Of course there are excuses, and there have to be exceptions. If not, then the committee wouldn't even exist.
This entire argument, including the numerous locked threads, flaming, forum bans and everything else was simply because it was stated by a Global Moderator and Committee Member that there would be action taken against players reported using this exploit. Whether or not these actions would result in a ban or not should be decided by the committee as a whole, and jitspoe will make the official post in the Cheater Reports and Bans forum.
KnacK, y00tz and jitspoe deleting posts, locking threads and banning people from the forums as part of diffusing the situation is part of their responsabilities. People got way too caught up in defending other's actions, and voicing their concerns with the action that the committee should take. Some of the people who replied in these threads are members of the committee, but everyone has to remember that one, or a couple members do not speak on behalf of the entire committee and its actions. These members may individually speak with players and server admins through PMs on the forums or IRC, and possibly on Ventrilo/TS2 with these people as part of an investigation that the committee is conducting, but their posts on the forums or what they say on IRC is never to be taken as something said on behalf of the entire committee.
Please leave all Global Bans for all activities except detected cheater related issues up to the committee since that is their responsability. Please leave all local bans up to the server admins so that they can manage their own server as they see fit. Please do not think that retroactively treating this issue with parity in all bans is the best solution. If I have to see someone like sk89q or Y2J walk away from this community for something that has been blown way out of proportion then I'll be pretty disapppointed.
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why should sk89q be let off the hook because he has been "good and helpful"?
You answered your own question there. Some people are easier to forgive than others because they have chosen to be good and helpful. And from what I know of the posts, sk89q's comments weren't entirely in line, but they didn't sound bannable either. If you're advocating mods crack down on those who even midly insult others, and deliver retroactive bans for those comments, you yourself would probably be banned for years by this point.
if you are not going to ban everyone the same way for the same reason others would be banned, then why are you a Moderator?
If you're talking specifically to me and not just mods in general, I'm flattered.
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If you're talking specifically to me and not just mods in general, I'm flattered.
Someone, please, drain his ego, it's suffocating us all. :(
I've taken a step back from all of this in the last day, and in retrospect, I think that I'm really to blame for starting all of this.
I really don't think that's true.
edit: with all of this talk about who is to blame for what, this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS7aULdHo24&feature=related) seems so fitting.
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Please leave all local bans up to the server admins so that they can manage their own server as they see fit.
This is the stance we (DarkP Server Admins) are taking at the moment; we are the victims and it is really up to us and the committee to decide the necessary action to take. Our personal strategy is to leave this up to the committee to decide what they will do, after this, if we feel it necessary, we will start taking our own measures against the offenders who maliciously attacked OUR server. We are more than willing to help the committee by providing information or logs from our server.
Personally, although i feel everyone has the right to state their opinion, i think the committee should only take into account the arguments put forward by the server owners. If there was any abusive behaviour between forum members then this is a separate subject, and should be treated as such. If people wish to make complaints then email a committee member, but don't drag this through the public forum, it will only serve to hamper your complaint, and legitimate points can be lost in flaming and subjective drivel.
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I say let the server admins decide what they want to make the punishments... and let them make them based solely off what they want to do...
Leave the committee out of it.
Let the server admins ban brock sk89 and sonny accordingly...
I dont even see why this issue needs the committee... dont global ban them... let Lekky XBain Reed T3RR0R15T Picasso and Sonny pick the ban times for the people who crashed THEIR servers...
anyone else feel the same way?
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Yah Man, I feel the same way brother.
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You answered your own question there. Some people are easier to forgive than others because they have chosen to be good and helpful.
so do you believe this to be the right way to moderate a forum? any real Mod would have banned him, regardless if he is an "outstanding" member or not. if you are going to ban one person for a mild attack on someone else. ban them all. don't choose favorites.
If you're advocating mods crack down on those who even midly insult others, and deliver retroactive bans for those comments, you yourself would probably be banned for years by this point.
as a matter of fact i am surprised i haven't been banned for things i have said in the past. but we are not talking about me here. still to the point. thanx.
If you're talking specifically to me and not just mods in general, I'm flattered.
oh please. you and i both know you are not a Mod, so you should have known that sentence was not directed towards you. maybe next time i should specify.
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nah my bad... I'm just frustrated today lol and needed to vent anger... so i took it out on forums.. lol sorry erad
It's fine, Don't worry about it.
But anyways, I am overwhelmed at how just sick and depressing this thread has become. Y2J I'm on your side but just let it go man, Knack isn't gonna give sk89q his ban he deserves and that isn't gonna change. Just stop complaining about it until this happens again. ::)
I think everyone needs to chill and just drop it.
Lock this thread
-erad
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Sorry, it's just that you quoted me your post, and didn't really make any reference to anyone else before the mod comment. :3
I do think those that have contributed to the community should be more easily forgiven than those that haven't. They shouldn't get a free pass, but from what I know of the post, it wasn't vulgar, and wasn't even that bad. If he'd been being insulting and generally destructive in the past, it would probably be enough to ban him. But he's been nothing but helpful and constructive, so I think it's forgivable.
And yes, this thread needs to be locked, and all discussion of this topic needs to be stopped until the committee makes a decision or we get some magic new piece of information. Both sides have made their points about three times each, and no progress is being made either way.
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I smoked two whole cigarettes while reading bains entire post there. I had to clap out the syllables and sound out the words. Sometimes I even clapped 4 times the words were so big. I am exhausted =(
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I find it interesting that people think that I banned Sonny from the servers. I banned him from the forums, then unbanned him shortly after.
I only have 1 voice in 10 as to who gets a global ban.
Bain: Yes I probably should not have said that.
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OK, I was away for two days because of my job and knew that this situation will go this way again. I still hope that this thread will be kept open for reasons stated in my first post, it is why I reopened this issue again.
One thing I wanna point out. Some of the people here are asking for time level ban according to the number of servers they crashed. Well, Sonny didn't get some scale for his ban, he got 32 days immediately. So, going by the max first offense ban time, everyone should be treated equally, put aside who they are and what they do. If Knack , y00tz or Jits crashed other people servers I would ask the same thing.
Think about it, and don't flame, I'm waiting for committee to resolve this issue, to say here the result so we can all discuss it further.
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Who really cares about crashing servers... It's not like they hacked into the database and stole passwords or something. Or actually used a hack. Or even caused any long-term damage.
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All of the server admins who had their servers crashed?
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So now that they had their servers crashed, they had these outcomes:
Negative: Their server was down for several seconds, to a couple hours, depending on how long they took to restart. Maybe lost a few pub players.
Positive: Now they know how to deal with the "menace"
Am I missing anything? Because what I see there isn't really ban worthy at all. I guess it's kind of like the "banning for multiple accounts" thing too. basically people just want to ban each other.
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You are right Queenie, only last week my mate got stabbed.
Negative: No lasting damage done, few days in the hospital, maybe lost a bit of blood.
Positive: He now knows not to walk in that area in the dark by himself.
I guess its kind of like getting your phone stolen. basically people just want to put each other in prison.
(Yes thats a dumb post, but I made it for a reason.)
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Queenie, as far as I'm concerned you are on thin ice as you're one of those intelligent players who decided to repeatedly 'test' the exploit on lots of servers including mine. If the commitee doesn't dole out adequate punishment to all involved in my eyes, then everyone even suspected of it are going to be permanently banned from my servers. I nor any of the other server admins pay our money for people like you to casually attack our servers, regardless of how long they were down.
The only person who may have mitigated their actions in some small way is sk89q I believe, however I still think a ban of some description is in order.
I don't really care what you think about how minor your actions were, people like bain and snipen put a LOT of money into hosting servers for ingrates like you, and you just take the piss out of their charity.
- Dagless
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Who cares about your servers. Does it really look like I'm going to be playing on some newbie pub german server?
Enough. It's posts like these that make a mess out of the forums
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One thing I wanna point out. Some of the people here are asking for time level ban according to the number of servers they crashed. Well, Sonny didn't get some scale for his ban, he got 32 days immediately. So, going by the max first offense ban time, everyone should be treated equally, put aside who they are and what they do. If Knack , y00tz or Jits crashed other people servers I would ask the same thing.
exactly what i have been saying. good man.
Who really cares about crashing servers... It's not like they hacked into the database and stole passwords or something. Or actually used a hack. Or even caused any long-term damage.
you never know what could have happened. like i said before, by crashing the server, somehow the config or something else could have gotten messed up. that could have wasted plenty of the admins time to fix. excrement happens, and i wouldn't have been surprised if something along those lines did happen by crashing a server.
You are right Queenie, only last week my mate got stabbed.
Negative: No lasting damage done, few days in the hospital, maybe lost a bit of blood.
Positive: He now knows not to walk in that area in the dark by himself.
I guess its kind of like getting your phone stolen. basically people just want to put each other in prison.
(Yes thats a dumb post, but I made it for a reason.)
i still don't get why some of you insist on bringing real life incidents in for comparison. what does an online server have anything to do with a person being stabbed?
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Brock, you are wrong, no one was jerk to you.
As did y00tz said.
Please keep it civil. Much harm can be done for locking again this kind of topic Y2J made and Viciouz, than no harm can be done to act like grown up human beings. Keep it open minded, that goes for all.
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What was it that sk89q said that everybody is making such a huge deal about, anyway?
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It's more what he have done.
He insulted Y2J, that is a fact.
He crashed the servers, that is a fact (so have many others).
I'm actually waiting for committee to resolve this, it may have been blown out of proportion as some suggested, but this will be a really good test for them. Since they represent the community as a whole, and there are two diferent opinions on the subject, I'm very interested on how will they resolve this issue.
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This subject about who should be banned or shouldn't be banned should stop now. Everything just keeps going in cirlces and is just going to result in further bans. No good cn come from this.
However, Good to see you standing up for what you belive edge. =]
~MT
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It's more what he have done.
He insulted Y2J, that is a fact.
He crashed the servers, that is a fact (so have many others).
I'm actually waiting for committee to resolve this, it may have been blown out of proportion as some suggested, but this will be a really good test for them. Since they represent the community as a whole, and there are two diferent opinions on the subject, I'm very interested on how will they resolve this issue.
You talk of equality with regards to bans, but yet you protest for the same punishment to be given to someone who crashes perhaps 12 servers many with players on, and someone who crashed one empty server.
I don't see how that can possibly be equal. Try to reserve your bias when you form judgement.
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Lekky, what you wrote above doesn't makes any sense.
I just wanna same ban time for all.
Besides, we talked all together over 3 hours on irc about that and there's no need to proceed with this further. I wrote what I believe in. As I said to you last night/this morning, I wont change my mind, and I know I wont change yours.
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Lekky, what you wrote above doesn't makes any sense.
Makes perfect sense to me, but then I can see both sides of the argument.
I tend to agree with Lekky's consequentialist view.
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I agree with lekky, what sk89q is just not the same as what others did. Besides, he explained why he ACCIDENTALY crashed one of gt's (?) servers.
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it wasn't an accident. he went onto the GT server and typed the command. that is no accident.
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I agree, it was not an accident, but i don't believe it was done with malicious intent.
Additionally, sk89q apologised immediately after he crashed the server. I have not received one apology from those who attacked my server, infact all i have received is abuse and denial.
So then, is it fair to treat someone who maliciously attacked several populated servers and shows no remorse, the same as someone who 'tested' the command on an empty server and immediately apologised?
I'm not going to debate what punishment should be given, that is for the committee to decide for now, but i do believe the severity should reflect the circumstances in each case.
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COMMITTEE NEEDS TO GET OFF THEIR ASS. ISSUE OUT BANS AND CALL IT A DAY. Way to long of a delay for no outcome of this. Swear to God this has me agitated. So get the bans out get this behind us as of right now nothing has happened. We look like Poland fighting Germany in WWII basically just getting walked all over.
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Its the wrong time of year for fast decisions unfortunately. Apologies for that but I hope you guys can understand.
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Okay. Let me sum up: The committee want to ban all guy's who crashing server's. Right? Okay. Go further. The committee ban me, viper, QueeNiE and Kongo. We all know there are more guy's who crashing server's. If I am correct remember minimum 8-10 players. Will more follow? I don't think so. Maybe the committee have screwed up? I can remember that a lot of committee members tell me: "all or no one". I don't want fairness. I want a better committee. I don't have anything against the committee members. But please think about my suggestion. Fewer committee members and more power for them. I can't understand how a committee with so intelligent members making so bad decision's (I mean this business).
I think viper and kongo still waiting of their log's where you can see that he past in the console ******. All what you can see it that playersX connect to a full pub server and after 2 minutes the server go down. But where you can really see(read) that playerX crashing the server? It's a pub with a lot of players. Where is demonstration for that?
And what about sk89q? I search in this forum for a reason why he's still unbanned. All what I have found is that he "only test it on his own server". I would be really disappointed when I test a speed hack on my own server and I get a ban (I only want to know how fast it can be). Yes I know, using an exploit to crash servers isn't a hack. But, it will be equally punished. Why he don't use the "Start A New Game" button? Hacks and exploit's can be tested offline. I don't have anythink against sk89q. And I'm sure that he will be not pissed about a ban. Maybe he not give a darn about (similar to me). But, same legislation for all and same punishment for all.
-Sonny
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Point-by-point rebuttal time, in a sarcastic manner! Because that's just about what this post warrants.
Okay. Let me sum up: The committee want to ban all guy's who crashing server's. Right? Okay. Go further. The committee ban me, viper, QueeNiE and Kongo. We all know there are more guy's who crashing server's. If I am correct remember minimum 8-10 players. Will more follow? I don't think so. Maybe the committee have screwed up?
You're putting words in the committee's mouth, then saying they're going too far? If you're complaining about you being the only one banned, then maybe you should consider that the committee might still be talking about it? Because maybe it's a time of year where people are more distracted by family matters or otherwise? I don't know, that might slow things down some. Maybe a bit. And hell, getting nine people to agree on something is hard enough in the first place. Wait for the committee to ACTUALLY MAKE A DECISION, then criticize it.
I can remember that a lot of committee members tell me: "all or no one". I don't want fairness. I want a better committee
You don't want things to be fair. That's crazy talk. Unless you just wanted to see your opinions and decisions go through, as opposed to ones that would be reasonable. Yeah, that seems like a pretty safe assumption about what's going on here.
I don't have anything against the committee members. But please think about my suggestion. Fewer committee members and more power for them. I can't understand how a committee with so intelligent members making so bad decision's (I mean this business).
Fewer members would make decisions go faster, but less points of view would potentially make the decisions more biased. Redundancy = fairness = good decisions.
I think viper and kongo still waiting of their log's where you can see that he past in the console ******. All what you can see it that playersX connect to a full pub server and after 2 minutes the server go down. But where you can really see(read) that playerX crashing the server? It's a pub with a lot of players. Where is demonstration for that?
That'd be why playerX isn't banned yet. And perhaps won't be. But who knows? The committee hasn't made a decision yet.
And what about sk89q? I search in this forum for a reason why he's still unbanned. All what I have found is that he "only test it on his own server". I would be really disappointed when I test a speed hack on my own server and I get a ban (I only want to know how fast it can be). Yes I know, using an exploit to crash servers isn't a hack. But, it will be equally punished. Why he don't use the "Start A New Game" button? Hacks and exploit's can be tested offline. I don't have anythink against sk89q. And I'm sure that he will be not pissed about a ban. Maybe he not give a darn about (similar to me). But, same legislation for all and same punishment for all.
I'm not sure why sk89q didn't use more private ways to test it either, but here's an overview of what went on (in case you missed it):
- You, sk89q, and others found out about the exploit.
- You crashed one or more servers with people playing on them- disconnecting them, disrupting their game, and generally abusing them.
- Sk89q crashed an empty server, affecting no one and potentially affecting very few people.
- Sk89q apoligized...
- You did not.
Sk89q's offense was a small one. You may have both gone through the same motions, but what you KNOWINGLY caused was much more drastic than what sk89q did. I agree that those who commit similar crimes should get similar punishments, but you and sk89q did completely different things. Your actions were with the intent of causing harm- it certainly doesn't look like sk89q's were.
To sum it up:
I'm sorry you're upset that sk89q isn't banned. I'm sorry you're upset that the committee is slow. But if you take one thing away from this post, this should be it:
You and sk89q committed different crimes of different severity.
I do hope you can see the impact of that.
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I find it strange that people say I didn't apologize for crashing servers. Sure, I guess I had a roundabout way of saying it, but I did in a sense 'say sorry'.
Not that I want my ban time removed, but I just want you all to know. I never denied anything. I never continued abuse. I hope you all can see that I'm really not all that bad.
Anyway, considering the ban time of me: Leave it. I don't want to argue it. I deserve it.
Considering the ban time of sk89q: Who cares. He definitely doesn't deserve a ban. Let's leave it at that. I could go on and on for a long time with evidence to support myself. But I need not. If you want any more proof, read above.
Please, don't post on this thread again. Unless you have a valid argument to put on the table.
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Please, don't post on this thread again. Unless you have a valid argument to put on the table.
if you want valid arguments go read every thread about this. there are plenty to go around.
Considering the ban time of sk89q: Who cares. He definitely doesn't deserve a ban. Let's leave it at that.
he does deserve a ban, but being that the committee is totally bias, he won't be receiving one. which is pretty sad. equality is definitely non-existent here.
i honestly don't know why myself and the others who confessed to crashing servers will not be banned. what do you need logs for? do you think people are going to lie and admit to crashing a server or two, when they actually didn't?
i hope the banning is not over and EVERYONE involved will receive their punishment.
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if you want valid arguments go read every thread about this. there are plenty to go around.
he does deserve a ban, but being that the committee is totally bias, he won't be receiving one. which is pretty sad. equality is definitely non-existent here.
i honestly don't know why myself and the others who confessed to crashing servers will not be banned. what do you need logs for? do you think people are going to lie and admit to crashing a server or two, when they actually didn't?
i hope the banning is not over and EVERYONE involved will receive their punishment.
Equal bans for unequal actions? There's a difference between crashing servers for fun and attempting to get to the bottom of a problem so a solution could be found. Sk89q was doing the latter. I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on getting him banned.
It's also not possible to ban everyone involved. There are likely a number of people who went undetected, and I don't feel it would be fair to punish the people who admitted and not the ones that didn't. Also, somebody could just say "wait, I was just kidding - I never really crashed any servers," and there would be nothing to go on but his word. So, basically, what we're left with is the cases where the perpetrator was logged and the admin has reported it.
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he does deserve a ban, but being that the committee is totally bias, he won't be receiving one.
Please do note that just because the committee's decision isn't the same as yours doesn't mean it's a biased one.
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Equal bans for unequal actions? There's a difference between crashing servers for fun and attempting to get to the bottom of a problem so a solution could be found.
So than if i hack in 10 matches with an aimbot and a speedhack...
and someone speedhacks in only 1 server...
we'll get different ban lengths?
.no
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In both cases, the offenders have the intent to do harm.
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what if he speedhacked on one server to help solve a problem
edit: just showing the hole in flames arguement
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Please do note that just because the committee's decision isn't the same as yours doesn't mean it's a biased one.
and here comes Eiii to suckle on the power teat once again. good for you.
please do note that what i am saying is not directed towards you. you are not on the committee and you are not a mod. i don't care what you have to say to me.
i am not the only one who believes sk89q should have been banned, but obviously, i am the only one still fighting for it. you guys are protecting him however you can. THE MOMENT HE JOINED THE GT SERVER TO "TEST" THIS EXPLOIT, HE BECAME JUST LIKE THE REST. regardless if the server was occupied or not. the server was not his own. but whatever, i guess i am done. it won't change. i am clearly wasting my time and everyone elses. good day. and keep up the bad work.
also jitspoe, would you mind PMing me? i would like to discuss why i have not received a ban for using zgh. i thought it was detected. if not, i'd be happy to provide you with a link to where i found it. thanks.
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I dont see where intent has ever mattered before... why should it matter now
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because its a unique situation
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Intent is irrelevant unless you can get evidence of the action. In all other cases, it definitely plays a role, multiple accounts being the most recent example.
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To make your comparison more accurate:
If somebody speedhacked once on an empty server with the intent to try to help find a way to prevent it, then it's lilkely he would go unbanned.
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The flaw in jitspoes story is that speedhacks are undetected anyways, so he'd get off with a clean slate no matter what..
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The flaw in jitspoes story is that speedhacks are undetected anyways, so he'd get off with a clean slate no matter what..
As were the exploits at first, so it's really a pretty good comparison. If somebody posted on the forums apologizing that he used a speedhack on an empty server, would he be banned? Probably not. Somebody would have to catch him in the action.
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... but a server owner could notice his/her server getting shutdown after someone connected and research it further
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It's also not possible to ban everyone involved. There are likely a number of people who went undetected, and I don't feel it would be fair to punish the people who admitted and not the ones that didn't. Also, somebody could just say "wait, I was just kidding - I never really crashed any servers," and there would be nothing to go on but his word. So, basically, what we're left with is the cases where the perpetrator was logged and the admin has reported it.
Weird, why was Brock banned then for 32 since he addmited for doing it?
This has become a scharade, clearly there are some people with protection and cover. I'm not saying that sk89g or any other is a bad guy. Bud he did maked a mistake. So did the others. But to ban someone and others no? You can see why it looks biased. Did sk89g had authorization to crash that server? No.
Since there's no intention to be fair on this situation, I'll just lock this thread. I hoped something good will come out of this, the reason it's named Voice of community is to show that there are diferent opinions from those of committee who we elected, and also I wanted to be heard, because theres more than just Cola, Flame, Y2J... that are on the same opinion in this case. But I guess we were ignored. Well go further, protect any golden boys you wanna, it's obvious nothing can be done.
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Brock was banned because XtremeBain detected him using the exploit. There is intention to be fair, but what's considered fair is somewhat subjective. While there may be more than you four who share an opinion, I do believe it is the minority, and your attempts to rally up support have caused a lot of unnecessary ruckus on the forums. The committee is still evaluating the situation, and in a way the committee IS the voice of the community, but a small sample instead of a raging mob.
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So you just admitted subjectivity on the matter.
Minority through history always made a diference. We were not stiring up anything, or rallying support, we were voicing our opinions. Some in diferent ways but that's the point.
Personally, I feel insulted on calling us raging mob. Those words were unneccesary, since I always try to maintain my objectivity.
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That wasn't directed toward you specifically. I was referring to the community as a whole and how differing opinions can quickly get out of hand.
What is considered "fair" (the length of the bans, etc.) is, and always will be, subjective.