Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Bugs, Feature Requests, and Feedback => Topic started by: James on January 05, 2008, 12:48:36 AM
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Jitspoe is there a reason you changes the ball speed again? Not only again, but again without telling anyone leaving them to read about them in your changes doc?
It's clear it's your game, but why even bother making it for the community if you make changes without telling people? You already changed the ball speed once to make this game laser tag without telling anyone, then you went ahead and added impact grenades without telling anyone. Now this? Sick. Also, this wasn't even up to be voted on in the next build features thread.
To think you could of done something more productive like fix the random spawns.
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*** 1.903 build 151 ***
- Defaulted sv_forcesky to 1. 12:36 AM 7/10/2007
- Defaulted sv_minclientbuild to 19. 12:29 AM 7/11/2007
- Fixed sending of name when doing a global ban check. 12:53 AM 8/2/2007
- Made the global ban check only happen on public dedicated servers or servers with sv_login enabled. 12:53 AM 8/2/2007
- Prints the IP address to the console when a player joins the game. 4:18 PM 10/25/2007
- Fixed players not getting credit for carrying multiple flags at match end (2 flag overtime bug) 4:08 PM 11/8/2007
- Tweaked default base ball_speed from 2790 (300 fps) to 2660 (285 fps). 1:29 AM 11/27/2007
- Tweaked barrel speed increases (decreased about 8%). 3:26 AM 11/28/2007
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Stand corrected, thanks Jes.
Wait... we're talking about the *default* speed? ::)
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Yeah so now we'll have servers with the old speed and new speed with no indication as to which setting it's at.
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I would imagine only new servers with new configs based off of b20 configs (or servers who recreated their configs) would have the new ball_speed,
since I think the default configuration file defines the ball speed.
EDIT: Scratch that. I don't think it does.
Although, I don't agree with "To think you could of done something more productive like fix the random spawns." Changing one constant isn't very hard compared to writing and debugging code.
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Maybe now it's finally time to include some more variables in the server browser, but isn't it likely that we've been playing with multiple balls speeds before?
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I tried changing the ball speed in my configuration file but it doesn't take effect. The server still has ball_speed set to 2660 when I start it back up. However, I can change it via RCON after the server's running.
I wonder how many people notice this change.
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good thing he changed it cuz getting shot up close at 300fps hurts, 285 hurts a little less, so I'll be less afraid of getting shot now.... thanks Jitspoe!
(p.s. - I know this game is not lifelike, but guns are always set lower than 300fps, so 285 is more lifelike [according to our field rules anyways :P] :P)
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i havn't noticed it at all. when i play 4 fun i will adjust it on my server to things way faster to that but still dont realise it at all
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I think further development/tweaking should be geared towards making the game more appealing to new players. If decreasing ball speed facilitates this, (maybe?) so be it. But I doubt thats the case.
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Please keep your mouth shut if you have no idea what you're talking about.
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The committee doesn't decide on features/tweaks. Thats what the Feature Vote Thread is for (and hopefully soon sk89q's feature vote page).
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It's a tweak. Surely something as minor as tweaking the ball speed by 15 fps, which he has set a precedent for, wouldn't require explanation/voting. Voting = testing first anyway
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The committee doesn't decide on features/tweaks. Thats what the Feature Vote Thread is for (and hopefully soon sk89q's feature vote page).
Hm, no one mentioned the committe, I think you misread the title :P
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I think small tweaks like this should be noted in the release thread or something, but it's really not a big deal for now. And maybe some moderators shouldn't delete posts to make themselves look less foolish. ;)
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I think small tweaks like this should be noted in the release thread or something, but it's really not a big deal for now. And maybe some moderators shouldn't delete posts to make themselves look less foolish. ;)
I'll put my post back up when I get a better connection, I was trying to get a decent edit (get the bbcodes lined up) and it was just taking forever to repost/view fixes.
In Jitspoe's defense, he did put it in the change log in the docs (not in the main changelog, as I erroneously pointed out in the post Eiii is referring to) it's not like the change was completely hidden... and we are all aware now that is occured :P
James, is your problem that is wasn't properly publicized and documented, or that Jitspoe changed it to begin with?
Please spare any shtik about me not reading your post, I have read it twice now.
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Hm, no one mentioned the committe, I think you misread the title :P
Wow, I need to get to bed. :P
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I don't think you newbies understand what I'm saying or have a clue. I guarantee that the rest of the people who post on this thread won't understand what I'm talking about.
I'll give you examples.
1. Version 1.5 to 1.6, no warning was given and ball flight was changed drastically. What do you mean drastically? Think about the distance you get now with an automag, now divide that distance by 2 and give it a really big arch, that's what we were playing with before.
2. Not sure if it was in alpha b1 or a few builds after, but impact grenades. No one was told about them and you would see newbies all of a sudden with them.
3. FPS Jumping was taken out for some reason and I'm pretty sure there's some other jumping issues that were changed that jitspoe isn't mentioning. (Not sure of FPS jumping was talked about or not, I just remember being able to do it then not being able to do it instantly.)
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The impact grenades were like Build 14 dude..
Think I remember er33t whining about those because they couldn't handle the new gameplay the impact nades brought.
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I don't think consent is really required. There are reasons for tweaks. Usually the developer makes tweaks to improve game play or get closer to a game flow goal that he or she has been shooting for (pun) all along. In any instance, I don't see any major game companies posting on forums asking for consent to make a change.
The game is a fantastic game and it's free! I'm not trying to flame you or discredit you. I just think that if Jitspoe wants the game to be a certain way, it should be that way. I think he has done a great job so far.
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James, again I ask,
James, is your problem that is wasn't properly publicized and documented, or that Jitspoe changed it to begin with?
Would you rather he make changes and tell us, or just not make them to begin with? Or have community vote and discussion...?
I understand exactly what you're talking about.
Tweaking gameplay isn't unprecedented anywhere. Triple A titles get patches that affect the game... it's natural.
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I think there should be some kind of notification directed toward the community before _any_ change that affects game-play is implemented, so that discussion is allowed before hand.
Here we're talking about tweaking something just a bit (~5%), a change that is almost certainly not noticeable for the large majority of the community. I can see how some would say 'so what' / 'who cares'; as obviously this doesn't really have a widespread effect. However, why make the change at all if it is largely insignificant to the bulk of the community?
I feel like the people who are most affected by something like this are the veteran players (such as myself) who have the most familiarity with the previous 'aiming' techniques. If you will -- compare it to, say, the developers of UT2K4 releasing a patch for their game that makes the rail-gun shoot a few in-game-inches lower than normal. They've researched some game statistics, and found that the most common rail miss occurs above the enemy’s model, so they decided for the sake of game-play that they would implement a small tweak to accommodate this new information. No posts or discussions for this tweak are made, just a couple lines of text added to a .log file in the install directory.
Average Community Reaction: None. They wouldn't even notice. However, if it was finally discovered / announced on a public scale, I think the majority of the community would embrace the new patch. Hey, I can hit more rails now?! Great!
Veteran / Professional Community: There are people in every community who have spent years honing their game and hand movement to meld perfectly with the game they specialize in. All of a sudden, without warning -- they are required to make small changes to this developed skill.
Obviously our game (dp) is on a much smaller scale. People do not make a living playing dp (except Skater); however, I chose this example in an attempt to emphasize the issue on a different level.
To summarize my thoughts: The smaller group of veteran players suffer, while the bulk of the community has no noticeable impact at all. The difference between my example and this case is that there hasn't even been any such statistical evaluation done which implies a positive effect on game-play from the tweak! At least in my example there was some kind of community wide good-intent, and not just some kind of developmental OCD for no specific (or at least not specified) reason (no disrespect intended, I do truly value your continued development on this great game of ours – I just struggle to understand some of your methodology) .
Or perhaps, the point is to just continually make these little changes as small, irritating slaps to the face of players such as myself? Are you pushing to eradicate the already struggling competitive clan-scene as a whole -- in the quest of non-stop public servers, running 8 different server versions, with all kinds of different configurations, and a complete lack of standardization for the community to agree upon (and the clan scene to look toward for guidance)?
If so, you are on the right track.. :(
As a veteran of this game, I ask -- Please, just let us know if and when you plan on making changes like this in the future, so that we at least have the opportunity to discuss them in an intelligent and organized manner before things are set in stone.
Thank you.
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well put...
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Yep, that's about it.
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In Jitspoe's defense, he did put it in the change log in the docs (not in the main changelog, as I erroneously pointed out in the post Eiii is referring to) it's not like the change was completely hidden... and we are all aware now that is occured :P
how many of you actually go looking through the "change log"? and even if you did go looking through it, how many would have actually noticed the change? if it wasn't for Xtremebain finding it, this topic wouldn't even be here.
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How about asking him why he did it before jumping on his back ???
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So from what I've gathered, you newbies still have no clue. Who cares if he's documented it or not, he's made ANOTHER change without anyones consent, just goes ahead and does it. I'm wonder why. It is a noticeable change to people who've played this game long enough.
The impact grenades were like Build 14 dude..
Think I remember er33t whining about those because they couldn't handle the new gameplay the impact nades brought.
You do know the reason why impacts were put in?
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that. When Jitspoe didn't tell anyone and just made it the server default... kind of like he's doing again now? That was fixed fast though, when people said it's a stupid change that he didn't tell anyone about and then turned off on all the servers.
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I agree with you guys about it being wrong that jitspoe just tweaks the gameplay without anyones consent, but I guess that Jitspoe should be able to do whatever he wants with the game even if he doesnt have anyones consent.
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BoB: how could you forget tripping? That was another top-notch idea implemented by jitspoe.
Except it wasn't.
So, you complain when I make the ball speed too fast, I tweak it down a bit, and you complain some more. Great. I'm glad I have such a supportive community.
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Well jitspoe, maybe if you didn't play favorites, towards people that don't even play for the most part, just because they "agree" with your views, and consulted the community before making many of the changes you have made, more people would have respect for you.
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if people complained about it the first time it was changed, why would you do it again? you just stepped into this on your own. you should have let us know you were planning on making this change. i know it's your game your rules, but if you have no community to play it, what have you accomplished? next time atleast let us know what is going on in your head before you change something.
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Those changes are probably for the best, but what's the reasoning behind it? You've already backed the competitive community into a corner with the whole Feature Vote thread which is heavily dominated by non-competitive players. Now you've made a change that would really only effect the competitive players without it having any presence on the feature vote list, any post about it on your .plan thread or any other thread on the forum. You can cover yourself and say that it's only a default value on a setting, but we've already got sk89q who noticed that the setting isn't as easy to change as admins would like. There once was a time when ball_speed was included in the default server.cfg but it doesn't look like it is anymore, who knows what ball_speed we're playing at these days...
In every other game I play these gameplay changes are tested by a panel of testers or a pre-release test build is available to test it out. A heads up saying that the ball speed was changing and that the new changes were on the EV1 servers would've been enough so that a few of us could go check it out and see what we thought.
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So, you complain when I make the ball speed too fast, I tweak it down a bit, and you complain some more. Great. I'm glad I have such a supportive community.
It is much less about the change, and much more about the way it was implemented.
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Those changes are probably for the best, but what's the reasoning behind it? You've already backed the competitive community into a corner [...]
what competitive community? there are no competitions anymore, just a bunch of "clans" that tweak their "records" by matching some newbs in 2v2. I do agree with your complaint, but not the reasoning. There is no true competitive community right now.
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the competitive community IS the clan/matching community. whether you match/scrim someone on your level or not, you are still playing for the sake of your record, regardless if it is real or not.
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You've already backed the competitive community into a corner with the whole Feature Vote thread which is heavily dominated by non-competitive players.
umm ... "backed into a corner"? how?
besides, it's not jitspoe's fault if the feature vote is "heavily dominated by non-competitive players", now is it? who's to say the "competitive players" can't get in there and be a force of their own?
whether they do or not is their own choice.
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I understand that it wasn't implemented without asking or informing of the change before-hand, however most all games make subtle changes without telling their communities until after... I remember them always doing it in different Battlefield 2 maps and options...
Don't go tearing away at Jitspoe just because he thought the community would like it because they didnt like a previous change of it... If anything lets just call it a mistake and hope he informs us next time... Anyways any minor changes he makes to the game like that aren't going to kill you, it just means having to improve your game more, which is always a good thing...
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@boon: You are only thinking of that because you aren't that active. There have been several tourneys last year (unlike several years ago) which does mean that there is a competitive community.
@jits: Could you give us some further info about the topic?
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I do believe most people who posted have been through the change of b19 to b20, which is the subject of this thread right?
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Reasoning aside, why should I be a slave to what other people's desire? Part of making your own game is being able to do what you want with it, right? Should I not have the freedom to make changes I think will make the game more enjoyable?
Now that that's out of the way:
Originally in Quake and Quake2, there was a maximum entity velocity that prohibited us from having normal velocities for paintballs. In fact, the original paintballs were so slow that gravity had to be reduced for just the paintballs so they would travel any kind of distance. Even with that, you still often had to run around with your crosshair pointed at the sky in order to be able to hit anybody. Eventually, we discovered a way around the maximum velocity setting, and set the ball speed to what was calculated to be 300 feet per second (what we were informed was the typical velocity for a paintball gun).
I'm sure some of you have noticed, though, that the balls are a bit too fast. You can pick people off clear across rather sizeable maps, shoot people that are on 20-story high structures, pin down players at distant chokepoints, etc. Now that I'm getting more into real paintball, I see that real paintballs have nowhere near the range they do in the game. I thought it was because of the air friction at first, but after revisiting the code, I noticed that the steel barrel upgrade resulted in velocities exceeding 400 fps, which is quite a bit higher than the absolute maximum legal limit for paintball velocities (300 fps), and higher yet than what most fields allow (~280fps).
I realize this isn't a simulation, but based on some of the complaints about the fast ball speed and some of my own experiences in the game, I felt it would be better to tone it down some. I tweaked it just a little so it wouldn't be a drastic change that would require a lot of adjustment, and I'll probably continue to tweak it in small increments over a period of time.
Between leaving my old job, packing my stuff up and making plans to move to California, finding out I wasn't going to be moving to California after all, calling everything off, Christmas, just wanting get Build 20 released, and the server crashing exploit fiasco, I'm sorry I didn't give this the attention it deserved, because it obviously should have been one of my top priorities. Heaven forbid I touch a line of code or adjust a variable without the almighty community's approval, especially with the salary they're paying me.
Why do I waste my time explaining myself time and time again? Why do I continue to let certain individuals post on the forums when they rarely do anything but antagonize me?
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I noticed that the steel barrel upgrade resulted in velocities exceeding 400 fps, which is quite a bit higher than the absolute maximum legal limit for paintball velocities (300 fps), and higher yet than what most fields allow (~280fps).
Now that you're more into real paintball do you see how an upgrade barrel should have no impact on ball speed at all?
Nothing should effect ball speed. Ball speed is dialed in at the chrono before anyone goes out onto the field. $11 rig vs $3000 rig, they both better fire below the posted field FPS limit (285 usually from what i've seen).
Upgrade barrel & guns should only be about accuracy and consistency. There should really be an occasional "whiff" that happens emulating a ball break in the barrel and that takes three to five shots to fully recover from accuracy wise.
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Its not a sim :(
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^^ but different barrels do effect ball speed, sure in real life no ones going to switch barrels, and if they did it definitely wouldn't be ~100fps LOL... but whenever I switched to a new barrel of mine I'd had to re-chrono to lower my air...
but I also understand you s8nson, if it were to be technical, rules are that all speeds are chrono'd to be exactly the same and can't be turned up with anything, and the only way to do it in game is to make variables like barrels not effects speeds...
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I thought ingame that barrels just affected accuracy and not speed.
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^^ but different barrels do effect ball speed, sure in real life no ones going to switch barrels, and if they did it definitely wouldn't be ~100fps LOL... but whenever I switched to a new barrel of mine I'd had to re-chrono to lower my air...
but I also understand you s8nson, if it were to be technical, rules are that all speeds are chrono'd to be exactly the same and can't be turned up with anything, and the only way to do it in game is to make variables like barrels not effects speeds...
Yes...by investing in a sweet barrel you do two things; 1) You save air because your ball traverses the barrel with less friction. Being that you have to chrono down that increase in velocity the end result is a savings in air. 2) You gain accuracy.
I know it's not a SIM, but for something like shooting you have to have a mark to go off of.
There is no reason, being that it IS a paintball game, after all, that you shouldn't try to closely model shooting more closely to real life.
I guess this actually becomes a feature vote kind of thing, which I don't care to be involved in.
But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.
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But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.
Exactly - thank you.
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But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.
I agree that only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by barrel upgrades. Personally though, I like the added dynamic of different guns firing with different distances and arcs; realism be darned. If ball velocity were to be wholly gun-dependent (i.e., take out the speed multiplier of barrels), I think it would still preserve much of the style of gameplay that many of us enjoy. Alterations to ball velocities for all of the weapons is fine if that's what jitspoe wants to do, but I'd prefer if they're changed by a percentage across the board (which I guess is essentially what he did here by altering only the multiplier effect of the barrels and default ball speed -- i'm assuming the arc/distance for each gun is altered by a gun-specific multiplier?).
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I would imagine the arc of the ball works off of some sort of projectile motion formula in which case velocity would effect arc.
An idea is:
1) 285 constant FPS no matter what setup is used.
2) Random ball breakage that begins with an initial ball whiff (the break), and requires a few shots through the gun to clear the paint coating in the barrel and gun caused by the breakage (the clearing shots would fire at an initial lower velocity gradually raising back up to 285 FPS as the breakage clears). Better equipment lessons the chance of breakage occurrence AND lessens the number of "clearing" shots required to clear the breakage back to normal firing.
3) A deviation from center and random direction variable. Center being the natural arc a perfect 285 FPS shot would take under perfect, in a vacuum, conditions.
4) A Item_co2_usage variable and multiplier that causes lesser gear to utilize co2 less efficiently.
WAIT...then then then....
We could allow a player to set a boost on their gun before a round that would allow the gun to fire at, say, 320 FPS. Of course this would ramp up the probability of a breakage also.
STAY WITH ME NOW...
THEN you can allow player to "Challenge" another players air and have them ejected from the the next couple rounds if it's above 285. BUT if it's legal then the accuser gets ejected for a couple rounds.
ok never mind about that...but the other stuff above is cool!
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I don't like the idea of chops and barrel breaks - those are annoying in real life and would be annoying in the game, too. Imagine losing a match because the ball broke in your barrel when you had the perfect shot and should have easily won the round.
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3. FPS Jumping was taken out for some reason and I'm pretty sure there's some other jumping issues that were changed that jitspoe isn't mentioning. (Not sure of FPS jumping was talked about or not, I just remember being able to do it then not being able to do it instantly.)
FPS jumping stopped after build 9. According to jitspoe, the higher fps actually made you not jump as high or some excrement like that.
qu:90; <PBCup^Pierce> i hope pbcup is still alive in 40 years <PBCup^Pierce> dp would be on like alpha300 <PBCup^Pierce> with banana hover crafts
DirtyTaco actually said that on April 5th 2006, way before he had a problem with you jitspoe if I recall correctly. For you to ban him for an idea he had a long time ago is absurd.
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I don't like the idea of chops and barrel breaks - those are annoying in real life and would be annoying in the game, too. Imagine losing a match because the ball broke in your barrel when you had the perfect shot and should have easily won the round.
wouldn't that be more like real life? IMO i think that would make the game more interesting and unpredictable.
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This isn't a sim, spare a thought to those of use who have no interest in real paintball...
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jits coded the game. hes spent MANY hours slaving over code for you all, and when he does the slightest little thing. you all freak out. the amount of involvement you have to begin with is 98% more then any other game out there. so stop whining and accept the fact that you're not the person coding the game. if you have such a huge problem, go code your own paintball game and see how well you do. Obviously all the whiners know whats best and can make a better game. So go ahead. Jit's has no obligation to tell you anything. I can see the process ceasing soon enough because of all this. I'm surprised jits hasn't just said here.. final version. I'm done updating, this is it. He probably could have done that builds and builds ago, moved onto something else. A better engine, or whatever. But he didn't. So respect his decisions because you're all lucky you have as much say as you do in the first place. And if you READ the change log before you ran the game like you're supposed to. Then you would know about it. That's what it's for. If you don't like what he did. Be like anyone else in any other game and run build19 or 18 or whatever on your server. Enough said. Good night.
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This isn't a sim, spare a thought to those of use who have no interest in real paintball...
ok so why drop the FPS of the guns? why not just leave it where it was? why even compare the FPS to real life paintball?
all i said was it would be more interesting and unpredictable. why would it matter if the player has or has never played paintball in real life? or interest.
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jits coded the game. hes spent MANY hours slaving over code for you all, and when he does the slightest little thing. you all freak out. the amount of involvement you have to begin with is 98% more then any other game out there. so stop whining and accept the fact that you're not the person coding the game. if you have such a huge problem, go code your own paintball game and see how well you do. Obviously all the whiners know whats best and can make a better game. So go ahead. Jit's has no obligation to tell you anything. I can see the process ceasing soon enough because of all this. I'm surprised jits hasn't just said here.. final version. I'm done updating, this is it. He probably could have done that builds and builds ago, moved onto something else. A better engine, or whatever. But he didn't. So respect his decisions because you're all lucky you have as much say as you do in the first place. And if you READ the change log before you ran the game like you're supposed to. Then you would know about it. That's what it's for. If you don't like what he did. Be like anyone else in any other game and run build19 or 18 or whatever on your server. Enough said. Good night.
i understand that it's his game, in fact i am sure we all get the picture. but what good is a community if they are unhappy with changes made to the game they have come to love, with out knowledge of it? you can't have a game without a community to play it. maybe the message was relayed poorly, but i think all this was about is for jitspoe to let us(the community) know of changes he has made. a simple thread saying i changed this, this, and this, would have done just fine. but hey, it's his game his rules.
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There is a way to communicate your frustration/disagreement/anger over the changes in the game.
Directly bashing Jits for being a tool isn't going to get you anywhere.
Being constructive on your displeasure will.