Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Bugs, Feature Requests, and Feedback => Topic started by: dagget on March 07, 2006, 05:35:27 PM
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With build 16 the change of the players got different. Personally i prefered, the old look, is there a way to get it back?
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And do a vid_restart.
By the way, what did you prefer about the old models?
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for me, they look less blocky and chunky. and their movements look wierd to me, like crouching and jumping, b14 players look neater in that sense. for me anyway.
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I also prefer the look of and feel of the old models, but that could be down to playing with them for a while now. However, if relatively new players find the old models better then maybe you should reconsider implementing the new ones in future builds. Personally I don’t know if there’s that much more you can do visually to the game without upsetting the whole balance of the thing. Currently I believe that DP is attracting new players because of the way it plays; changing the models has clearly affected this and is gaining a somewhat negative reaction from the community (At least the people ive spoken to).
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The old models look less blocky?! I don't see how you can say that when they basically have boxes for feet. The new ones have at least 5x's as many polygons.
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I really don't get people that say that the old models are better. They claim that they're harder to see, look worse (yeah, right), and most of them have no real reason. Where is that thing where you compared the old/new models side by side, jits?
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http://dpball.com/forums/index.php?topic=891.0 -- thread about the development of the new model.
There's this:
(http://digitalpaint.planetquake.gamespy.com/images/devel/dpchar_ingame2.jpg)
But that was before it was completed.
Well, here's some comparisons between the models:
New model:
- More polygons, so it's less blocky.
- New model format, which fixes wobbly vertexes and lighting problems.
- Higher resolution textures.
- Broken into pieces, so effects can be added to specific locations (like the glossy mask).
- Fits perfectly in the bounding box, so it's easier to hit.
- Easier to enhance with things like vwep, since the weapons can be attached to the hands.
- Skeletal system will allow for future things like animation blending the ability to move individual body parts (ie: looking up with just the head and arms instead of leaning the whole model back).
- More realistic propotions.
Old model:
- Low poly, so it renders faster.
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jits, should i have said more chunky instead? perhaps even ugly.
i mean the actual physical appearance of the new models. personally, i prefer the "look and feel" of the old ones.
I really don't get people that say that the old models are better. They claim that they're harder to see, look worse (yeah, right), and most of them have no real reason. Where is that thing where you compared the old/new models side by side, jits?
the real reason IS that they look worse. when these are what you are aiming at, teh look of them is a very important aspect
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Chunky as in fat? The old models were fatter... What part of the new models do you find ugly?
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I think the real disadvantage of the new models is movement. I have been using them for a while now, so I am used to their looks (and I dont think the old models look better...), but the movement really is ugly. When they crouch, when they jump, when they die, thats where I liked the old models better.
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Its either that what b00n just said or the fact that they look like they are fat and have too less muscles (in nearly all sports muscles are needed). --> maybe change the look of the torso? How would a broader chest be fitting then?
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thats what i've been trying to say. they look fat, chunky
The old models were fatter...
it dosen't look like it.
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Haha, that new models a proper wide boy. I agree with b00nlander, the way they move, jump, die etc, is horrible. I understand that youre going to argue your point, but in terms of the advantages you put for the new models against the old models, none of them benefit the players, i dont really care how easy it is to add vweps or how blocky it is. Its become part of the game we know and love. If im not mistaken the new models have the same hit boxes, so theyre not easier to hit at all. I dont know what it is, i just prefer the old models because of the way it makes the game play, the new ones seem to take some of the fun out of it for me.
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They're easier to hit because you know what to shoot at. The old models were off-center, meaning you had to aim a little more to the left (or right - I can't remember), and when they were jumping, almost 50% stuck outside of the bounding box, same with crouching, so you'd shoot at somebody's head/chest and shoot right through them. I can personally play much better with the new models.
When the standalone came out, people hated what's now the old paintball player model, so I figured a lot of people would be glad to be rid of it and have something that actually fits in the bounding boxes. I can understand the animation complaints, but I feel a lot of the other stuff is just resistance to change. In any case, I encourage you all to become more involved in the development discussions here. How many of you provided feedback when the model was in development (http://dpball.com/forums/index.php?topic=891.0)?
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i don't think its so much resistance to change at all, i really think that this is all down to the fact that the player models just don't look very nice.
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Its abit like the 'new coke' disaster, they got a sample of opinions which they thought represented everyone, they thought new coke was this great idea, then when they released it the consumers were in absolute uproar because they didnt like the new look or the new taste. Coke ended up losing millions of $ yadda yadda yadda yadda...
My point is, just because somethings old doesnt mean its not good, thinking that people are just resisting chnage might give you a narrow focus on what the players want, and just because people dont show their opinion doesnt mean they dont have one.
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The difference with that is that the people who didn't like it didn't have a say in the development. Everyone here did. But no one took advantage of it, and now they're complaining that they don't like the thing they wouldn't help build...
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wouldn't help build... are not able to help building? like, how many people in the community do you expect to know about creating those movements, 3d-modeling etc? I guess there should've been some kind of introduction of the new model's features to the community, which would've provided you with feedback then. Only posting some screenshots can't make people get involved into development if they don't know anything about the processes.
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You didnt exactly advertise the fact you were changing the models outside of this forum. Its really no excuse either, you shouldnt presume people will post without being prompted in some way.
Who are you trying to please? The community or yourselves? Im still trying to work that out.
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It was posted in the news -- with screenshots, even. Lots of people provided feedback, and it was pretty much all positive. Here, I grabbed some of the comments near the end of the model development:
Wow, it's been a while since i've checked in here, but darn, that looks mighty slick sirs.... Keep it up!
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i Really like the idea..
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Excellent work!!!
I can't wait until the whole model is ready
can you name a date, when everything will be done?
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S_ eight_ n(s8n) I would normally not comment on such things as this is way out of my forte, but I bow yet again to you and your skilz.... nicely done lord of time, famine, pestilences and Death. Happy father's day. Daddy
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Lookin' killer S8N. Looks alot better than the other one posted early on in the thread.
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The helmets have a bright color, but that can be fixed and great job. Really coming together on these new specs!
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LoL, Lookins great... The rate your going in is wicked awsome fast and nice detail and cool looking characters.
Keep up the good work.
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Wow.. coming along great.. I think that change is good..
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s8nsson: sweet mask... what you have there is perfect.
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Ooh, very nice! Now you must animate.
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thanks.. You should do the dyec5... like in the first page of this thread.. I think that looks Great.
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WoW, Starting to look GREAT.
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Damm, Those skins look crazy awsome... keep those ones!
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PRETTY!
I love jits enough to call him jitsey.
(Jitsey-pie is optional.)
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im excited :-D.. i can't wait.. they look EXTREMLY great.. Jitspoe and s8n, you guys did a BADASS job.
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ya it does look really good. and i must thank all those who put work into and spent many hrs on improving the look of the game. i appreciate the fact you guys would devote your time without compensation to further improve the game that i and many others such as i enjoy as much as we
do.
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gret job! it looks good
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it looks done... NOW REALEASE TO PUBLIC !
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man this is awsome!!!!
Then it gets released and people want to go back to the old model? I don't get it.
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But people cant judge the animation and movements by screenshots. Do you ever think that people are just telling you what you want to hear?
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...which is why no one likes the model now?
I don't think we've haven't had much of a problem with everyone saying what jits wants... they just might have been a little impatient.
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im with jitspoe on this one. i think the models are better, even though when i play with them i suck (even more than usual). people are too afraid of change, its just a question of getting used to them. I have one point of contention though, they do seem a LOT smaller than the old models, and until everyone is forced to use the new ones i dont see how its fair that you have to aim at tiny, short and lardy models, and people on other builds can aim at you with a big ugly mong model. Force them to use the new models, they'll whine for a bit, and the oldskool players will have tantrums, but they will get used to it and soon enough they forget the old models even existed (just like you say with the q2 models). Most people dont even have any good reasons for disliking them, other than personal preference, which i think is just retarded seeing as there is no real logic behind it.
- Dag
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The new models look like ferrets.
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As do you, my good man.
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Playing with the old models actually gives you a disadvantage for aiming. Sure, they're bigger visually, but you don't know where to hit them. Most of the time almost half of the body is sticking outside of the bounding box, so you end up shooting through them. The new models fit inside the bounding box almost exactly, so if you aim at the model, you're aiming at the bounding box.
People begged for a fix for the "shoot through head" bug. This is it. The other option would be to change the size of the bounding box itself, which would drastically impact the game play and make some maps unplayable because you wouldn't be able to fit through certain areas. If you don't like it, provide detailed feedback on what, specifically, needs to be changed.
Here are some things I've gathered:
- Too small. Can't really change that without exceeding the bounding box.
- Too fat. I don't really see it. I guess it's the baggy, untucked shirt. The old model had huge hands, feet, head, legs, etc -- very disproportionate, and the exaggeratedly narrow waist I guess made him thin in comparison to the new model. We could make the new model thinner, but that just means less visible area.
- Crouching looks funny. To fit the bounding box, the crouching animations need to be exactly 1/2 the height of the standing animations. If you can take some reference photos and/or videos to help make more realistic crouched animations, please do.
- Looks like a hunchback. He was obviously hunched over his computer playing paintball2 too much. ;) But seriously, we'll see what we can do about that.
- Animations are stiff. Yeah... they need work.
It seems like everybody wants the global login system for build 17 (http://dpball.com/forums/index.php?topic=1776.0), so I guess model improvements will have to wait until 18 or whenever...
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Maybe the modells just look smaller when they crouch because they're too "dark" then? Perhaps a solution: make them "lighter"? And about the not masculin body...Maybe a broader torso would fix this problem? (just to know for you: Havent played pb2 now since 1 week but i try to remember some things that i had noticed earlier)
Keep in mind jits: Small improvements could change also a lot ;)
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I dont think the models should be forced upon people. If the old models give you no advantage, or even a disadvantage, then whats the problem in letting people play on them? Its their loss surely? I dont think people are afraid of change, just think about guntemp Dag ;) What people may be afraid of is the threat to power and influence - I was going to expand on this but im to lazy.
Its all about personal preference, all im saying is i dont like the new models, thats my opinion. Leave the option in to use the old models and im happy.
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That's what the r_oldmodels cvar is for. Sheesh.
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I was about to ask that after reading what crash did. Can you use the r_oldmodels 1 . Is it consider cheating to use this. becuase I have Just to smooth out my game play. Which it did. Just curious.
BTW off topic. everything regarding forum works using netscape 7.2
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You actually use the spell checker? I could hug you.
Using r_oldmodels is fine (why would I have a cheat built in?). The primary reason for including it was because the new models haven't been optimized much and there's no LOD, so they can result in low framerates. It sounds like you're using it for this very reason.
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reed, you still use build 10 ffs, and for no good reason barre 'doo hoo hoo i think the round is over because a message is in the middle of the screen when i shoot someone doo hoo hoo'. you say they dont give any advantage but jitspoe has repeatedly extoled the virtues of the new models. other than optimization issues and the difficulty difference in seeing the new models over old, there really is no other logical reason to whine about them. also, who the intercourse wouldnt want to play with them because their guy looks fat. how lame is that?
oh and people arent afraid of change? care to search for 'grenades' on the forum, reed? guntemp is retarded, making use of the cocker or mag pointless against more than 2 people, but thats a different matter. the way i see it there are 2 ways you should probably go: leave the new ones in build 16/17, so all new players have the new models and learn the game with them, or come 17/18 force everyone to use the new models, and give them a similar 'dumbed down' (but still the same size, etc..) model for debugging (what im assuming r_oldmodels is really for).
- Dr Dagless
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Leave the old models in, there is no reason not to. I use build 10 because of the annoying elim messages, which i think is a fair reason, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread. If you like build 16 then use it, the only reason youre complaining is that you want to try and give the older players a disadvantage by forcing them to play with a new model. The point of this thread was to criticise the look of the models, not to force people to play the new build.
Everyone is afraid of change in some form or another, but if there are more people resisting the new models than accepting them, then theres f*ck all that you can do. Everyone has given a good reason why they dont like the new models, even you! Dagless - Empathy : 1 (He'll get this)
Just leave the old models in, it isnt hurting anybody, and it gives people an option of what to play with.
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look jits, i want to prove that the new models are way too dark while crouching. ESPECIALLY look at the shoulders/torso and the mask of the model in the newer build in my pic. Theyre the fact that the new models are too dark for me.
Maybe when you look at these pics you could think the "darkness" is not a problem but IMO it is because: when you come around a corner, you can only get the position of your opponent (or if there even is an opponent) with a short (but serious) delay of time due his "darkness".
The older models are better viewable because theyre 1) bigger (the size of the new models shouldnt be changed) and 2) because of The brightened (and big) head and the little brighter shoulders.
PS: the pic of the old model has been made from a little larger distance than the "average fight distance" of the other pic, so you cant compare it 1:1.
PPS: Maybe this and some better animations or a more masculin torso ;) would get more people to like the new models. This also might make the new model-users like them more. :)
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To be honest, on this pictures it seems like the new ones are brighter than the old ones =/
And yea for the size, they may be a bit smaller, but thats jsut so it perfectly binds into the hitbox.
As you might rememeber when you crouched with the old models you could shoot through their heads and nothing happened.So why do you need bigger modles when its the same hitbox to hit ?
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Looking at those pics i still maintain that the old models look better. Its down to the size and stance of the new models. I think that the hit boxes should be sacrificed, just have the head outside the hit box when you crouch, like Jits said, if he makes the hit boxes bigger then it will dramatically change the game play and places you can get to on certain maps.
As for the stance i think that when youre crouching one knee should definitely be on the floor, lets face it who can get their knees up to their chest without having their arse on the floor.
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I empathise with people who like the old models, but im sorry, in my book the line is drawn when its only peoples illogical and idiosyncratic opinions being pitted against progress. I am absolutely shocking with the new models, i cant hit anything at all. but that doesnt mean i dont think they are a good idea, i will just have to get used to them - which im prepared to do. at least Playah posts evidence and comparisons to support his claims! there IS a reason not to include the old models - the exact same reason we're having this discussion. i said jit should put in debugging models for people who are having trouble, such as low-poly versions of the NEW model, because even with debug ones the playing field would still be level. leaving the old models in for debug makes it unfair, as players who use these have better visibility than players using new models.
you just want to keep the old ones because you cant be bothered to get used to the new ones, basically
- Dr Rich Douglas M.D
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Jits has already said you get a disadvantage from playing on the old models as the hit boxes are all messed up, so if you hit them youre balls stand more chance of going through them. If you hit the new models they WILL die.
If we both have the option to play on the old models then there is a level playing field, but if people prefer the new models, and play better with them (Jits) then thats fine, keeping both models in will please everyone surely?
Im not saying STOP the development of the new models, im just saying dont scrap the old one until everybody is pleased with the new ones.
As for Mr Dag, he only wants to force me to play on the new ones because he knows i dislike them, and he feels he will have a better chance of killing me ;) (And he's in MY clan!)
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well, my preference has nothing to do with the sizes, hit boxes, or whether they are easier to hit or not.
my preference is SOLELY down to the fact the new ones are ugly, simple as that. They are ugly, and make my game playing experience less fun when i use them, thats the only reason i prefer to use B14 models.
so as long as the option to use B14 models is available for me, i have no problem with the new models, or anyone using them. My preferences may change if and when a new model is implemented, but who knows.
and Jits, im not having a go at you or your models, they fit within the hitboxes and sound like you did alot of other good stuff to them, and i'm thankful for that.
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I didn't actually make those models. I helped, but Rob (S8N's coworker) did most of the modelling work.
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I like the models, they just lag me out. Change is good, as long as it is lag free. :)
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reed, i couldnt hit you (or anyone else) even in the models were changed to a 5 metre-square target that says 'Dagless Is merry' on them. Having old and new models together isnt fair because players with old models can see the other players easier. if you say you agree with wanting a level playing field, surely seeing as the new ones are technically better THEY are a better choice for everyone to use.
and you just want to become the new Loial and up your post count even more by not even talking about this on msn :rolleyes:
- Dagless
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Hah. Loial, you have become the new eiii.
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Meh it could be worse.
dag = blah blah. :-*
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What don't you like about the character?
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He is very handsom, up close.
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Yeah, the charecters have to be ugly up close.