Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: jitspoe on September 02, 2003, 06:37:00 PM
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For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about: the ability to tell your teammates things after you've been eliminated.
Kinda like a laggy wall-hack, isn't it? :) "He's crouched behind the crates!"
In ways it's good: includes players in the teamwork even though they've been eliminated.
But at the same time it's bad: Ruins any strategic gameplay, like ambushes, and turns pb2 into more of a mindless reflex/aiming game.
Thoughts?
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I think you should take it out... I found that it really doesnt do any good for me, I dont even read it when im playing in matches.
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Ive always disliked this.. personaly.. I remeber people bringing this up ages ago.. no one really agreed with me.. Even you Jit! =] I consider it cheating.. but you do allow it, so I guess its not, technicaly.
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I'm not a big fan of it either, just make sure you keep \me as well as public chat from eliminated players from being heard by alive players. It would also be cool to make a cvar for the break time in between rounds.
btw, where are the transparent pngs on the forum, why can I only see half of the anime pball dude in mozilla?
edit - forwardslahses are evil
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I've been too lazy to put together browser checks and transparent pngs for the forum. Too bad you can't just specify RGBA colors for table backgrounds...
I was thinking about the recon thing... it'll be even more of an issue with radio commands and location files. While I can disable these for eliminated players, it won't stop people from reconning from the same room or from roger wilco, etc., giving them a very unfair advantage. I suppose the only real way to keep it fair would be to have a locked chasecam and black out the observer view during play. (Locked chasecam is already a server-side cvar: chasecamonly).
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This isnt neccisarily true, you can always re-intitute the jail system, complete removing people from the game, but keeping them involved without 'blacking' out their screen.
just my opinion.
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i liked the jail better then anything else caues when your dead you still has somthing to do other then fly around the map. only prob with that is from what i remember you had to fire before you went there so peeps will just not fire and tell team mates where the enemy is.
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"I suppose the only real way to keep it fair would be to have a locked chasecam and black out the observer view during play." - I would take a big dump on the game if you did that. The only fun I have is jumping around.. zooming around the map and stuff like that. If you were to make the jail, permanant, heres a tip. MAKE THEM MORE FUN =] It would need to be litterd with jumps.. of all kinds.. good places to get some speed.. like ice areas with a hill ! Oh yeah mmmmm - maybe give us 100% accuracy with a pgp when in jail - Theres some ideas for you.. And scince some mappers dont want to make jails.. you could make a few mandatory jails.. not sure thats possible though
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I think it automatically moves you a couple seconds after being killed. Unfortunately most maps don't have jails. Unfortunately most maps are the size of jails, heh.
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i agree with what was first sait, and what was just said
to fix what you just said, jit, TAKE OUT ALL THE SMALL MAPS!!!
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Dead people can only see their teammates
or
are stuck in camera on their teammates only.
or
dissable it all together
I vote for 1 or 2. Since those would also stop 'roger wilco' type cheating.
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i think its sort of cheating like some people. but at the same time, i say bring it on >:( if the other team's doing it and you still own 'em, it's twice as nice ;D
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i agree with what was first sait, and what was just said
to fix what you just said, jit, TAKE OUT ALL THE SMALL MAPS!!!
Why would you take out small maps? Ever played 2vs2 or even 1vs1 ?
Last time I checked (been a while though) there were plenty of big and mid sized maps (+5vs5).
Since the rather unstable connections between US and Europe / Scandinavia (DDoS, general lag etc.)
There's usually no point to play on the few DP servers that exist. Often you gather a few friends and play DP locally.
Running around for 5 mins before you encounter the enemy or the flag just ruins the gameplay.
There's a couple of great small maps;
Arctic, arenaball, hsball, blazin, berlin ...
About the Dead-Man Recon thingy:
First of all, make it a server side option.
If a feature (let us call it that) has been around since
the begining, dont just remove it. Let the server admin decide if he wants it enabled or disabled.
Second, I wote for Dead people can only see their teammates
Just my 2 cents ..
\plaz
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I vote for KEEP IT THE WAY it is. Remember my main suggestion when you took up the project- keep the overall gameplay the same.
Here's my take. You say that dead recon eliminates strategy for the game- THE GAME HAS NO STRATEGY TO BEGIN WITH. Jumping around at 600mph and holding down the mouse button is what eliminated strategy, not dead recon.
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Post removed
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It'd be interesting to play a match in matchmode some time -- ffire on, locked chasecam, no respawning, no dead-man recon, etc. Someone should start a league that requires matchmode defaults. :)
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Maybe if the locked chasecam actually worked... I tried putting ffire on on all 3 match servers but players are smarter than me and have learned that they can disable it with their logins, darn them. No respawn would be an interesting touch as well.
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fix it!
the "matchcomde" sounds interesting...but i don't want it on all the servers
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Locked chasecam doesn't work? I tried it on the bots and it seems to work fine...
You could always change the ffire setting to a higher login level...
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how about we take the jail and make it bigger wit a bunch of jumps. there was a mod for quake2 a while ago where all you did was jump around and try insane jumps that where really hard you can make it so when you die you go to one of those maps for the set time or till you complete the jump map. so guys that can jump really good can get back in the game in like 30 secs.
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The jail depends on the map maker. One of the new maps I'm working on actually has a way to escape the jail if you can do the jumps. :)
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i vote for 1
and, to fix your problem plaz, someone could write some sorda script so the more people there are, the bigger the map. (arenaball 5v5????)
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Escape the jail...now thats what im talking about :D
and about dead-man recon. I get to into the game and don't even read it half the time, it just distracts me. And I don't know if the match servers still have that spam excrement, but when you have complete idiots in obs spamming the merryest excrement. Same with your team mate doing idiotic spamming recon. All it does is distract people from the game and they get owned. So i personally wouldn't mind them taking dead-man recon out of the game all together.
Oh, and I like the censor thing, quite interesting :p
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Jailbreak.. ahh those were the days.
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how about making it so you just cant chat when your dead? i mean your only dead for 1 min so its not like that means you can never chat unless you suck.
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Good, we wont have to hear Excalibur speak on the servers any more!!!
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I think the escaping the jail idea is somewhat a cool idea, because if you have to try to escape a jail that would probably take the amount of time till you respawn anyways. Just can't make it linked to the level or people will camp the exit, unless u put it to an unreachable height. Yeah, is like jailbreak, but that mod was hella fun anyways :D
Also the no-talk during death is a good idea, make a spectator talk mode where only the dead people can see what the dead people are typing and the alive people are typing. But the alive people can only see what the alive people are typing.
2 posts, so you might not take me seriously, but those are my opinions :D
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well jailbreak was a mod done by team reaction the ones that also did gloom and qpong you should look them up they are a great mod making team the oldest out there.
ok on another note the jailbreak idea i love it. it should be when you get good at a set jail map you can get out in like 25 secs or so. that way if you suck you can learn the jail and learn to get out faster and try and get better by playing.
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You can escape from the jail in junkyard.bsp by cyko... if you're an alright jumper =]
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Yeah, but it wont be so easy when there are people shooting at you in the jail haha
If your right by the exit and get hit your not gonna have time to exit it again. So should it be team only escaping like jailbreak where u have to work as a team to exit? Or be a co-team battle jail? Or how about the mapper be able to choose one of those options?
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how about you mix jail break with paintball just ask team reaction if they will let you use the jail break code and make like a jail break but instead of rail guns and shot guns you get paintball guns.
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You can already do jail break in pb2. There just aren't any maps for it.
Also the no-talk during death is a good idea, make a spectator talk mode where only the dead people can see what the dead people are typing and the alive people are typing. But the alive people can only see what the alive people are typing.
There's also a server-side option for that. It doesn't stop people from using roger wilco or some other external program to communicate though.
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what's the server option?
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"deadtalk"
It's actually turned off by default (can't see what dead people type).
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if you black out my screen ill punch you in the nuts.
cable makes this came too easy, i propose we all go back to
dail up.
-Brew
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::) ::) ::)
No, dialup's still too fast...
21k!!!
:P
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ok....jail break sounds ok. I dont like the idea of melding two different mods together, no matter how cool Jailbreak is (I wish people still played that mod).
The point of the game is paintball. Don't make it so that it becomes something it's not.
I started thinking about it. The thing that is the most annoying about the 'no dead speak' being enabled is that people try to talk to you without realizing that you can't hear them, or that you can't reply until the end of the round (depending on who is the one that is dead).
Now, Jit made a 'team say' change color depending on which team you are on. This seems to help identify who the person is speaking to(whether it is to their team or the world). This is good for teams to be able to communicate and plan an attack on the enemy.(live recon)
Why not do the same with the dead? sure, they cant speak with the rest of the world, or much less their own team, but at least they will know who they are speaking too and whether 'no dead speak' is enabled or not.
And dont make it a forced thing. Let the admins decide if it should be enabled or not.
Make it so that if 'no dead speak' is enabled, then the dead will talk in a different color the usual.
-Derrek
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actually, admins CAN decide to switch it on or off with
"st deadtalk 1" and "set deadtalk 0"
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That's what the [ELIM] before your name is supposed to designate, basically like the *Dead* in CS (or whatever it is they use). You should be able to "cvar_get deadtalk" to see what it's set to.
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Jitpoe I like derreks Idea. Again I hate to use Americas as another annoying point of reference but there communications is awsome. Im not going to go into detail about how much better it is than what we have here but...
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Then make a new thread about it and go on about it there.
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An obvious disadvantage of not having deadtalk on is that when someone talks to you after they get shot you can't see what they say, this can also be an advantage since most of the whinning takes place by the "dead". Most of the time what people say isn't worth reading... but it's confusing when you come into the conversation midway... not a big deal usually. Then there's the advantage the rodger wilco etc users would have, as previously mentioned. If duplicating or creating a similiar built-in voice system is out of the question maybe making it easier to use the existing programs somehow might be a good thing. A locked team chasecam would be fine with most people I'm sure.
Personnally I don't care if "dead" people can talk to their alive teammates. I tend to recon more than most only in hopes others will do it for me.
The jails can be made so only one team spawns in them, for example the map routes (a great map btw) has 2 jails, one for each team, and people in jail can shoot out into the live area. If you want to turn pball jails into more of a jump game then make 2 jails. (or 4 or whatever)
Basically, I like deadtalk on, deadteamtalk can go either way. If people use deadtalk for recon then all will see it and hopefully play accordingly.
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Deadtalk should only apply to team chat. If that's not the way it's working, I need to fix it.
Also, there is an option for locked chasecam. I think that should be on for matches, but it doesn't really matter in public play.
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MMMMM I must interject. :)
meh alot to seh......
l8ter....when I have time.
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MMMMM I must interject. :)
meh alot to seh......
l8ter....when I have time.
BAHAHahahahaha.....
A warning from Loial of a pending reply... Like he really needed to warn us that *that* was going to happen...hehehe ;)
-Derrek
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no i posted my thoughts about player coms some where else.
Der ;)
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You should also remove the option to "fly around" and observe your enemies after you died--- think about tools like teamspeak if ppl can´t write ingame they can talk online!
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I think there should be an option for chasecam only on their team only.
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There is. Chasecamonly is the cvar, I think. I should set up a match server with these settings. "The way it should be." :)
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I think you should keep it in. There will always be people using Ventrilo or Teamspeak and if people in the game can't use it then the "voice recon" will be even better.
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There is. Chasecamonly is the cvar, I think. I should set up a match server with these settings. "The way it should be." :)
Agreed.
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Post removed
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Revived!
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Good.
U first.
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dont evarrrrrr take out recon -=[{LoL}]=-
Come on, dt, you can do better than that. There are enough stupid people out there as it is. We don't need people pretending, too.
Also, eiii and loial, please stop with the useless spam.
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I will. This will be one of my last ones.
(I hope)
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....enables be quiet Loial :)
BBBBuuuuutttt!!!!! its not fair. I am not newwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post removed
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For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about: the ability to tell your teammates things after you've been eliminated.
Kinda like a laggy wall-hack, isn't it? :) "He's crouched behind the crates!"
In ways it's good: includes players in the teamwork even though they've been eliminated.
But at the same time it's bad: Ruins any strategic gameplay, like ambushes, and turns pb2 into more of a mindless reflex/aiming game.
Thoughts?
SO wrong. there's no 'hes behind the crate' excrement.
DP is way too fast paced for that. The ONLY way that will happen is vs newbies. Lets face it.. if you wanna move the scoreboard, you don't camp. I can't remember the last time I recon'd "hes behind the crate" or "hes under so and so" because DP moves way too fast for the guy to still be there by the time you've received the recon and gone all the way there. (unless you're playing newbies)
recon = TEAMWORK.
if you think it helps you like a wallhack then I'm sorry to say but YOU sir are one of those 'newbies' who sit and hide, and are getting killed for not moving.
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I'm tired of seeing all these responses from players who NEVER MATCH.
What's the point of feedback from them? They have NO CLUE what goes on in a match.
Hobo -- So what you think people whine after you kill them in a PUB, and dont want to see what they say?
No one cares about pubs. You can mute people cant you? Go mute a whole pub and play happily. No need to ruin the game for the rest of us just because you're emotionally shattered by someone saying OMGZ NICE CHEATZ D0o0D.
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if you black out my screen ill punch you in the nuts.
cable makes this came too easy, i propose we all go back to
dail up.
-Brew
Yeah. It's easy because your clan refuses to match good clans, and then goes and 5v5's germans. If you don't want the game to be 'easy', come match eR33t.
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kinda racism digi. Only american clans are good?!
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kinda racism digi. Only american clans are good?!
Nah, it's not ME who thinks that. It's other clans who refuse to match us because they have 'no one on', and then go match german clans 5 vs 5. I match whoever wants to match. I dont care how good/bad they are. I play for fun. Not to add wins to my channels topic.
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What are you talking about digi?
Digi - "Hobo -- So what you think people whine after you kill them in a PUB, and dont want to see what they say?
No one cares about pubs. You can mute people cant you? Go mute a whole pub and play happily. No need to ruin the game for the rest of us just because you're emotionally shattered by someone saying OMGZ NICE CHEATZ D0o0D."
If you'd pull your head out for a breath you'd see I was telling him I think he should leave deadman recon on.... He also had deadman talk turned off... which means unless you're dead you can't see what the dead say. Although pball isn't meant as a chat program it does get used as one. When you are one of the last left you miss most of the conversation when deadtalk is off. It wasn't even about the reconning... I agree that recon should be allowed and take pride in my ability to use it.
As far as no one caring about the pubs: WTF is you're problem? Just because you don't care doesn't mean no one does. I care about the pubs. You come accross as an arrogant sob. I'm saddened that someone with as much experience and talent which you have can't see anything but one way to do things. I'm sure you don't care what I think but since you choose to reply to my post you are either wanting to argue or do care, I'd guess it's the first. You say you play for fun, so do alot of the players in the game, including myself. I'm aware that I don't match, and that I'm not in a clan. I've seen what alot of the clans are like and I'm fine without that added crap. So yes I for one care what happens on the pubs more so than in the matches. A player starts on the pubs and hopefully gets good enough to get asked into a clan... remember not everyone that plays only plays in matches.
What else? Doesn't matter...
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I can see more then one way to do things. And of course, there's always a BETTER way. RECON is the better way. Feel free to take it out of pubs, I wouldnt care.
The fact is this topic is mainly in regards to matching. I'm sure jit isnt too concerned about 2 newbies reconing eachother in a public server. It doesn't affect anyone.
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Open your mind digi... please don't try to speak as the voice of everyone, but feel free to express YOUR thoughts and wishes.
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Open your mind digi... please don't try to speak as the voice of everyone, but feel free to express YOUR thoughts and wishes.
How did I know you'd say that.....?
recon has NOTHING to do with public servers. That's all I'm saying.
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In my opinion, you're wrong. "NOTHING" is too strong, very little might be a better choice... in my opinion.
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Do only newbs play in public? It beats playing with your self.
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if you're trying to influence "teamwork and streatgey," then what is so wrong with recon?? Recon can be a great tool can help win matches. Without recon is like depending on the "individual skills" of the person. Overall recon is great and influences teams to help each other.
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From what I've seen, dead man recon tends to boil the game down to raw skill (of the living player(s)). If it's teamwork, it's passive teamwork. Eliminated players aren't actively involved in distracting the enemy, or flanking them, or any of the things I would personally consider to be teamwork. Instead they're simply providing the living player(s) with information which nullifies any potential strategy the enemy is using and results in merely skill-based confrontation.
If you have good aim and work as a team, you'll most likely win.. there's not much strategizing to do, even in big maps like c1.
Because it isn't necessary. Who needs strategy when your dead teammates can simply tell you where everyone is?
For example, I'm rushing high on castle1 (4 vs 4) and I see that DirtyTaco and Bob have just been killed almost simultaneously by the same opponent. Well, I knew DT was going backdoor -> middle, so I assume that they both lost a firefight in the middle of the map. Now, I also quickly consider the fact that there's probably two opponents in the middle instead of one, since both of them getting killed by a single guy at once seems improbable (there were probably other distractions). So, very quickly, I consider my options in what is now a 2 vs 4 round. Instantaneously I would switch into a defensive position, either chooising to backtrack towards my backdoor/door area...
It would be neat if the game were played more like this, but in reality, it doesn't matter where your teammates are when they die, because they can simply tell you where the enemy is after the fact.
I can't remember the last time I recon'd "hes behind the crate" or "hes under so and so" because DP moves way too fast for the guy to still be there by the time you've received the recon and gone all the way there.
Perhaps you personally don't, but the er33t demos I've seen are filled with things like "tower", "V", "X", etc., designating exactly which bunker the enemy is at. You know where he is. He knows where you are. The end result is a head on match of raw skill. There's little room left open for outsmarting, ambushing, sneaking around, or pretty much any other strategy. It's almost solely confrontation skills.
I'd like to thank DT for spelling out his reasoning in a logical fashon, but I do not think that playing with dead-man recon brings about the same level of teamwork and strategy that playing without it does. Hear me out. At one point, dead-man recon may have taken some skill, but these days with things like voice recon, it's trivial to tell your teammates where the enemies are.
Say you have a 5v5 match and you have an excellent game plan worked out. Your team moves into position and eliminates the first opponent.
... and now the enemy knows your strategic positioning because the eliminated player is reporting it. Strategy is almost pointless once the first guy is out. It's straightforward confrontation from there on out. You can't set up traps, ambushes, or surprise attacks (things that require active teamwork) very well because the enemy players know where you'll be. You can't sneak into the base because the dead player(s) will report your position, even if you used some active teamwork to reach a path not normally accessable, and you will have to face a head-on confrontation with the defense. Again, raw skill is involved there. The strategy is pointless.
In fact, there is not much strategy offered at all, as digi mentioned. It's mostly about how fast you can move and how well you can aim. That's how it is with dead-man recon.
Without it, though, I think a whole new realm of latent gameplay could be opened up. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be neat to give it a chance. Instead of being geared toward individual confrontational skills, it could potentially move more toward active teamwork and strategy. Real game plans, not plans that only last half a second because the enemy knows where you are.
Now say you're the team that has an eliminated player. With dead-man recon, you can all be lone gunman going after individual goals and have the eliminated player(s) tell you where the enemy is. It's not critical to work together much, because the enemy can't simply sneak around you, and if they do manage to grab the flag, you'll know exactly what path the flag carrier is taking without even having to think. You're just being told. While this is not void of teamwork or strategy, it comes close in my opinion.
Without dead-man recon? Now you're outnumbered and outgunned. It's at this point that cooperating with your remaining teammates becomes critical. You can't just merrily run off in your own way and attack the enemy, because you won't necessarily know where the enemy is. You need a game plan, and you need one that's better than your enemy's. It's no longer just a matter of running and shooting. You have to outsmart the enemy. Do something unexpected, but you also need your teammates to cover your arse. Outplay. Don't simply outrun or outaim. That's teamwork at its finest.
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Once again I'd like to point out that you don't play matches jit. Maybe recently you've played one or 2, but over the last 4 years I dont remember you being active in the community at all. You definately don't have as much experience matching as a lot of us do.
I got the privellege to try your settings once in a match.. Again I'll tell you what that match consisted of.. 0:00 - 2:00 .. eR33t grabs/kill other team. eR33t is now in the lead. 2:00 - 20:00 .. eR33t goes high with flag and isnt found ONCE by the other team for the rest of the map.
Game over.
That's skill?.. If you remove recon, the 'stategy' that you want will be grabbing and hiding. If a team is in the lead, and knows they can hide somewhere and not be found without recon.. why risk going out and losing the lead? why not just hide the whole match?
I guarantee you this will happen A LOT. It already happened for the WHOLE MATCH the FIRST time we tried it. I bet it happens atleast 80% of all matches.
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Jit.. if you think recon is wallhacking, then MOVE. DP is a fast paced game. Ever if we could type 7billion words per minute, you would still have time to move before you could be shot behind your camping spot. Simply STOP CAMPING. No clan has EVER.. EVER. EVER EVER EVER beaten a clan I have been in by camping. Camping isn't effective. So what you do is make it EASIER for the campers? Give me a break.
It's pathetic the way you think.
I'm sorry.
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As pathetic as throwing a hissy fit and quitting the server when I wanted to test out experimental settings in a scrim? I'm sorry I don't have time to match every minute of every day like some of you, but at least let me experience the problems first hand.
You've made a valid point about the flag carrier hiding, and it's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, as I've discussed in other threads, but I don't think it's fair to throw out the entire concept based on a somewhat unrelated flaw.
I don't intend to make it easier for the campers, but rather make it easier for the people who have genuine strategies and plans of action as opposed to mere individual skill.
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Nah. You're just making it easier for people to hide. It's doing nothing more. And as for that day, I wanted to MATCH. not waste my time with an 'experimental queer scrim'. If you want to play one of those matches then schedule it and I'd be glad to one day. I just didnt want to then.
Please do throw out the concept. It's horrible. I'm just waiting for the day you force these settings onto everyone like everything else you changed. Next week I'll be playing a match with gorilla launchers and floppy clown shoes.
Do you not realize that 'good' players disagree with the changes, and people who blow WANT them to change? Do you not see the connection there? They just want you to make everything easier for them. Not worth putting in the practice if the all mighty god of DP is gonna make it easier. You already changed the ball flight which made it a HELL of a lot easier. Now impact grens at 80% of the kills. Why shoot when you can toss a banana grenade and blow up the whole team? Made it much easier. Also, you dont have to worry about getting capped on now, cause guess what.. you CANT CAP. And NOW, you can't get shot when camping like a fn newbie because no one can find you. GOOD JOB. Why not force us to play on foreign servers where we ping 600? That way its more 'fair' for people who arent as good.
D out.
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... and now the enemy knows your strategic positioning because the eliminated player is reporting it. Strategy is almost pointless once the first guy is out. It's straightforward confrontation from there on out. You can't set up traps, ambushes, or surprise attacks
Ambushes? When does anyone setup an ambush in DP? The game is too fast paced to try to get someone and set up a trap or ambush.
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Nah. You're just making it easier for people to hide. It's doing nothing more. And as for that day, I wanted to MATCH. not waste my time with an experimental queer scrim. If you want to play one of those matches then schedule it and I'd be glad to one day. I just didn't want to then.
Please do throw out the concept. It's horrible. I'm just waiting for the day you force these settings onto everyone like everything else you changed. Next week I'll be playing a match with gorilla launchers and floppy clown shoes.
Do you not realize that Good players disagree with the changes, and people who blow WANT them to change? Do you not see the connection there? They just want you to make everything easier for them. Not worth putting in the practice if the all mighty god of DP is gonna make it easier. You already changed the ball flight which made it a HELL of a lot easier. Now impact grens at 80% of the kills. Why shoot when you can toss a banana grenade and blow up the whole team? Made it much easier. Also, you dont have to worry about getting capped on now, cause guess what.. you CANT CAP. And NOW, you can't get shot when camping like a fn newbie because no one can find you. GOOD JOB. Why not force us to play on foreign servers where we ping 600? That way its more 'fair' for people who arent as good.
D out.
Change and adapt or not and complain. Digimon, whom I remember. Perhaps not. Perhaps you can play more public and teach us newbies what this game is all about. You can do it!! Lead by example. I understand things that sucks and how I dont like them. :) You want good competition? Teach, dont taunt. Be nice. Show others. Or is keeping knowledge best not shared? Hmmm game ethics.
*edit I suck above all, nuthing personal to anyone.
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Change and adapt or not and complain. Digimon, whom I remember. Perhaps not. Perhaps you can play more public and teach us newbies what this game is all about. You can do it!! Lead by example. I understand things that sucks and how I dont like them. :) You want good competition? Teach, dont taunt. Be nice. Show others. Or is keeping knowledge best not shared? Hmmm game ethics.
*edit I suck above all, nuthing personal to anyone.
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What do you want me to teach you?
You pick up a gun and shoot the other team.
It's not a hard game to understand..?
You fail to realize that if you don't join a clan you really won't learn anything new. Playing vs people you're better then doesn't teach you anything. It just boosts your ego because you have a higher score then people.. If you want to learn how to play well you gotta join a clan and start matching. That's where its at. ;)
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It would be neat if the game were played more like this, but in reality, it doesn't matter where your teammates are when they die, because they can simply tell you where the enemy is after the fact.
If the game was played more like this, people wouldn't be complaining. I can't control the 99% of the community that isn't capable of playing at this level.
If you know where your teammates are when they die, why do you need them to tell you?
I don't really find it appropriate to lighten recon as a "slow wallhack."
Here's a few reasons, most of which have already been mentioned:
(1) wallhacking is a CHEAT, a third party exploit... recon is available to everyone on an equal field.
(2) Recon only reveals relative position, and requires knowledge of the map that a wallhack clearly would not. As stated, a _good_ player isn't going to have his location pinpointed because they are almost always in constant movement.
(3) Recon is much more influential on the larger, multi-path/multi-flag maps. As stated, you must know the map in order to utilize the recon. Now, in 1vs4 situations/etc against an experienced team, the single player is all but doomed without any recon. I would expect huge score changed during these situations, since a good team could almost always maximize their score by confusing the opponent. At the very least, recon gives the lone guy a small chance to minimize loss. Have you ever tried getting recon about four opponents simultaneously while running and shooting? Not quite like a wallhack, IMO.
(4) You can still use teamwork and strategy, even if your opponent "knows" where you are. IE, a popular strategy on c1 in a 3 vs. 1 situation, is that the lone defender will be at the bd/main doors, and there will be two offenive players simultaneously rush the water-> main / bd -> bd flag. The defender has to choose to deal with one or the other, and thus there will be a flag grabbed and a 1vs2 situation at the very best. Is this not a strategic manuever, regardless of the opponents knowledge of your location?
(5) Finally, something that is probably done by only a handfull of the best players, faking routes to encourage false recon. IE, I fake going from BD Flag #2 on c1 to their main, knowing the guys getting recon.. then i quickly make a 180 out of the blue and go towards the backdoor exit. You can even do circles of movement as if you can't make up your mind.. when really your only trying to confuse your opponent with a strange recon pattern....
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Here's something funny (on that fake out note, kind of).
Using voice recon in practices where some of the people are on your team, and some aren't. It's funny to hear the other team getting voice recon on you. I will often make all kinds of crazy moves just to see how the person giving recon handles it, and to try to judge the lag between when I make my moves, to when I hear the recon announced. On voice recon about three unnatural movements in a row will throw recon off for a split second. I imagine with text recon in could take two moves, and the recovery time may be significantly extended.
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Another thing I dont understand is why if your that godo of a player/ team why would you not want to handicap your selfs, in the intrest of leveling the playing fields. Really who wants to match e33rt (because they are good) or cheating clans. Expand or shrink your mind to that of a new player. More to come. GTG
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You have the mentality that the best situation is a psuedo-level playing field for all, to provide the most competition. I have the mentality towards crushing people as badly as is humanly possible. This idea caries over to pretty much any kind of competition i'm in.. I want to win.. and win by as much as I can. The playing field _is_ even to begin with. I don't want a handicap to make things even. Competition doesn't interest me when I know that I'm better.. so what's the point of giving the other guy a chance? Reminds me of when I use to play pretty high in the SuperChampionship division of Texas Tennis... I was always taught that when you play someone of lesser skill, beat them as badly as you can. Don't ever handicap yourself, go all out and devestate them. Some people have a much more competitive nature than others, and clearly this is such a case...
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LoL.
You like tennis. Kool I used to be good when I was age 10-21 in 82'-93'. I was ranked in 28 at 13 (lower "A" bracket) in San Antonio playing out of Thousand Oaks Country Club USTA. Yeah crushing your enemy is fun for how long? Dont you get bored? Not as of yet. Ok anyway good to see rich kids still play tennis. :)
Justin+Hedge
Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #81 on: Today at 07:46:50 PM » Quote
You have the mentality that the best situation is a psuedo-level playing field for all, to provide the most competition
Dude thanks. The most competition is all I want. Let the Lord of Chaos Reign. Btw dont backlash on me for likeing BAIN"S BUM BETTER.
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Another thing I dont understand is why if your that godo of a player/ team why would you not want to handicap your selfs, in the intrest of leveling the playing fields. Really who wants to match e33rt (because they are good) or cheating clans. Expand or shrink your mind to that of a new player. More to come. GTG
so you're telling us to get worse? LOL
did you even think before you wrote that? =/
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Another thing I don't understand is why if your that Good of a player/ team why would you not want to handicap your selfs, in the intrest of leveling the playing fields. Really who wants to match e33rt (because they are good) or cheating clans. Expand or shrink your mind to that of a new player. More to come. GTG
so you're telling us to get worse? LOL
did you even think before you wrote that? =/
No, not get worse, don't be obtuse. Is "get worse" good English grammer?
Really, nice ignore tactic, In none of my comments, did I suggest that you get worse. How could your team be worse by adding or removing a feature. You will adapt and win. Or not.
Let The Lord of Chaos Reign in this Battle,
Loial
*edit
No, Digi I kill before i think, sorry.
** Will try harder.
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'Get worse' is proper English grammAr, loial. And he's right. You did suggest that one team lower their skill to that of another, which is ridiculous. A team wins a match because they're better. If the two teams are EXACTLY the same, then it will be a matter of one or two points.
And you might not be the lord of chaos so much as the lord of chaotic grammar.
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Another thing I don't understand is why if your that Good of a player/ team why would you not want to handicap your selfs, in the intrest of leveling the playing fields. Really who wants to match e33rt (because they are good) or cheating clans. Expand or shrink your mind to that of a new player. More to come. GTG
so you're telling us to get worse? LOL
did you even think before you wrote that? =/
No, not get worse, don't be obtuse. Is "get worse" good English grammer?
Really, nice ignore tactic, In none of my comments, did I suggest that you get worse. How could your team be worse by adding or removing a feature. You will adapt and win. Or not.
Let The Lord of Chaos Reign in this Battle,
Loial
*edit
No, Digi I kill before i think, sorry.
** Will try harder.
HAHAHAHAHAH. Please don't EVER again speak to me about grammAr or any use of the english language. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that what you speak isn't really even classified as english. More of a mix between english and a couple foreign languages.
Also, you DID say that.
you said to 'handicap' ourselves to make it easier for other teams. So you either meant 'get worse' or you want us to blindfold ourselves when we play or something. Why dont YOU just get BETTER? Isn't that how things usually work? When someone is better then you at a sport, do you practice and get as good as them? Or do you break their legs and win because of their handicap? If that's the way you want to win, I feel bad for you. It's clearly possible to beat us, if we can play like this. You don't need any special handicaps. I was never gone easy on when I wasnt as good, and thats why I got better. No one else got any special handicaps. Going easy on you would just make you feel good, you wouldn't actually be better.
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Oh dear,
I was suggesting and not clearly enough ,that perhaps adding new features (impact nades)and getting rid of old features (ghost reconing) which not just you but alot others players and even my clan seems to be against. I see them as a leveling the playing field, so would a automatic BFG but that is another story in a different q2 mod.
Yeah the grammar commnt was my only chance to show the forum what it feels like and to perhaps to get a laugh since my articulation is almost that of a retard :) hugs and thanks for not flaming on me.
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And you might not be the lord of chaos so much as the lord of chaotic grammar.
haha
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Giving players things that take away skill do 'level the playing feild', but then again, so does allowing all players to viewgib.
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Giving players things that take away skill do 'level the playing feild', but then again, so does allowing all players to viewgib.
...or giving everyone a wallhack. :P
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How does giving or takeing a weapon/feature take away raw skill? The only thing your doing is changing battle senarios, not removing or adding raw skill.
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Be hones, it sucks when you get hit by a grenade that someone tossed not knowing if he would hit anything.
Thats not skill, that's luck.
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Yeah, but the grenade's aren't really meant to do that, and it rarely works. The person was actually probably throwing it there because he knew someone would be there, which isn't skill, but strategy. If he just randomly threw a grenade and hit you, yes, that's luck, but there's an aspect of luck in all games. That can't be removed.
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Loial21, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Thanks, Blitz thats a lot comming from you. :) That was the nicest thing you have ever said to me, ever *tears up. What is not rational about implementing new weapons and removing old features and how is doing so not fair and more fun? Something new would be nice and fun. But I guess, that if Jitspoe changed a dam thing regarding weapons and recon that the whole community would excrement on him till it was shoulder high. Like Bob says "Pathetic" . Is this game so important? no. Will change be good? yes. Now dear forum I have in the past and do now apologize, yet again for insulting your intelect with ..."blah blah blah, not fair..blah" . What I am really disappointed in is the level of maturity in regards to this. Teach dint taunt. Show me in your own words why MY LOGIC is flawed on this. I'm not perfect, if I am wrong I say sorry. I deserve better than..."your stupid loial" :)
Blitz, also thanks for the old public servers it was fun. You can call me Loial or stupid donkey, the "21" is part of the tautology bud.
Flame off, for now. :)
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Back on topic:
One thing I'm really curious about is why this behavior is highly frowned upon and considered cheating by just about every other gaming community in existance, but here it's encouraged.
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Billy Madison...niiiice!
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Back on topic:
One thing I'm really curious about is why this behavior is highly frowned upon and considered cheating by just about every other gaming community in existance, but here it's encouraged.
Here here!!