Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Mapping => Beta / In-Progress Maps => Topic started by: cusoman on December 28, 2011, 06:40:30 PM
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I decided to start mapping again. Worked on this on and off for about a week.
Zephyrus:
-CTF
-All flags worth 5 points (including mid flag)
-Has useless water in the middle to cause lags. It's pretty.
-The usual grass/rock/box/barrel combo :)
The map was designed to be playable under both the new and old physics. I clipped the entire sky and tested every jump I could to ensure that Zephyrus plays well regardless of the server running it.
I would like to finish this shortly with a full release so feedback is appreciated :)
- Cusoman
EDIT:
BETA 2 IS OUT: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9007
EDIT 2:
BETA 3 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9013
EDIT 3:
BETA 4 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9040
EDIT 4:
BETA 5 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9072
EDIT 5:
BETA 6 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=10269
Screenshots:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/og9y5c.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2u3wg15.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/168brk7.jpg)
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I love that you clipped the ceiling so that skygliding shouldn't work ;)
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Looks good. I've put it in rotation on the beta server. My biggest suggestion would be to add some small boxes to the box pile on the side of the base so if you go into the middle of the base, you can take an alternate route to the flag and not be forced to walk up the stairs.
If you take the left or middle path and go right, there's a small, long cliff/step that seems to always stop me when I hit it. I'd suggest adjusting the slopes so it's within step height (< 18 units) and won't sometimes stop people. I can record a demo if you need me to point out what I'm talking about.
Little nitpicks:
- The shingle texture looks out of place and is upside-down in some places.
- The ladders and railings seem uber-huge (ladder is over 9 feet wide).
- Barrels are too big.
- Might be cool to taper the top edges of the dam-like structure (where the colored stripes are). It would look cooler and make the jump from the box stack in the water a little easier for new players.
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Cool map, great job so far.
I really like the idea and the implementation of the dam-like structure and terrain. The size of the map is nearly perfect, should be good for public server, but also be playable with fewer players. For me one of the best maps in the last time (maybe years). *thumbs up*
There's not much to say in additional of jitspoe's feedback.
I'm not sure if 5 points for the mid flag is a good choice. Just from running over the map - without playing it with others - I'd think 3 points might be better. But I need to test if with players first.
The entities are nice, nothing to improve imo.
And two screenshots:
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2882.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2881.jpg)
Red: Nice to see that you added clip brushes here. But in this corner I'd prefer a small box or something like that, because the hole is big. Feels a bit unreal to stay in the air here.
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2884.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2883.jpg)
Red: The black face is on both sides (red and blue).
Keep up the great work and try not to finish this map too fast. Give it a chance to get tested public with both physics.
Map is online @ [OTB] Beta!
EDIT 1: Forgot this screenshot :P
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2886.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2885.jpg)
For me it looks a little bit empty here. From an other perspective it doesn't look that extreme.
EDIT 2: One more screenshot ...
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2890.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2889.jpg)
Red: I'd add clip brushes here.
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the fcks a zephyrus, like sht. are u fckin euro no with these crazy fckin czech names that no1 understands. change the name and ppl might like the map.
It's the same as like 2 other maps you made though. Everytime I don't walk u through each step of your map, they turn out the exact same. u need me. outdoor_a3 , finish it. and that other one that i dont know the name of, but me and that 4 eyes overweight guy who u clanned with made it. (that was code for l!nk if u didn't understand, ok cuso?) no1 knows my hidden mapping talent besides cuso.
i like your barrels.
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People don't dislike maps because of there names
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The center flag might hurt more than help. I forgot to mention that. Maps with 3 flags don't tend to play that well from what I've seen. Maybe you should just make it support both game modes separately? I guess it just needs some good play testing to be sure. Did I give you the login to the beta server?
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I like your map.
I am the same opinion as jitspoe . Maps with center flags aren't as popular as other maps. Only "Mid-Flag-Map" which is often played is shock.
I would remove the mid flag and make an low way instead --> - To reduce the possibility of camping
- More ways to get to the flag
Its just my opinion ;)
peace
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Wow lots of great ideas. I fixed everything mentioned except:
- Mid flag
Two of my favorite maps are mirror2 and mystique. Neither of those mid flags are set up like Zephyrus, but they still create three player roles that I really like. The first being the rusher, who rushes to the enemy base for their flag, but serves as a counter to the other team trying to capture the mid flag should they secure it. The second role is the mid player, who has to make sure either your team has the mid flag, or the other team doesn't. He becomes the rusher if your rusher dies and the mid flag is already secured. The third role is slow rusher or mid player not directly concerned with the flag. This player, on a classic CTF setup, would be the camper. The mid flag makes camping in base ineffective, and therefore you have to be close enough to it to make sure that the other team doesn't grab it, while still watching your base. This places the player at the front of their base, rather than inside, which is better than a camper :)
- Oversized STuffZ
I think it looks nicer like this than a more realistic scale. It doesn't impact game-play, and I do all my maps this way. Style points! :)
Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming!
Beta 2 attached.
- Cusoman
EDIT:
BTW, no need to give me the login since i can't play for another year :P I would appreciate some demos from matches or pubs though, so that I can get an accurate view of how the map really plays :)
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Your barrels just look weird, in my opinion. I've attached an image for reference. When I see those barrels in maps, they always come across to me as the mapper being to lazy to figure out proper proportions. Plus the barrel top textures don't line up properly. Style points -1.
A couple other suggestions:
- Consider making the jump to the left (high path) base entrance a little easier. I doubt most players can get that.
- Minor, but on that same path when exiting the base, there's a hole between the boxes (above the ramp) where, if you land in it, you can't jump to the next box. You have to back up, then jump. Kind of annoying if you happen to hit it. Maybe shift the boxes a bit or add something there.
With the white flag, my biggest concern is that fast players can just rush in circles capping the white flag before the other team even gets there. Probably not an issue in matches, but it would be nice to see this map get some pub play. One idea might be to replace the current white flag stand with a window and put the flag down in the water to slow it down a bit. (The window being there so people playing the map for the first time realize there's a flag there).
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The only part that bugs me is that when you go into the water in the middle of the map you are basically in a Nazi killing pit. There is no way to get out without getting completely murked and murdered.
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- Mid flag
Two of my favorite maps are mirror2 and mystique. Neither of those mid flags are set up like Zephyrus, but they still create three player roles that I really like. The first being the rusher, who rushes to the enemy base for their flag, but serves as a counter to the other team trying to capture the mid flag should they secure it. The second role is the mid player, who has to make sure either your team has the mid flag, or the other team doesn't. He becomes the rusher if your rusher dies and the mid flag is already secured. The third role is slow rusher or mid player not directly concerned with the flag. This player, on a classic CTF setup, would be the camper. The mid flag makes camping in base ineffective, and therefore you have to be close enough to it to make sure that the other team doesn't grab it, while still watching your base. This places the player at the front of their base, rather than inside, which is better than a camper :)
Nice reasoning here, BUT,
What if it was 1v1? The 2 players would be just capping the mid flag. So it would be like --> get to the lead by at least one mid flag cap, then make it 1v1 and go just cap it --> End.
OR,
What if it was 1v2? The player who is alone would get capped 2 mid flags if he didnt somehow overspeed the other 2 players.
OR,
even worse if the player who is alone would be (as you say) the camping one, they could jsut grab the mid flag and the player with flag could go near their cap and just wait for the player who is alone to go rush him so they can cap that flag and go cap again on him while the player who is alone would be in enemy base without any flag and surrended by 2 enemies. Surely this option would be available only if the opposite team (who is with 2 players alive) would be leading.
Srsly hope you can understand it, I just wanted to point out that the mid flag isnt that good as you may think. The reason why a mid flag is viable for shock is that the shock is small you can shoot from one "base" to another so you can hit capper even from your base (low possibility but still it makes the mid flag viable)
Edit:If I can suggest something, put the flag on some kind of wood structure with ladder and no other way to get there. Or something like that so the mid flag takes much more time to grab (much more time = the time someone needs to get from cap to mid)
Anyway, nice map i really like your mapping style. And i hope your map gets played in matches, we all need new good maps.
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Nice reasoning here, BUT,
What if it was 1v1? The 2 players would be just capping the mid flag. So it would be like --> get to the lead by at least one mid flag cap, then make it 1v1 and go just cap it --> End.
OR,
What if it was 1v2? The player who is alone would get capped 2 mid flags if he didnt somehow overspeed the other 2 players.
OR,
even worse if the player who is alone would be (as you say) the camping one, they could jsut grab the mid flag and the player with flag could go near their cap and just wait for the player who is alone to go rush him so they can cap that flag and go cap again on him while the player who is alone would be in enemy base without any flag and surrended by 2 enemies. Surely this option would be available only if the opposite team (who is with 2 players alive) would be leading.
Srsly hope you can understand it, I just wanted to point out that the mid flag isnt that good as you may think. The reason why a mid flag is viable for shock is that the shock is small you can shoot from one "base" to another so you can hit capper even from your base (low possibility but still it makes the mid flag viable)
Edit:If I can suggest something, put the flag on some kind of wood structure with ladder and no other way to get there. Or something like that so the mid flag takes much more time to grab (much more time = the time someone needs to get from cap to mid)
Anyway, nice map i really like your mapping style. And i hope your map gets played in matches, we all need new good maps.
I do understand where your coming from, but the answer in all three situations is just don't cap :P Even if you get capped on first, you have to recognize that capping isn't in your best interest. That is something I enjoy about mid flag maps as well, sometimes the best strategy is to take and hold mid flag, waiting for respawns, or waiting for team support :D
On to beta 3!
Changes:
- Made side jump slightly easier. This jump wasn't even intended as a jump and was there for looks. I like its difficulty, but I did make it easier so that its more of a proper jump. There are many ways to move around the map without jumping at all, especially after the changes from b2.
- reduced mid flag value from 5 to 3. This flag seems to be the primary concern, and since I want it there, I have decided to reduce its impact on the game.
- I added clip brushes to those boxes so you don't get tripped up in those gaps. Good find ;)
- Oh and I left the water death zone. Try not to fall in :)
I hope no one takes offense to the suggestions I decide to implement or not. I like all the ideas, and the map is far better now then it was when first released!
Download Beta 3! I think its very close to complete. I would still appreciate a demo from a match, to make sure it plays alright :P
- Cusoman
Oh, and phat barrels are 4 teh winz.
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I do understand where your coming from, but the answer in all three situations is just don't cap :P Even if you get capped on first, you have to recognize that capping isn't in your best interest. That is something I enjoy about mid flag maps as well, sometimes the best strategy is to take and hold mid flag, waiting for respawns, or waiting for team support :D
From gameplay i saw in matches (it might be, because nowaday people dont know how to handle mid flag). Well yes you are right but still, but i just thought about something else. A player who is not holding mid flag gets disadvantage, because - he cant rush the player in base because he would cap, if he camps he will get capped aswell. But thats probably his problem he shouldnt have allowed the other player to grab a mid flag. Hmmm ok you won :D.
Looking forward to some gameplay tests and also next betas/final, would love to see how the mid flag works in match :P
Edit:
found a bug, shame on you chef! :P
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8494/paintball22012010520373.jpg)
Also what about this jump? Is it possible(Edit2:just made that jump its possible but really hard. Edit 3:hmpf that jump is easy if you go from the same base, i always tried to make it from the other base.)? Maybe you might consider making it easier because --> last screen.
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9362/paintball22012010520380.jpg)
If you made ^that^ jump easier it might be nice way for people who are trying to catch capper to actually catch him, if the capper makes mistake and fails that jump.
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4019/paintball22012010520381.jpg)
But also it could be too easier to line capper and kill him without even making that jump, well idk consider it ;).
Or you could keep where the cap is and just make that jump easier :D there would be still chance to catch a capper without cap being moved.
Demo:what the is that xD, it happens in build 32, but also in build 34 with new move physics!
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That is the jump that I just made easier lol. It was harder in b2, but I made it probably 50-60% of the time. Now in b3, I make that jump nearly every time. I attached a demo of me going 2/3 on it, but the first time was just me missing the boxes :P You are doing it in a weird way. Don't go to the side, just go over the middle and use the top of the bridge for speed :) In the demo there is also another jump that uses the top the bridge, which is probably the most fun on the map.
Nice find on the wood! Will fix for b4/final (depending on how much other stuff people find)
I will try to make the terrain smoother there to avoid the weird jump bug you found :)
- Cusoman
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That is the jump that I just made easier lol. It was harder in b2, but I made it probably 50-60% of the time. Now in b3, I make that jump nearly every time. I attached a demo of me going 2/3 on it, but the first time was just me missing the boxes :P You are doing it in a weird way. Don't go to the side, just go over the middle and use the top of the bridge for speed :) In the demo there is also another jump that uses the top the bridge, which is probably the most fun on the map.
Nice find on the wood! Will fix for b4/final (depending on how much other stuff people find)
I will try to make the terrain smoother there to avoid the weird jump bug you found :)
- Cusoman
Yep realized it after my post that i do it weird way :P
I think that jitspoe should look into that bug. Fixing it on one map is a temporaly solution, this is obviously some kind of movement bug which should have been already fixed? Its just weird that this can happen even tho i was recording on build 34 with new movement. So please look into it :) maybe fix for pretest2? :P
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Hey i got a demo for you too :P
Its from todays match on zephyrus_b2. Unfortunatelly _b3 wasnt online on otb so we played on b2.
I have to say, I really like that map. Its gameplay is based on rushing what is good for me. So i think i will continue to match on it from time to time ;)
Anyway here is the demo
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Beta 3 is now online @ [OTB] Beta!
I'd wish you'll change a few more stuff me and others mentioned, e.g. the barrels (size or top/bottom alignment).
- Minor, but on that same path [...left (high path) base entrance...] when exiting the base, there's a hole between the boxes (above the ramp) where, if you land in it, you can't jump to the next box. You have to back up, then jump. Kind of annoying if you happen to hit it. Maybe shift the boxes a bit or add something there.
Just read this while making a screenshot if it. A small box or a small clip brush should help.
- I added clip brushes to those boxes so you don't get tripped up in those gaps. Good find ;)
Oh, I meant that the gap (my 1st pic) is so big, that it's a little bit weird to stand in the air. I'd like to see the big gap not clipped because of that. A small box could help that no players get stuck in that gap.
found a bug, shame on you chef! :P
My bad, thanks :) That's the reason why it's very important to get feedback by different people.
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2890.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/2889.jpg)
Red: I'd add clip brushes here.
Not sure if you realized this, because the pic was broken the first time.
I didn't had enough time to test the gameplay yet :'(
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I preferred the roof over the white flag in b2. The b3 roof just has too much riveting. There's nothing to break it up. Also, the rivets cast shadows, so if you do want to use that, you'll need to rotate the textures on some sides so the lighting looks correct.
If you insist on the fat barrels, at least scale the top texture up to align them. Those textures weren't designed for 64unit wide barrels. They're designed for 48 units, so I guess that's a 1.33333x scale.
It doesn't look like you changed much, but the side jump is a lot easier. I can actually make it from the center now. Could you make it from the center in b2 (if so, demo)? I had to basically go base to base in order to build up enough velocity.
I find the box pile in the water frustratingly easy to overshoot. I guess that's part of the challenge, but is it fun? I've attached a demo so you can see a couple examples where it's easy to overshoot.
There's a small ledge with grass on it near the water platform, but it's too steep to jump onto. I think if you're going to use a grass texture, you should make the angle shallow enough that you can walk on it. I also have this pointed out at the end of the attached demo. As a bonus, it's another path out of the center if you get in a pinch.
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We played in couple of matches. I kind of like it, so far. As the match wasn't dominated by speedcapping or anything... I feel that the map pushes the players to position fights and that's good.
However, I think the mid area of the map is too big, overscaled. You have to aim to the sky to hit the opponent on the other side, which makes it a lottery, who gets who, in my opinion. Maybe add some more furniture there? So it's easier to sneak around and cover the white flag and not to worry about the opponent spraying randomly. I'm talking about the higher area between middle flag and base.
I didn't like that the middle flag was worth 5 points. Made the matches so obsessed about the white flag.
(we played _b2)
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Demo:what the is that xD, it happens in build 32, but also in build 34 with new move physics!
Your demo is really long, and you're constantly toggling noclip mode, so it's difficult to tell what's going on. Could you make a demo of just the issue?
After watching the demo, I have one other tiny suggestion - the box pile as you're entering the base on the right side could stand to have that first large box moved left just slightly so you can jump on the little box to the right of it.
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It doesn't look like you changed much, but the side jump is a lot easier. I can actually make it from the center now. Could you make it from the center in b2 (if so, demo)? I had to basically go base to base in order to build up enough velocity.
It can be done, but it took me a loong time to get. :P
The demo doesn't show it, but I had to practice for quite some time.
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We [kuc] like this map,played few times in a match.. its fun and different from the usual match maps, 5 points was a bit too much for mid fg but i think u already fixed it down to 3 points
Nice map !
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Your demo is really long, and you're constantly toggling noclip mode, so it's difficult to tell what's going on. Could you make a demo of just the issue?
Sorry, my bad. I included wrong demo. As soon as I get home i'll post the right demo.
Edit:Here we go. As i point out in demo, I hold only crouch key, becuase i release all other keys as soon as it starts lagging. I notice that it slightly happens even while standing but its hard to get to the right position
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Ah, same bug T3RR0R15T found. I think it's due to floating point precision issues in the compiler or some other bug causing the collision planes to overlap when they shouldn't. Merging the 2 brushes into 1 should fix it. I think Cusoman is already going to do this.
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Beta 4 !
Everything, aside from the barrels, is fixed :)
Specific to b4:
- Small box on side is accessible
- Terrain glitch is fixed
- Steep mid grass is now walkable (and leads to a few jumps)
- Flag stands are mist (in some demos people were getting stuck on them)
- Moved mid box further back, so that you have a higher chance of landing on it. Made sure it wasn't moved so far so that new players can still regular jump to it from the bridge rails :)
Have fun! Please update this on the server, and tell me how it plays :D
- Cusoman
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- Flag stands are mist (in some demos people were getting stuck on them)
Issues like that should be fixed with the new physics. :)
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Played this on the beta server with a couple of people. The white flag actually played better than I thought it would. I like the fact that when you get into a trading cap scenario, one person is going to come out ahead because he has an extra flag. It forces confrontation. 3 points might still be a little on the high side.
I don't like the fact that you can longball people clear across the map. It kind of makes the mid grassy areas unplayable. I'm not sure what you can do about that other than changing the equipment you spawn with. Running around by yourself in the map is fun -- finding ways to zip across the map, jumping across the flag roof, etc, trying to find different angles you can hit the high path to the flag base from. In practice, though, you can't do that because there's a stream of paint flying through each gap in the dam thing.
Only minor suggestion I have is to add some phong shading to a couple places on the grass (see screenshot) and use some clipping planes or something to tweak a few of the unnatural 90 degree rock edges. That and the barrels, of course. :)
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I dont think that the linig phase is scuh a problem. At least everytime we played that map on real match it never was. If everyone is lining to the other side over mid, just go through side and bs them all. Tho not sure if this is exactly what you were pointing out.
Anyway i am attaching pack of 4 demos from matches on zephyrus :P hope it helps you
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LC3URD92
PS:Jitspoe would it be possible to add buttong to clear attachment line? Because this .rar was too large to save and i had to copy my text go back and then click reply again. It is not that hard but annoying a bit ;)
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Thanks for all the feedback guys! This is the final beta! The changes are purely aesthetic. The game play is exactly how I want it, and I'm happy it was so thoroughly tested :D Post feedback on any other tweaks you would like me to make before final. I'll let this _b5 sit for awhile, to make sure there's enough time to critique, but after 5 betas I think you guys found everything :D
@Proza: So many demos! Thanks br0 :D
@Jitspoe: I legitimately tried to change the barrels... I just couldn't. It looked so bad. Shout-out to Viciouz! I was talking to him at the time, and even with his moral support I was unable to change them :P PHAT BARRELS 4EVAR!!!
- Cusoman
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You tried aligning the texture and it looked bad? I don't really see how this would be the case. Screenshot? I need to do HR4 barrel tops. Maybe that would help...
I got stuck between the box and the dam thing by the water and could not get out. Just walk/jump off the left side of the box and you'll get permanently stuck.
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Come on with the next beta, the map is great :)
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I got stuck between the box and the dam thing by the water and could not get out. Just walk/jump off the left side of the box and you'll get permanently stuck.
I don't remember why I didn't finish this map, but it seems to get some decent playing time.
I'll look into fixing that error, and see what else I can touch up for a _b6 or final.
- Cusoman
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BOOM BETA 6!
With the potential for an official maplist, I wanted to go through and cleanup my playable maps.
Changes in b6:
-fixed barrel sizes
-fixed some mid problems by adding a few new jumps and new platforms to the mid dam structure
-made ladders slightly thinner
Playtest, C&C please :)
- Cusoman
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Cool, moved it back to the "Beta/inprogress maps" board.
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The right exit out the box pile feels awkward. You either have to hit it really slow to hit the ramp at the bottom, or really fast to jump over the boxes. If you're anywhere in between, you usually get stopped/slowed down by the boxes a lot, and it's not fun.
Play tested it with a few people, and a couple were complaining about low framerate. I notice you have a bunch of func_walls in there... those kind of give you false lower r_speeds, as I don't think the func_walls are actually counted toward the r_speeds. Also, you certainly should not have large sections of func_wall like the rock wall area in base. All that does is introduce overdraw (it draws the the func_wall and the stuff behind it as well). Another side effect of the func_wall is that you lose the surface-specific sound effects, so you don't hear the wood/metal/etc. impacts.
Overall, I it plays pretty well, though.
On a side note, this map really makes me want to work on a new light program to properly handle ambient occlusion with sky lighting.
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the fcks a zephyrus, like sht. are u fckin euro no with these crazy fckin czech names that no1 understands. change the name and ppl might like the map.
It's the same as like 2 other maps you made though. Everytime I don't walk u through each step of your map, they turn out the exact same. u need me. outdoor_a3 , finish it. and that other one that i dont know the name of, but me and that 4 eyes overweight guy who u clanned with made it. (that was code for l!nk if u didn't understand, ok cuso?) no1 knows my hidden mapping talent besides cuso.
i like your barrels.
Zephrus is the reason I clicked it because it was a unique name. anyway i like the center portion of the map it looks really neat.
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When I started Zephyrus_b6 for the first time, I found 2 really anoying things. On first screenshot, those barrels are making me crazy, they are hurting my eyes as I am looking across the map on enemy main, I cant rly focus.
Second thing, second screenshot, who gave you the advice to make that? It is really horible. You could make a ramp instead. I dont see the point why make it easier, here are some examples - how easy is to jump on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE7b27pYp0o&feature=youtu.be
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b5 forever in our hearts
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Use the official textures when you don't like this barrels.
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Textures does not matter, barrels are anoying, plus official textures are ugly.
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Nice Barrels dude, they seem so fair, what package is this?
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Its a nice map, but some times my settings reset and barrels gone wild. some jumps are incorrect
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@jitspoe: why don't you like the func_walls? It means that you have to draw all the faces of a barrel, or have to draw the back wall of the mound of terrain, but no longer have to chop up the world and add horrible tiny triangles everywhere. It makes vis simpler and gives you less total vertices to draw. What impacts fps more? Entity vertices or world vertices? If they are equal, it makes sense to leave these things as func_walls to have less total vertices. I would like to know if I'm misunderstanding the advantages of func_walls (fewer total vertices.) If this is not an advantage, when, other than using triggers, would it be useful to have func_walls?
@smacker and others: I don't understand either of your concerns:
- barrels: these are a nice team indicator while looking out to mid and use the standard red barrel texture. Do you dislike the shape/placement of the barrels, or do you dislike how the light makes your textures look bright and silly?
- jumps/extra ledge thingy: I watched your youtube video and it shows how easy the jumps were on _b5. Are you upset that _b6 made jumps even easier? Adding the ledge doesn't get rid of any of those jumps, it just gives you more freedom to jump around, makes other jumps easier/possible, and makes the mid jumps less gimmicky. It also solved a problem jitspoe found in _b5 where you could get stuck on the boxes. Please try explaining why you don't like the ledge :)
Thanks for all the feedback everyone, I'll make the appropriate changes in _b7 after I get some clarification :)
- Cusoman
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how do those barrels give an advantage? they're pure red which makes it harder to see the opposing team.
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@Cusoman: I do not like the placement of those barrels. There is already one barrel on main and indication is on mid pillars too. I think those barrels are something extra and they do no fit there for me.
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@jitspoe: why don't you like the func_walls? It means that you have to draw all the faces of a barrel, or have to draw the back wall of the mound of terrain, but no longer have to chop up the world and add horrible tiny triangles everywhere. It makes vis simpler and gives you less total vertices to draw. What impacts fps more? Entity vertices or world vertices? If they are equal, it makes sense to leave these things as func_walls to have less total vertices. I would like to know if I'm misunderstanding the advantages of func_walls (fewer total vertices.) If this is not an advantage, when, other than using triggers, would it be useful to have func_walls?
The problem is when you use them for large brushes, like big rocks against the walls. You end up rendering the func_wall AND the wall behind it. Overdraw is usually more expensive than polygons, so even if the r_speeds are a little higher, the overall performance might be better. Also, I think there's a bug where func_walls don't count toward r_speeds (so the numbers you get aren't accurate - the r_speeds are actually higher than what's displayed). Also, func_walls are entities, which impacts network bandwidth.
For improving vis time, you should +detail all non-visblocking brushes (crates, barrels, railings, and other details).
I think the complaints about the ledge might be more of a visual thing. It looks sort of out of place.
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Alright thanks for all the feedback.
I'll play around with the mid stuff and change the large func_wall sections. I'll probably be raising the sky too, and unclipping it now that the skygliding has been finalized and has been implemented in multiple builds. (You shouldn't be able to hit the new sky height anyway)
I'll try to make the boxy sections of the outer walls in the base look more angular and match the mountain-y look of the other walls in the mid.
I'll try to find some time to crank out _b7 :)
Additionally, I'm going to revise some of sassault4 into a new _b4 and un func_wall some of the larger terrain sections, and try to find another new solution to the fps drop in the mid, though if you have any feedback or suggestions for sass4, please post those in the sass4 thread.
Thanks,
- Cusoman
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sweet you should finish my siege map for me too ;p the subway one you absolutely loved.
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vis doesn't render brushes with the 'detail' flag set. Much easier than func_walls.
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vis doesn't render brushes with the 'detail' flag set. Much easier than func_walls.
func_walls and the "detail" flag do very different things.
Brushes with the "detail" flag will be ignored for VIS calculations.
Brushes that are made into func_walls are treated like entities, and are ignored by the BSP world vertex calculations and the VIS calculations.
For example: If you had an 8 sided barrel sitting in a square room, setting the barrel to detail would make the barrel invisible to the VIS process, but not the BSP process. Making it a func_wall would stop the barrel from chopping up the square room into irregular pieces, and be ignored by the VIS process. It would, however, draw the bottom face of the barrel over the floor, introducing the overdraw Jitspoe was talking about.
When Jitspoe suggested making brushes "detail", he did not mean they were substitutes for a func_walls, only that they will improve the compilation time because VIS will ignore them, and that func_walls shouldn't be used for compilation time improvements.
I will be leaving many of the barrels and boxes as func_walls because they are located next to complex triangle brushwork, and I do not want to exponentially increase the number of triangles in those areas. However, for large terrain pieces, I can make all of those brushes detail because I don't want them to contribute to VIS, and because the overdraw on such large irregular faces negates the improvements of making them func_walls.
- Cusoman
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I'd like to see this map finalized. Keep up the good work, Cuso!
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I don't see any major issues with this map -- I think we could probably just move it out of beta unless you have further plans. It can always be updated later.