Digital Paint Discussion Board
Digital Paint Community => Clans, Matches, and Tournaments => Topic started by: JMR on December 29, 2013, 10:52:23 AM
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Hello there supreme champions, start up clans and the like. I will try to keep this topic small and simple.
DP:PB2 as we know it, will now change. There have been large spots of inactivity over the past year. 2013 hasn't been much of a good year for DP:pb2.
At least, that's how it was until October. I discovered that there was nothing really 'happening' anymore on paintball. There were not enough clans to have a competitive match scene and no competitions to get things buzzing. That's when I decided to perform a test, to see the true state of paintball. Some may see paintball as a dead old game, with no active clans. I see paintball as a game, with many clans, which only play when they have some competition. So I set out to see actually what players would play more actively, if I started a 2v2 tournament series. A simple, no-hassle, straight out 2v2 tournament series where no clans were involved. Just the player's passion to have fun.
Here was my goal after the first 5 had finished:
Okay, so, say we finish these 5 tournaments, where do we go from here? What is the point of these? Well, eventually, we have plans to livestream each tournament, with commentary Etc. As it progresses, more players may join back to the game, as there is something to practice for. Then, as more players progress, them 2v2 teams could turn into clans, once there are then a lot more clans, 3v3 tournaments can be a possibility!
The benefit of livestreaming and running the tournament by that is, everyone who enters, just watches the livestream, all announcements of servers there and, newbies from pub servers don't need ts3, they just watch the stream! This way, newbies can see it being streamed and will want them to be on it, a good way to introduce newbies to the scene.
The first 2v2 tournament started and to my surprise 4 teams turned up. I was unsure if anyone would actually want to participate, being as this wasn't really anything exciting. But then it hit me, these teams hadn't had anything to look forward to for months, if not a year in paintball! All these teams needed were some sort of competition to cling to grow off that. So then, with that passion, I held another tournament and to my delight, mostly the same teams had turned up! From then on, we had 7+ teams of 2 turning up every other week (which was when the tournaments were held). Then it got to the last one in the series, I wanted to do this with style. I wanted to livestream the whole thing, with live running commentary. BOOM, 12 teams turned up, was a fantastic event. In the end I was thinking, 'where did all these people come from'. They were like sleeping giants, asleep yet ever so powerful once awakened.
So where am I going with this? Well, my point is, we don't NEED to wait for new features. paintball is perfectly equipped enough already for leagues and cups, what it takes is for US to do OUR bit. It takes is passion, time and effort, yet the effect it has on a game like this can be amazing! AND this is why I am planning this special operation:back in business. We're like a store that's open, but not putting ourselves out there, lets get out there and show the true side of paintball!
INTRODUCING, Special Op: Back in Business!
This operation is all about using what we have and using paintball to it's FULL esports type potential. A lot like what they did with pbcup, but we have more technology again now.
Basically, in short, the special operation is a mix of paintball2 events, that should hopefully bring even more clans back to the game.
I plan to continue the 3v3 tournament series, this will ensure that the current clans can compete.
I plan to make a advert/commercial, this will encourage new players to compete and join a clan.
I plan to encourage others, to practice, this will ensure good quality competition
Once most clans are practicing and matching eachother, entering the tournaments and new players are joining in, this is when the operation is reaching it's prime. This is where, I hope, what I call the splash effect will occur, where other gamers out there see the competition in paintball and would like to join in, create their clan here and participate in the esports-like competitions. Just think for a moment guys, there are some gamer clans out there that are 30-people teams. Teams in which play a variety of games together, to get that competition that makes games fun for them. All it would take is one of them to add 30 more players to the game, constantly matching. That's just one good example of how the splash effect can help the game. It's about not only new players, but existing players seeing the true potential of the game and joining in to the competition.
Are you with me? Want this operation to be a success? Here's what I need to do:
• Create a commercial/advert to advertise the special tournaments (showing live commentary snipbits, good shots Etc)
• Create a sPec map list series (like pbcup did) of top quality maps that will give the game a new fresh feel.
• Create a solid ranking system for the tournaments series and eventually create a leage.
Afraid of change? Like the smell of inactivity? Like funclans where you just play speed servers all day? Well beggars cannot be choosers and with this operation, this game will be going down the competitive road, no matter what. Competetive teams and players around paintball2 invite you to try it out! It will give you achievements to show for. Coming 8th in a 16 team tournament is great! There are plenty of us that would encourage you and guide you throughout your matching career with your clan. We are out there, you just have to try and search. Make NEW friends and play paintball in this new way (to you).
So, this is a 2-way operation. I can do my bit and put my all into it, but it does require loyal teams sticking together, practicing, setting an example for others to follow. It also requires teams turning up. It will be for your benefit and will majorly benefit the game!
Here's a list to make it easier:
• Join a team if you are not already in one, can't find a clan for you? Start a new one! Maybe there's others in the same boat, team up together!
• Idle on IRC #tournaments channel and #paintball at irc.globalgamers.net. Also try to idle on the common teamspeak3 servers, otb-server.de and clanprozak.us
• Practice, practice, practice. Make it hard for other teams to rank ahead of you. Scrimming often in serious matches is a great way to intimidate other teams, as well as strengthening your own clan's teamwork.
• Accept change. Some things will be done differently, like different maps, livestreams and new ranking system for the tournaments. Change isn't always for the best, but I'm telling you, it won't work out for the best if you don't accept to try it.
This operation primary is about making paintball more fun by increasing the ability to be competitive and increasing the amount of competition.
League incoming @ 2014. Clans, get ready, prepare.
Become a part of something special, not in a clan? Join one!
That is all, thanks for reading ( if you did ). I look forward as you join me in this operation.
-JMR
Please refrain from flame and offtopic discussion here. This topic is strictly for discussion related to the special operation: back in business.
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I'll join if it means getting this game more active again. :D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKw5mbcE7VY listen to this while reading.
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wow. it's nice to see someone trying to get a leading position in this "operation". I really hope this can turn out the way you/ we all want to turn it out... reactive and expand the matching scene.
If the community decides to run this, I WOULD MAKE A MAP / SOME MAPS for this!
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Please, don't make it "spec" maps. Make it some form of a tournament/league/series name you're running - not a team name. Pbcup wasn't eR33t - it was Paintball Cup maps. Do something similar, naming after a clan isn't the best way of making a series - even if the maps turn out good. Ignoring the name, I'm not so sure making an entirely new maplist of 'spec' maps is good. Maps like Carpathian, arguably Pbcup_pforest as well are perfect for how DP is currently played. Make an official maplist first, and try to remove specific maps (the least played) out, everytime you(or "spec") makes a new map. But put EACH map into competitive playtesting (play them vs GOOD teams, like DR34M/Trio) so you get real feedback. Watch other teams match on it too, before forcing it upon people. Cause the new maps could make or break peoples participation. Upfront forcing may not be the best idea.
Good idea, but learn from my mistakes - people don't like to read for the most part. Try to make the post shorter if you'd like more people in this community to read it. But I read it, and it's a start of something. Should run a "Community video contest" (assuming Jitspoe gives the OK) - to get a community ad video / montage / whatever , that gets a spot on the website for the best one. Gives some incentive for others to participate in the ad/commercial, and also provides it with more benefit if it's on the website for people to see.
DR34M will stick together for this, and try to participate as much as we can (taking into account we do work and some of us are in school). Single day events shouldn't be that hard, we can potentially recruit some subs to make it easier to commit.
Hope other NA teams participate too, I mean there's literally nothing to lose by helping out in this. It's a game most of the current community members have played for years, why not try 1 last competitive thing before giving up on it completely.
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Please, don't make it "spec" maps. Make it some form of a tournament/league/series name you're running - not a team name. Pbcup wasn't eR33t - it was Paintball Cup maps. Do something similar, naming after a clan isn't the best way of making a series - even if the maps turn out good. Ignoring the name, I'm not so sure making an entirely new maplist of 'spec' maps is good. Maps like Carpathian, arguably Pbcup_pforest as well are perfect for how DP is currently played. Make an official maplist first, and try to remove specific maps (the least played) out, everytime you(or "spec") makes a new map. But put EACH map into competitive playtesting (play them vs GOOD teams, like DR34M/Trio) so you get real feedback. Watch other teams match on it too, before forcing it upon people. Cause the new maps could make or break peoples participation. Upfront forcing may not be the best idea.
Good idea, but learn from my mistakes - people don't like to read for the most part. Try to make the post shorter if you'd like more people in this community to read it. But I read it, and it's a start of something. Should run a "Community video contest" (assuming Jitspoe gives the OK) - to get a community ad video / montage / whatever , that gets a spot on the website for the best one. Gives some incentive for others to participate in the ad/commercial, and also provides it with more benefit if it's on the website for people to see.
DR34M will stick together for this, and try to participate as much as we can (taking into account we do work and some of us are in school). Single day events shouldn't be that hard, we can potentially recruit some subs to make it easier to commit.
Hope other NA teams participate too, I mean there's literally nothing to lose by helping out in this. It's a game most of the current community members have played for years, why not try 1 last competitive thing before giving up on it completely.
Thank you very much for your feedback MyeRs.
I personally disagree though, with anything wrong with the name "spec_" before a map. There are no other tags that describe the tournament series. It's a #sPec# tournament series. I'd obviously make sure the maps meet tournament standards, with the methods you provided. If this clan were to die in the future, it doesn't matter. You still play pbcup maps, even though pbcup no longer occurs. Same priniciple could be applied for spec_. spec_ itself stands for special_, the maps will be unique in a good way.
I had some other ideas for tags, such as "esports_" and "comp_" but those are too generic. I'm practically creating a style and brand with #sPec#. After putting all the effort into it, I don't see anything with using my clan tag with pride for the tournaments. After all, it could be worse, I could use "jmr_"
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This makes me want to get into the competitive scene. Problem is I'm busy most of the time with school-related stuff so I'm not sure I'll find enough time for competitive gaming.
I am, however, willing to do the mapping part of this operation, or at least some of it. JMR is obviously a lot better than me at terrain mapping and making things that don't have 90 degree planes. I'm not as good at that; I consider my strong suit to be creativity and originality. Maybe once New York is finished, I could start working on some more match-friendly maps to add to the competitive scene, and maybe have JMR help me with terraining.
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As Myers said, i tried reading through whole post, but didnt get what it was about lol. I figured it out later with reactions of others.
So if i actually understood it right, and part of this is another "tournament" like pbcup was, then we are in. I would be willing to make locs for each of your maps + test them in some scrims. Also I could get ready and stream every event we would participate in.
A good idea might be to get someone, who makes nice videos to make some kind of highlight videos for each event.
PS:If i didnt understand it right, i am studying for my final exams at university so didnt focus on understanding it that much.
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As Myers said, i tried reading through whole post, but totally didnt get what it was about lol. I figured it out later with reaction of others.
So if i actually understood it right, and part of this is another "tournament" like pbcup was, then we are in. I would be willing to make locs for each of your maps + test them in some scrims. Also I could get ready and stream every event we would participate in.
A good idea might be to get someone, who makes nice videos to make some kind of highlight videos for each event.
PS:If i didnt understand it right, i am studying for my final exams at university so didnt focus on understanding it that much.
Nice suggestions!
It sounds like you understood correctly. Basically it's my overall plan to make the competitive scene active again. :) A big part of which, is a league.
I'd love it if you make locs for the future maps, that would be great! I was planning on doing this myself, but It's really nice to have some help. Current map I am working on: http://i.imgur.com/JLJYfOD.jpg
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If you want 'good' playtesting, get DR34M to play against Trio to playtest maps. After a few matches on it, it'll be easy to know if the map has potential to play well or not. Good teams with experienced players will provide better feedback.
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If you want 'good' playtesting, get DR34M to play against Trio to playtest maps. After a few matches on it, it'll be easy to know if the map has potential to play well or not. Good teams with experienced players will provide better feedback.
Super! Thanks guys for this support!
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Most posts are too long. Can someone make TL:DR version for me?
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Let me know if you'd like any help mapping/any map ideas.
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I'd be willing to help in anyway I can. Mapping, play testing, data entry etc.
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^ If you want this to succeed (mapping-wise only), I would recommend only getting experienced-good mappers to help out. Rick is a good example of that, Cusoman would be another. They'll be able to help a bunch more. Looking at their maps in comparison to 95% of the mappers around, they are visually WAY nicer, as well as typically flow decently well. Then play-testing as well should be done by experienced players (as mentioned above) to get more criticism.
To get a good map within "experienced" community members it will take time - but honestly, people should be excluded from the mapping aspect if you want it to turn out as good as possible. Not everyone is on the same level, and the more people you include the more headaches it causes by sending it around. Ideas-wise, anyone could help, though.
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^ If you want this to succeed (mapping-wise only), I would recommend only getting experienced-good mappers to help out. Rick is a good example of that, Cusoman would be another. They'll be able to help a bunch more. Looking at their maps in comparison to 95% of the mappers around, they are visually WAY nicer, as well as typically flow decently well. Then play-testing as well should be done by experienced players (as mentioned above) to get more criticism.
To get a good map within "experienced" community members it will take time - but honestly, people should be excluded from the mapping aspect if you want it to turn out as good as possible. Not everyone is on the same level, and the more people you include the more headaches it causes by sending it around. Ideas-wise, anyone could help, though.
JMR's maps looks good, but gameplay is bad on the most of them, he needs better ideas. Clipz is helping him a lot with his new map and im giving him feedbacks too.
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JMR's maps looks good, but gameplay is bad on the most of them, he needs better ideas. Clipz is helping him a lot with his new map and im giving him feedbacks too.
Eh, I remember Clipz helping out on pp3...
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Eh, I remember Clipz helping out on pp3...
Oh pls, pp3 is the best thing that ever happened to PB.
But seriously, i like pp3. I would trade pp1 for pp3 anytime.
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^ If you want this to succeed (mapping-wise only), I would recommend only getting experienced-good mappers to help out. Rick is a good example of that, Cusoman would be another. They'll be able to help a bunch more. Looking at their maps in comparison to 95% of the mappers around, they are visually WAY nicer, as well as typically flow decently well. Then play-testing as well should be done by experienced players (as mentioned above) to get more criticism.
To get a good map within "experienced" community members it will take time - but honestly, people should be excluded from the mapping aspect if you want it to turn out as good as possible. Not everyone is on the same level, and the more people you include the more headaches it causes by sending it around. Ideas-wise, anyone could help, though.
I don't have to actually do all the dirty work on BSP if it would be better if I didn't; I could just supply ideas when they're needed.
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Oh pls, pp3 is the best thing that ever happened to PB.
But seriously, i like pp3. I would trade pp1 for pp3 anytime.
I like pp3 too, well, the mapping of it. The whole idea of it sucked, though. ;)
#cusobestmapperever
#cuso4lyf
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Baseballdude: The feedback likely would come from more experienced people to via play testing. It's the only way to get "real" feedback. And 2 of the top teams provides the best feedback, especially since they're used matching vs eachother.
Aveiro: JMR's visuals have improved, and overall mapping have improved - but for a "series" of tournaments to be played on Spec maps, it'll need to come near DT level mapping. In this community, I would say Rick and Cusoman are the ONLY ones who can come near to his visuals. Sure, Clipz can help him with some gameplay, same as any other player who's played this game competitively - but he isn't a good technical mapper. The map needs to flow, something that Rick/Cusoman have been able to do. Sadly, Rick doesn't have that big of a 'mapping' name cause he hasn't released much. But I feel like Rick is equally as good as Cusoman, and both are the 2nd best mappers to play this game. So I would certainly suggest Rick having a big impact on these maps. It'd help JMR improve his mapping at the same time by mapping with a better mapper.
Proza: PP3_b1/2 were good, whatever the versions on most servers suck. Too many catwalks. Too easy to cap. Jumps too easy.
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I think overhang is JMR's best map, and so far his only chance to come close to DT level mapping, unless he makes another map with as great of gameplay and visuals as overhang.
By the way, I wish you would finish overhang!
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Overhang is really good except for obstacles blocking your jumps. But otherwise, it's got the potential to be a top map.
Sorry JMR, we digressed a little. As far as the mapping part of this operation goes, I think JMR is worthy to make some of these maps. Cuso and Rick could also participate, and I could help out with general gameplay and aesthetics but not so much with the technical details.
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@JMR: The above 2 posts are my reasoning for getting experienced players to help with this. Not going to write in detail as I think it's self explanatory. People who have been around for years matching competitively know what kind of maps work and which don't. Those who have been around mapping, know more about quality/BSP things. Take experienced opinions if you want best results.
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MyeRs, nobody's been experienced forever. This seems like a good way to get old players playing again AND to give new players a competitive opportunity to gain experience.
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I'd say to proceed as you started, JMR. No hassle. "Special maplist" is a hassle.
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spcup_kingdom, coming soon :)
spcup = special cup :D
(http://i.imgur.com/o5iDoYD.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7uni4h3.jpg)
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Looks nice from the screenshots!
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I wouldn't recommend posting them all in here as it'll get pretty cluttered - but from the first screenshot (may be different in game) - it looks like there's too big of a slant on the ground near the right ramp. I feel like if you accidentally hit the side you could bounce the wrong way. It looks better than other stuff you've made thusfar.
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People pass on many new maps before they are played to their full potential. I can give anyone a demo on me on overhang vs inte to see how that map can flow in the right hands, 21-8 vs a team much better than me but just because they don't know how to play it to its full potential. My point is every spcup map needs to be play tested alot more than usual to get a true feel for it.
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People pass on many new maps before they are played to their full potential. I can give anyone a demo on me on overhang vs inte to see how that map can flow in the right hands, 21-8 vs a team much better than me but just because they don't know how to play it to its full potential. My point is every spcup map needs to be play tested alot more than usual to get a true feel for it.
Winning by knowing a map another team doesn't know isn't the map being good - it's the other team not playing it. Also, we (myself, shk, chalk, and some random) beat you guys 4on4 on overhang. It did not play well at all. None of us found it an interesting match. It was a predictable linefest mid, and since we didn't know the map we went the same path every round - and were able to win + cap on you guys. It just didn't play well. You're not experienced in matching. A bunch of maps enter the match scene, very few get picked up. It's hard to get real flow. JMR has improved drastically at technical mapping - the one comment we all thought about his most recent map was that it LOOKED good - but he still needs help getting to the level of flow and gameplay of better/currently used maps.
A problem with JMR's mapping in my eyes = 1) He tries too hard to make it detailed when sometimes simplicity works (example is wobluda, the most simple map) -- Then again, his detail does make his mapping look visually better. 2) He's inexperienced competitively (therefore, he doesn't have the skill that someone that DT did when he made maps or the experience, this is the same problem cusoman had). So, for this reason they (him, Cusomann, some other mappers) will never be able to make the difficult jumps that DT made in his maps. I know for Cusoman - if he could make the jumps on his map, then they were never hard as he wasn't a good jumper. I haven't seen JMR jump - so I can't commennt in regards to him on that, but it appears like he's becoming very similar to Cusoman in mapping. He has a bit of a way to go, but he's following that path.
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Are you planning to make spcup_wobluda?
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Are you planning to make spcup_wobluda?
Maybe, but I would do a complete remake, new layout with wobluda ideas incorporated.
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**edited because this wasn't needed to be looked at anymore and was already answered**
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@Gingerboy and lazers: please stop giving suggestions if you want this idea to work out.
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I read this thread over again, and there were parts saying only things you could do.
All we could do was join a team and just start from there. But can't we do anything to help you, JMR?
I'd be willing to help, but it doesn't seem like you want us to do as much work in this as you!
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Pester me to make news posts for upcoming tournaments. I'd like to more officially support some of these community driven tournaments and events.
Also, I mentioned this before, but I'm not a fan of the prefixes. If people run 10 different tournament series, are we going to have 10 different sets of map prefexes (pbcup_, spcup_, ??cup_, ...)? If an existing map is good enough to use in the tournaments, will it have to be remade or renamed to conform to the naming standard? What about the official map list? If maps are good enough to be officially part of the game, I don't really want a hodgepodge mix of naming conventions. Plus it's just more to type when executing map-related console commands.
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Pester me to make news posts for upcoming tournaments. I'd like to more officially support some of these community driven tournaments and events.
Speaking of tournaments, why don't you make a tournaments child board in the Clans, Matches, and Tournaments Section?
It would be a much more organized way to organize your tournaments, and you can make multiple posts (about details, times, servers, brackets, etc.) that don't spam the whole board, and so they don't overlap other people's posts about other things.
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Pester me to make news posts for upcoming tournaments. I'd like to more officially support some of these community driven tournaments and events.
Also, I mentioned this before, but I'm not a fan of the prefixes. If people run 10 different tournament series, are we going to have 10 different sets of map prefexes (pbcup_, spcup_, ??cup_, ...)? If an existing map is good enough to use in the tournaments, will it have to be remade or renamed to conform to the naming standard? What about the official map list? If maps are good enough to be officially part of the game, I don't really want a hodgepodge mix of naming conventions. Plus it's just more to type when executing map-related console commands.
Great jitspoe!
However, I highly disagree with your opinion on name prefixes. Think of it as like a 'brand' of map. If I want to see a list of pbcup maps, they are all there in one place on the map admin panel. It groups a selection of maps together :)
If the official maplist were to come out, then I suppose changes could be made, to for example spcup_kingdom, to kingdom, but remakes wouldn't really work out, if pbcup_pforest had to be changed to pforest, for the official maplist, then it would have to overwrite the origional.
For the tournaments, spcup_ defines the official maplist for this.
spcup_ is a mix of full out remakes and brand new maps built to be fairly realistic, highly detailed and most importantly, competitive gameplay.
Btw LaZeRs, I don't think a remake of daylight is a good idea.
Jitspoe, an idea I had was, if there's a livestream or something going on, for say a tournament. Could there be a special area on the main page, advertising it?
I was talking to a group of random gamers yesterday on teamspeak3. They seemed pretty interested in joining paintball2. So I gave them a link to the livestream of the tournament and told them it had true esports potential :), I think it would do the game good.
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Make a remake of daylight too. (spcup_daylight :D)
Right. My bad.
I read this thread over again, and there were parts saying only things you could do.
All we could do was join a team and just start from there. But can't we do anything to help you, JMR?
I'd be willing to help, but it doesn't seem like you want us to do as much work in this as you!
...But you still haven't answered this question.
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Right. My bad.
...But you still haven't answered this question.
You help by participating in events and practicing. :)
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Alright. I'd be willing to help you with anything you need that's non-map or non-IRC related. :D
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Who else besides JMR will be designing maps?
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He seems to want to do everything technical (map design, tournament organizing, etc.), and just let us participate in events and practicing. Not much for us to do here, but okay then. :-\
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What happened to this?
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What happened to this?
We gotta wait for JMR to finish his maps.
JMR, why don't you let other people participate in map-making for this operation? Cuso and Rick both have the talent to create good tourney maps. And by the way, on which map are you currently working?
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We gotta wait for JMR to finish his maps.
JMR, why don't you let other people participate in map-making for this operation? Cuso and Rick both have the talent to create good tourney maps.
When is the last time Rick actually "Finished" a map? He can do it but just never finishes. Cuso probably doesn't map enough anymore. He could do it to. I have 0 motivation to ever map again. Everyone else cant map at a high level. No reason to have other waste time making more maps that wont get played...
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When is the last time Rick actually "Finished" a map? He can do it but just never finishes. Cuso probably doesn't map enough anymore. He could do it to. I have 0 motivation to ever map again. Everyone else cant map at a high level. No reason to have other waste time making more maps that wont get played...
That's very true, I'm kind of a perfectionist. It's mostly because I don't want to release a map that is just another random, blocky, misaligned, piece of crap that most maps on the pub scene are right now.
That being said, I don't actually agree with you about there being no other good mappers.
JMR - Although he has trouble with gameplay, he is very eager to learn. He takes in all feedback, good or bad, and is usually willing to reconstruct his whole map if someone says it's bad.
Ace - Definitely not a very technical mapper (going from what I have seen), but has a very good eye for what looks good.
BASEBALLDUDE - Even though he is a bit arrogant and I haven't really liked any of his maps yet, he has learnt a lot of techniques and has been very eager to try new things (like making his own textures).
The sPec squad (I count Matze here) - Omni/Stomper/Mission/etc.. are a great bunch of kids, who are learning together how to map. I love it. They have each released a few maps, and have been willing to take in feedback.
sbi - Has potential to map some good match maps if he sticks with mapping and learns a bit more.
obigl - Great gameplay mapper. He seems to be always floating around.
proza - Released a pretty good map.
Viciouz - He's always around. Great technical mapper.
open_war - Seems very eager to learn, very unique mapper.
(Probably missed a bunch, sorry Euro's)
They aren't perfect mappers, I don't think anyone but Cusoman is/were even close to being a perfect mapper. They just need to keep trying and we need to be willing to give proper feedback, without flaming/abusing them.
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No reason to have other waste time making more maps that wont get played...
This is the biggest issue. All the new maps rarely get played. Partially because people don't know them, and partially because people don't want to learn them.
Second biggest is the learning curve in BSP. It's massive.
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Okay, so me and JMR were discussing the spcup league. He is thinking of having one in the summer and one of the aims was to get new maps played. This is what the spcup maps are being made for. The idea at the moment is that the maplist for the league would be mostly spcup maps/ new maps but there would be some classic map choices- about 80%-20% split. We don't want to force these new maps otherwise no one would play the league, but if you don't learn the new maps inside out- then you will be at a disadvantage. Things you guys should do:
-come up with map ideas, it is going to be hard to be original with just one person deciding what theme a map is. Some of you should make a bsp file and then send it to jmr to see what you two could do
-learn the new maps. There will be a league with them in.
-take the new maps on the chin- fresh new stuff to play, at a better quality than most new maps so don't be too hasty in complaining because you don't like change.
JMR wants to make this the best league yet- I won't say too much because he might want to explain it at a date closer to the league, but livestreaming the matches and creating a great system for the league is just the start, the bare minimum.
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This is the biggest issue. All the new maps rarely get played. Partially because people don't know them, and partially because people don't want to learn them.
I'd also add that the more experienced mappers don't seem to want to help the newer mappers. They say the map is excrement and to start over, but rarely seem to tell them how to do it properly or even how to fix the problem. They also seem to mock some of the new mappers and even harass them inside and outside of the game.
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I'd also add that the more experienced mappers don't seem to want to help the newer mappers. They say the map is excrement and to start over, but rarely seem to tell them how to do it properly or even how to fix the problem. They also seem to mock some of the new mappers and even harass them inside and outside of the game.
MyeRs is not an "experienced mapper."
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Next spcup map progress:
(http://i.imgur.com/lgnHfkO.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/750o4IM.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fYoIDEi.jpg)
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I'd also add that the more experienced mappers don't seem to want to help the newer mappers. They say the map is excrement and to start over, but rarely seem to tell them how to do it properly or even how to fix the problem. They also seem to mock some of the new mappers and even harass them inside and outside of the game.
One of the best things to come out of the contest was more feedback than any map by a "non-mapper" has gotten in a very long time.
Invite clans back to the game and invite newbs to the match scene, tell them about the league.
It would be encouraging to some of the newer people if they didn't get matched against some the best people in the first round. Go ahead and play them later, but why not let people play someone close to their skill level in early rounds. In the old q2 jump tournaments there was two tiers, which played separate until later on, where a larger chunk was taken from T1, and a smaller portion from T2. This let some of the people that weren't as good at least have a chance at playing for more than 10 minutes. And in the end, the results are usually the same, but with more play time for everyone involved, which is never a bad thing.
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MyeRs is not an "experienced mapper."
Grow up and stop trying to start an argument when you PM me crying sincerely asking me to leave you be like a little 12 year old insecure girl. He never mentioned myself in there, yet I am a better mapper than you, and I know 100x more than you. Shut the intercourse up and move along kid.
ON TOPIC:
If your league works out, it's adds competitiveness to the game. Which this game is lacking. Although that doesn't attract new players, it brings back a few players who left due to lack of competitiveness. So the league being ready attracts a few players back.
Attracting new players is just hard, it doesn't seem like any current-"ok"-players care to get good. So there's not much point in helping them get better if they don't care. Why waste the time? It's hard to find people who want to get better. It seems like every generation of people care less and less about getting better and being good, and play more for playing with friends. Which is completely fine, but it's hard to run leagues/tournaments or maintain competitiveness when the majority rather just play for fun with friends. I'm willing to help people improve if it means there will be another few teams to match, but it's impossible to find people. I can hardly find english-speaking people.
To the current spcup map: Looks like your mapping style is similar to Robinhoods from the screenshots. At least, that's who it reminded me of while looking at it. The way the base is formatted at the moment (purely from screenshots and may be completely wrong) - looks similar to Greenhill (but larger). Make sure the right side of base isn't the only easy path to grab, otherwise sitting on flag is too easy to camp. 1 Flag maps are great, but maps like PP1 are the best concepts for 1 flag, even Airtime in a sense, cause you can set up flags in 3v1 situations. But it all comes down to how it flows overall, right now it certainly looks nice and less crazy terrain is nice as well.
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Grow up and stop trying to start an argument when you PM me crying sincerely asking me to leave you be like a little 12 year old insecure girl. He never mentioned myself in there, yet I am a better mapper than you, and I know 100x more than you. Shut the intercourse up and move along kid.
ON TOPIC:
If your league works out, it's adds competitiveness to the game. Which this game is lacking. Although that doesn't attract new players, it brings back a few players who left due to lack of competitiveness. So the league being ready attracts a few players back.
Attracting new players is just hard, it doesn't seem like any current-"ok"-players care to get good. So there's not much point in helping them get better if they don't care. Why waste the time? It's hard to find people who want to get better. It seems like every generation of people care less and less about getting better and being good, and play more for playing with friends. Which is completely fine, but it's hard to run leagues/tournaments or maintain competitiveness when the majority rather just play for fun with friends. I'm willing to help people improve if it means there will be another few teams to match, but it's impossible to find people. I can hardly find english-speaking people.
To the current spcup map: Looks like your mapping style is similar to Robinhoods from the screenshots. At least, that's who it reminded me of while looking at it. The way the base is formatted at the moment (purely from screenshots and may be completely wrong) - looks similar to Greenhill (but larger). Make sure the right side of base isn't the only easy path to grab, otherwise sitting on flag is too easy to camp. 1 Flag maps are great, but maps like PP1 are the best concepts for 1 flag, even Airtime in a sense, cause you can set up flags in 3v1 situations. But it all comes down to how it flows overall, right now it certainly looks nice and less crazy terrain is nice as well.
yes
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It would be encouraging to some of the newer people if they didn't get matched against some the best people in the first round. Go ahead and play them later, but why not let people play someone close to their skill level in early rounds. In the old q2 jump tournaments there was two tiers, which played separate until later on, where a larger chunk was taken from T1, and a smaller portion from T2. This let some of the people that weren't as good at least have a chance at playing for more than 10 minutes. And in the end, the results are usually the same, but with more play time for everyone involved, which is never a bad thing.
The league would be a double round robin with points not rounds. Everyone would get 14 matches if there were 8 teams, then the 3 teams with the most points after the double round robin go to a final.
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Next spcup map progress:
Nothing against the grass/rock/wood platform maps, but there a LOT of them. Might want to vary up some of the future sp maps.
The league would be a double round robin with points not rounds. Everyone would get 14 matches if there were 8 teams, then the 3 teams with the most points after the double round robin go to a final.
Alright, didn't read his post all the way, assumed it was the same as before. This makes a lot more sense. I still think the issue is going to be finding 'new' teams that will actually play their matches.
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The league should be like the old PB Cups. Not these one day tourneys. Too bad the old league formats wouldn't work today like they once did.
Not to sure about the rest of you but I get quite bored of dp after one or two matches.
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Nothing against the grass/rock/wood platform maps, but there a LOT of them. Might want to vary up some of the future sp maps.
An industrial map is next :)
The league should be like the old PB Cups. Not these one day tourneys. Too bad the old league formats wouldn't work today like they once did.
JMR wants the league to be bigger and better than pbcup and he has tryed contacting the guy who ran pbcup for advice but he apparently ignored him. It all comes down to how many teams actually participate- as many as possible.
Not to sure about the rest of you but I get quite bored of dp after one or two matches.
Maybe learning the 5 new maps will add a freshness to the game
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Maybe learning the 5 new maps will add a freshness to the game
Who knows but probably not. No offense JMR they could be great maps, just interest isn't quite there right now.
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The idea is nice, tho the problem is it has been prolonged for too long. If you didnt post about it i would have totally forgot it.
Anyway, i guess we would be up for participating, but i dont know if we would be able to find the time to do it (altho you said that there would be few days window to get the match done). University is keeping me and spain occupied, while picky has to work to feed his starving children. I guess we might be able to make it tho, especially with the window mentioned above.
As for the support, i am still willing to make locs for your spcup maps, even tho my plan to remake all the locs got ruined (basically i thought university starts month later heh ^^) so i did only few maps.
Also, if i was able to find some time i would be glad to help you stream/commentate matches. My internet sucks atm, so i cant stream while playing, but hopefully i will be able to sort it out.
If you need anything else let me know. GL
PS:
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proza - Released a pretty good map.
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OMGOMG someone mentioned me in mapping post, i can leave this world in peace now!
Rick <3 ^^
EDIT:
To the current spcup map: Looks like your mapping style is similar to Robinhoods from the screenshots. At least, that's who it reminded me of while looking at it. The way the base is formatted at the moment (purely from screenshots and may be completely wrong) - looks similar to Greenhill (but larger). Make sure the right side of base isn't the only easy path to grab, otherwise sitting on flag is too easy to camp.
Honestly, i feel like its diferent to RH style, tho i havent played that much of his maps so cant judge it correctly. He has some nice ways there (i guess you can get on high where the two crates are). And if you look closely, there are 2 ways to flag, right and left (dunno which you meant, but still there are 2 ways already :p). If he adds some kind of ramp so you can even fast grab from front, it would be make up for a nice gameplay.
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After a hard day at work, I think someone needs a cup of tea
(http://i.imgur.com/QmiroPe.jpg)
New spcup map incoming today :) By JMR and Mission
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I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.
What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead? DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to your team. I think it makes matches incredibly stale.
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.
I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do you think?
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I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.
What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead? DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to your team. I think it makes matches incredibly stale.
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.
I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do you think?
We are not even sure yet that people will accept the new maps, if we did this I doubt anyone would play. It has become a crucial part of the game probably since the start- atleast as long as I have played, I really can't imagine it any other way. I know it has been talked about before though so we could trial it somehow. imo this league should be exactly what the masses want, just with new maps.
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I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.
What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead? DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to your team. I think it makes matches incredibly stale.
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.
I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do you think?
No. I'm guessing the league is in hopes of getting the matching community to be a bit more active by adding competitiveness.
If that's the goal, making ANY change is going to get some people to refuse to play. Maps where it's so easy to revive cap (like DP has MANY of) - or with SOO many paths, would become MORE stale. DP maps were made for recon purposes. People complained saying they'd quit over HR4 textures - something that makes the game visually better.
I don't think a game that has lasted over 10 years can be said to have stale gameplay. I don't think gameplay is the issue at all. The average person would find every game stale after 5+ years, it's just the average person doesn't sit in the same game for that length of time like they have in DP. It makes DP unique.
Do not change something that could cause people not to want to play when you'll already have a hard time getting enough teams as is.
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No. I'm guessing the league is in hopes of getting the matching community to be a bit more active by adding competitiveness.
If that's the goal, making ANY change is going to get some people to refuse to play. Maps where it's so easy to revive cap (like DP has MANY of) - or with SOO many paths, would become MORE stale. DP maps were made for recon purposes. People complained saying they'd quit over HR4 textures - something that makes the game visually better.
I don't think a game that has lasted over 10 years can be said to have stale gameplay. I don't think gameplay is the issue at all. The average person would find every game stale after 5+ years, it's just the average person doesn't sit in the same game for that length of time like they have in DP. It makes DP unique.
Do not change something that could cause people not to want to play when you'll already have a hard time getting enough teams as is.
Reconing=Wallhaxking. So I'd say disable this. ;)
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I understand that people don't like change.. But being able to constantly recon your enemies exact position just seems silly. I think disabling this might encourage less experienced players to participate in competitive games. Don't you want to actually have to think for yourself when you play? Instead of mindlessly listening to your teams perfect recon?
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If there was no recon how would we ever kill senix, greenz or starz. Camping would be more of an issue than it is now.
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I understand that people don't like change.. But being able to constantly recon your enemies exact position just seems silly. I think disabling this might encourage less experienced players to participate in competitive games. Don't you want to actually have to think for yourself when you play? Instead of mindlessly listening to your teams perfect recon?
True. Not sure why people have to recon. Does that make them a better player? Nope. A good player doesnt need reconning to figure out a player or where he's at, he wants more suspense. Reconning takes that factor out, if players know where the enemy team is or is heading, what fun is that? I believe some players need to try to play without recon, it will show them how good of a player they really are. Might as well have a server that has wallhacks. But, the sad part is, that some maps are heavily based on reconning. For example good 3v3+ maps are based on reconning. Imagine how many times people would be capped on, if no reconning was preformed. I mean, simple maps/old school maps were designed so reconning wasn't needed. Those were maps.
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Camping would be more of an issue than it is now.
This.
A good player doesnt need reconning to figure out a player or where he's at, he wants more suspense.
Suspense? Sure, you get to flag and you can guess where enemy will camp.
To make you sad: There is no way to prevent people from using recon right now. There probably already is a anti-black hack to make you see even if server wants you to be blacked out. If there isn't making one is as easy as hacking jitspoe anticheat or recompiling game. It's just too easy to make, I wonder why people seek working wallhacks when they can compile 'fixed' renderer themselves. Probably they can't afford Visual Studio, lawl. #WeNeedPAC
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Whether you guys like it or not camping/defending is a legitimate tactic.... And you have to remember it goes both ways... Defenders won't know exactly where the attackers are if this change is made. I think it could be argued that camping is more of a problem now because defenders have almost perfect information.
You can still give recon without being able to constantly see the enemy when you are dead. It would just be like in every other game where you tell your teammates where you died, where the person who killed you was, what potential direction they were heading.
The more I think about this the more I am convincing myself to make this change on at least a few of my match servers. It is just so absurd that you can always know the exact position of your enemies.
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I think that stopping recon can be good, to stop campers people would stop playing those types of maps, Getting rid of recon wouldn't be that bad, may slow the game pace down and make more people be cautions probably the games more tense and allow newer teams to be able to stand a chance, but do we really want to change this game to be like every other one, maps with 2 flags separated now like prolandr or castle1 are examples where you can have two teams and one could give perfect recon but still lose 50-0. Maybe settings don't need to change maps do.
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The more I think about this the more I am convincing myself to make this change on at least a few of my match servers. It is just so absurd that you can always know the exact position of your enemies.
It's absurd? What makes it absurd? Because OTHER games don't have it? That's hardly a reason to call it absurd. Most other games also wont have the same length of life that DP2 had. The games lasted this long, and has always had a form of a competitive scene during its years. The gameplay is not a problem. But, hypothetically if you do heres a negative side effect to your change:
What makes DP different to survive this long? As "sad" as it may sound, it's due to friendship bonds. People leave and come back for their friends more than the game itself. They enjoy playing with a specific group of people. Notice how when people left the game, they often left with their friends. Remove recon and you remove necessity for voice communication. In continuation, not going on voice communication lowers bonds created, and then you'll see less real bonds created. The majority of this game for the last 5 years has been people getting their friends back into the game to keep up the competition.
Not only is Recon a huge part of what makes DP2 unique, but it provides a benefit to how a small community is run. Small communities are run by everyone knowing eachother. Right now, every NA team sits on Prozak TS3 and can communicate with any other team. Don't change whats not broken.
Changing something because other games don't have it is not smart. Why copy other games that are ahead, instead of keeping the few unique things DP has. Recon being a majort part of DP. It's so fast pace that without recon the gameplay will be more stale as once someone grabs they'll just sit on flag - the more "confident" player will come out on top EVERY time. The person who grabs first is at a HUGE advantage. Forcing trades by hiding to win a game becomes unstoppable. DP works. Don't change it to copy other games gameplay wise, as it's lasted a long enough time to prove it's worth.
THAT BEING SAID, its your servers. Do what you'd like with them. It's just an idea that will cause Europeans to not match vs NA using your servers, as switching from 1 style to the other is dumb, and NA's will probably choose to go with Prozaks. Basically making it your server settings do not benefit the matching scene. Unless EVERY server did it as a test, it'd be counter productive.
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What makes DP different to survive this long? As "sad" as it may sound, it's due to friendship bonds. People leave and come back for their friends more than the game itself. They enjoy playing with a specific group of people. Notice how when people left the game, they often left with their friends. Remove recon and you remove necessity for voice communication. In continuation, not going on voice communication lowers bonds created, and then you'll see less real bonds created. The majority of this game for the last 5 years has been people getting their friends back into the game to keep up the competition.
Not only is Recon a huge part of what makes DP2 unique, but it provides a benefit to how a small community is run. Small communities are run by everyone knowing eachother. Right now, every NA team sits on Prozak TS3 and can communicate with any other team. Don't change whats not broken.
Changing something because other games don't have it is not smart. Why copy other games that are ahead, instead of keeping the few unique things DP has. Recon being a majort part of DP. It's so fast pace that without recon the gameplay will be more stale as once someone grabs they'll just sit on flag - the more "confident" player will come out on top EVERY time. The person who grabs first is at a HUGE advantage. Forcing trades by hiding to win a game becomes unstoppable. DP works. Don't change it to copy other games gameplay wise, as it's lasted a long enough time to prove it's worth.
THAT BEING SAID, its your servers. Do what you'd like with them. It's just an idea that will cause Europeans to not match vs NA using your servers, as switching from 1 style to the other is dumb, and NA's will probably choose to go with Prozaks. Basically making it your server settings do not benefit the matching scene. Unless EVERY server did it as a test, it'd be counter productive.
I don't think changing this would remove the necessity for voice communication. You still need to coordinate with your team while you are alive. You can still let your team know where you died, enemies last position, etc.. You could still spec your teammates.
I can't see how not being able to see your enemy during a match will have any effect on the community knowing eachother. You can still sit on TS3 and talk to whoever you want. Maybe you could even have some fun matches with both teams in the same channel if you didn't have to constantly recon the enemies position.
I don't want it to change just because other games have it, it just doesn't make sense to be able to constantly see your enemy (which is why other games don't allow it).
Why would the first person to grab just sit on the flag? Not sure I am following you there.. Wouldn't it be harder to trade if you don't know exactly where everyone is?
I disagree with your last point saying that changing this on one or two servers will be counter-productive. If a couple teams want to try it out they have the ability to do so. If they don't like it they never have to use that server again. If everyone is unwilling to try it then the servers will just sit there unused. I'm not trying to force this on everyone. I just think it would make matches more competitive and interesting.
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When people are entering the community they often do not want to get voice communication (although its getting more and more common to get it as gaming gets larger). A lot of new players who post on forums say "no mic, no ts3" - so without recon, the necessity is even less than already is, so it'd make it less likely people would be forced into getting it. DP has never been that big of a strategy and teamwork game, a good player can single handedly 1v3. I wouldn't bother using TS3 anymore for matches if this were the case, I much rather listen to music.
In regards to flag fights - I'll give an example. Score: 45-44, 1 vs 1, no recon, the team with 45 grabs first - he can go hide. If he's hiding, there's no way he can be reconned. Therefore, the person who grabbed second must sit around base, or on flag, and peek at spots, hoping that the flag carrier doesn't randomly run in from another point. It would be a huge risk for the person who grabbed second to make any sort of play. So now, revives happen, he's stuck on their flag, he gets revived, games over. WITH RECON, the same scenario can be overcome. With the speed of the game and amount of paths maps have, recon is essential. The game evolved into a game that revolved around recon. The maps are generally made for recon, as that's how they've always been played. Also, juking recon is an efficient strategy to outplay people. Recon servers as a big reason the game play is not stale.
Others don't allow it because they are different games with different communities, different play styles within the game, different history to the game. In comparing games, this is the last of the things that would come to mind as a reason they are successful. Games that are currently successful would be equally successful if they allowed you to recon your opponents. It's something that people get adjusted to, and doesn't actually negatively or positively affect the gameplay, it just makes it different. DP's maps are constructed in a way where recon is needed.
Sure, the servers will probably go unused, unless two NA teams want to try it out. But I don't see people liking it, for the simple reason that the average person hates big changes to something they previously liked. It can be seen with League of Legends as well, every new season people are complaining - but by mid season nobody even remembers what got changed. People don't like change, but if they like the game they can deal with any changes over time.
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I think that the only scenario where recon should be abolished is if matches ever had a short 5 second respawn delay- like a koth match where recon wouldn't really be needed (simple koth maps and 5 seconds is too quick to recon anyway). Everybody likes the standard 60s CTF and some people think speed servers ruined the game, so that wont happen.