Digital Paint Discussion Board
Digital Paint Community => Clans, Matches, and Tournaments => Digital Paint League => Topic started by: RoyalBlood on March 20, 2004, 08:40:37 PM
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I hope that got your attention. Ok now before we begin, go and tell other people who dont normally visit the forum to check this out. This will hopefullly be important and worthwhile to anyone who is even halfway serious about DP, matching, and starting a league.
And this will probably be pretty long, so just bear with me and read it all.
First I want to say that I do not want to run a league myself, nor do I think I would be best for it, mostly due to the fact that I only just started playing DP regularly again about a couple months ago and don't have the best view of the current state of matching. But I have noticed that there has been talk/desires/planning for a DP league lately. Since no one else has stepped up to discuss it yet, I decided to start.
Starting a DP league is a great idea. I think DP is perfect for a well designed league. The community is not too big, but there are a good ammount of regular players. For the most part everyone knows everyone else. A certain stability exists. BUT, the facts remain - DP has only had one half way decent league. Even simple tourneys have huge problems. So if we are going to even bother with another league, we had better make sure its worth the effort.
I have heard rumors that warwulf is making a league, something about a new DPL, fryth at least had a thought about designing a league, several DPers and myself have discussed league ideas about a league on IRC on various occasions recently, etc. So there is the possibility that multiple leagues are being designed at the moment. This is NOT good. If anyone is designing a league at the moment, please put it on hold and listen up. Its no good if there are 3 half assed leagues. Everyone needs to combine efforts together and make 1 DP league to rule them all.
I have absolutely no doubt we can do it. But it takes organization and commitment. We cant just say "oh yeah, a DP league? Thats cool, lets make an IRC channel and get started!" That just wont be good enough. Before anyone even starts thinking about a league, we need to think about setting up a forum based organization, choose a leader or moderator to oversee everything, form a committe to design the rules and standards to be used in the league, get volunteers to make a website, etc before we even think about the actual league.
I would recommend Jitspoe for moderator. I think thats fair and everyone would agree. In essence he already is like a moderator for the mod anyway. Plus it would be great to have official endorsement from Digital Paint for a DP league. Moderator really wouldnt have any more power than anyone else, its just so we have someone to basically oversee and moderate whats going on and make sure things are running smoothly, people are doing their jobs, etc.
The actual committee that will create the league should be made up of 1 member from every active clan out there and anyone who isnt in a clan but is an intregral part of the DP community (this can be up to Jitspoe's discression.) Some small just formed 2 member newbie clan should not be eligible for obvious reasons. Nor should any suspected fake clans that just formed 2 days ago just so that they can get in the committie (again obvious and if debatable should be up to Jitspoe, or whoever is leader's disgression) So the end result of this committee should lead to fair and accepted standards and rules that will be used to make the league.
These standards and rules the committee will discuss and ultimately agree on will consist of:
1) What is considered a legitimate clan or team and all rules and regulations that apply
2) Standard format for a match and all rules and regulations that apply
3) What maps are acceptable for matching according to the standards developed in #2
4) Various rules concerning potential problems that may arise during matches / conflict resolving
5) League format
Another point I want to cover is longevity. This organization should be well suited for scalabity and longevity. What I mean is that this same committe should still be around a year from now, although maybe with more or less or different specific members. 3 years from now it should still be around. The purpose of this is so that we can have not one, but MULTIPLE league seasons! After the season is over with, there is a short break and then another season with hopefully most of the same clans will start. Some clans will not be able to join again the following season, some new clans will probably want to join. So the committee can regularly discuss and debate the current state of the clanning community and league at all times and make neccessary changes or tweaks as it sees fit, thus continuing the life of the league. So this is another reason why its so important to spend time on organization prior to setting up the league.
So if you are still with me now, I hope you agree that this is the best thing for everyone. Will it be perfect? Probably not, but the chances that it will work and be more successfull than any other league are strong. So assuming everyone involved takes it serious, it will be as perfect as we can possibly make it.
So now what? Well like i said, before we all even start talking about league ideas, lets decide on a leader and committee and get a dedicated forum for those memebers of the committee started and THEN we can start working on the league.
The DP league to end ALL DP leagues!
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Well, i have played many games with leagues with clan members involved in decision making. This, was, and always will be, a horrible idea. A successful league needs to consist of non-favoring, non-biased people, who are not actually invovled in the matching. From my experience, leagues dont work very well with clan members decided on things when they are invovled in the actual league.
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Count me in.
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RB you have a ton of good ideas... I think it would be best for things to start off a little slower. An organized DPL would be a big shock to a lot of players, I mean when was that last semi-good DPL? Most of the players probably arnt even sure what in all is involved in joining the DPL. I would be more then willing to help with what ever the community decides to do.
I would also like to see some offical DPL servers. Maybe if clans were to have to enter a small fee (obviously the more clans the lower the fee) we could buy a colocation and set up some servers and host all of the DP files.
Love,
Vince aka acid
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In a nutshell, the point i was trying to get across wasnt about the league, though it is involved, it was about the organization needed prior to setting up any kind of structured league or ladder or whatever.
So in reply to acid, that IS what i was trying to get across. That we should start slow and just form a committee and form the standards that would be used in a league. Some people are already rushing to form a league, i'm telling them to slow down.
The server idea is a good one too, and one i thought about too. I figured if Jitspoe added an account feature ala HalfLife and did all his statistics things he was talking about, everyone should be asked to pay a small monthly fee. Some thing really small like a buck or two. That could generate enough money per month to afford a decent server from one of those game server hosting companies. Or if its enough money, you could afford a T1 and host your own server. But we can only wish =)
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In reply to Xile, I dont think thats the case at all. The problem isnt in letting clan members organize a league, its in HOW it is organized. Personally i think its BETTER for people who actually are involved to set up a league over somone else who is inpartial and most likely ignorant of the current matching/clanning experience. Example: Would you rather have a former computer software programmer as your C++ professor or someone who worked in retail his whole life? Chances are the former programmer would be a better fit to teach you how to program, cuz he has actually been there and done that.
I mean look at linux. That is a loosely organized community of like minded hackers and look at how much they have accomplished. We arent even asking for a percent of that. That proves right there that this can work. Its just we need a few of us to get it started the right way so everyone else can fall in line, thats all.
Yeah of course im sure a lot of leagues with this idea failed miserably, but it was for other reasons. The fact that each clan would be trying to influence their own ideas is the reason why its the best method. No one clan would be more represented than another, so the end result would be democratic. For every clan that would want this or that to happen, another clan would want the opposet, thus it balances out and ends up being the overall best and most fair solution. What happens when a non-involved, unbiased party makes a decision that most clans dont agree with? The only way something happens is with the support of a majority of the clans, so therefore the majority of the clans would agree with it. What you are saying is if only a part of the clanning community is involved. Im saying all legit clans are involved. I dont see how it can go any worse than any other method.
Sorry for this post, its all rambling and out of order. That happens sometimes =)
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[Off-topic: who else thinks jitspoe is *the* most fairest nicest normal person in the world?]
Let me rephrase that =)
If you had to pick one and only one DP'er that people would complain about the least, wouldnt it be Jits or Cal? And i only specified Jits over Cal because he seams more active lately. You gotta think about all the llamas out there. They at least have respect for Jits and Cal cuz they made the darn game.
That is unless someone can get Ferg back ;D
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Optional, but encouraged ;)
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Well, I'm hoping to get an automated matching system programmed in, which will be kind of complicated to set up, so it'll be a while, but the idea would be something like this:
Everyone who's matching must have an account (probably tied into the bboard accounts).
To create an clan, someone would come to me (or possibly someone else if there end up being more admins), and I will create a clan "group" type thing and flag that person's account as a clan leader. The clan leader would then be able to go through the member list and click some type of invite/recruit button. The invited members would then have the option accept or reject the invitation. The leader (more or less the admin of the clan's group) would be able to remove members, assign co-leaders, and whatever other options might be necessary.
Well, that's all account set up stuff. Now onto the match preparation. Ideally the clans would have scheduled a match time and picked out maps well ahead of time. The maps** will have to be picked out before the match starts. A leader from either clan will log onto a match or public/match*** server and type something like:
!match midnight castle1 hellsurvivors
The server will then set the match settings****, apply a password and report it to the leader, and put those 3 maps into rotation. Players can then join teams, but only if they are in that team's clan -- possibly force all clan members to join teams, but only spawn the ones that type "!ready," or something of that nature -- maybe just a mouse click, and have another command so players can swap, and have players automatically fill in when others disconnect. Things of that nature (this will all require a ton of testing).
The server records all the statistics and uploads them to the website after the match is completed, then automatically calculates the ranking of the clans (ranking would be determined according to the ranking of clans beaten/defeated, not just wins/losses). I'd also like to have some sort of sportsmanship rating for each clan (and individual players as well). Possibly tie this into the ranking system. If the clan you played did nothing but complain the whole time, you can give them a poor rating, but if they played fair and made the match enjoyable, give them a good rating.
There would also have to be a "!scrim" option that would act like a match, but not apply to the match statistics. Possibly allow non clan players to play as well.
Now, that would all be for generic matches. Where the DPL would come in would be to have seasons with set clans, set maps, etc. Something like football or other professional sports are done. Get every clan to match every other clan. The league sets all the parameters and has everything scheduled at least a week in advance so clans know who they're matching when and on what maps -- plenty of time to practice. A DPL official will be present at the matches to act as a ref and settle disputes. There would be a separate ranking system for the DPL. The DPL could have alternative settings to the generic match settings.
Well. That's a small tidbit of some of my ideas. ;D
** I'd really like for the match maps to be resonable -- no pbcup, blitz, or the like. Something for the committe to decide.
*** This code is partway done -- it will enable people to use an empty public server for matches, then un-password the server after the match is complete.
**** Settings like friendly fire need to be determined.
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I think this is all just great Jitspoe. I know its a lot of work, but dont get discouraged. I think you are heading in the right direction with this.
So when you going to make a private forum for the committee to form and start using to get these acceptable guidelines and standards things ironed out? ;)
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This will be a big turning point in the DP world... this is gonna be sweet
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I was talking to LordHavok (most known for his DarkPlaces engine project) today, and he was talking about his plans to make a game with statistcs logging and stuff, very similar to what I wanted to do, and he was planning to have the core game be free, with limited maps, then have an extended map pack for like $20. Then there would be different types of accounts, free ones and then premium ones (which would cost like $20 or so). Server admins could set up premium only servers to reduce the llamas, because you know people are serious about the game if they're willing to pay for a premium account. Also there would be tournaments with prizes and stuff. I think it would be cool to one day build the paintball community up to that level. It would be nice to be able to work on paintball full time. :)
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That sounds pretty killer, but don't you think it would decrease the size of the community?
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I have one concern though. Everyone is motivated and excited now, and that is great. But a lot of people still seam to be wanting to rush into a league or are working independent of everyone else. For example, Jitspoe is working on this great account feature that will tie into a clan-mode for matching and a league. But Warwulf is also doing some kind of account system on IRC for matching/league. So why would a community this small need 2 seperate things to sign up for and manage? I think the both of you should work together a bit on this, see if you can tie each others ideas together somehow. Jitspoe works on an in-game and website account system that also works with whatever stuff Warwulf is doing on IRC, so everyone only has to sign up for one thing.
Also we need to start getting this organization thing done. Im going to start another topic to "hopefullly" get this started. So check that one out.
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RoyalBlood saving DP again!
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Belmont: Actually I think it would increase it. Having funds would mean I could advertise comercially, and people wouldn't be required to pay -- only if they wanted access to premium servers and/or additional maps.
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Um...no. everyone should be allowed the same servers, same maps, everything. anyway, if you wre stupid enough to get "premium servers" no one else would be on them...wheres you money now?
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Good point jitspoe. eiii what are you talking about...? Its almost like a mini 'chain-reaction' theory. Once money starts to come in, jitspoe can (like he said) advertise Paintball II comercially, i.e on major gaming websites. Thus, increasing the volume of the community.
Jits, I was thinking more along the lines of.. if we were to make DP cost worthy, wouldn't it take a little while to get going.. I mean, I know it would.. but before the whole plan caves in on us.
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what i was saying is...not a lot of ppl are going to pay for this game. it's just a multiplayer Q2 mod. (anyway, i don't think ID would be too happy about us selling a game that's 20% theirs) So, the few ppl that are stupid enough to pay will get---PREMIUM SERVERS!!! But they'll all be (almost) empty. a waste of money. ho hum.
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Some people would prefer to play the game without the llamas and newbies.
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/me raises hand
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no--im saying that if theres's no one on the premium servers, what's the point of having premium??
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I already will guarentee I will buy the game once that happens. As it is I mean to donate something towards it, but instead I chose to contribute towards the game/community since I dont have a lot of money yet.
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jistpoe, are you thinking about making the payment monthly? annually? or once you pay, your good forever.
eiii, I play in matches about 5x more than I do public. It would be nice if this actually happened.
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There are no plans for charging anything yet -- these are just ideas. The idea LordHavok had would be to have yearly releases -- like unreal tournament is doing -- and have the game be free, but extended map packs you can buy. Premium membership would probably be a one-time thing.
Well, I'm not gonna worry about that now. Gotta get everything else rolling first.
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Yeah, it was just a thought
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YOU GOT MY VOTE :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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So, hows this thing coming along? the comittee and all... looks pretty idle.
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Hmm yeah, reminds of this DPMA thing some guy started and abandonded a while back :P
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Everyone harassed me to make a new forum for this, so I did, then it died. :)
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It didnt die, but everyones interest in it did, which is exactly what i was trying to avoid in the first place by having it only made up of active clans, and then only one representative from them. This is what the committee would be if we let everyone in it that things they should be in it. Half of them would be idle.
Anyway, we asked for a private committee forum, not a league forum ;) As far as I can tell, there are only 3 clans out there that could even participate in a real league, so we are far from that.
As far as the committee and eventual league, right now i think its just going to be made up of like Oddjob, DirtyTaco, Acid, Fourthx and myself. Something like that. Those are the only people who really have expressed any interest AND, and this is the important part, have proven to be more than just words and have actually done serious work in helping the community get to a point where we could have a league.
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Maybe if you took some actions torwards it, instead of just talking about it. nobody will be interested until it is actually ready to go, not too many people care about the fundementals, they just want to play.
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Thats the point. I cant do it all by myself. And I dont think anyone else can either and make a decent league (look at previous attempts for examples) So I was attempting to involve everyone by representation of each clan, but obviously half of them just arent cut out for it. So just the people and clans that have shown interest in actually working for it, not just interest in it, are going to help us. Its going on, just like I said with my VERY first post, a league aint going to happen for a while. The purpose was a standards committee, not a league. If anyone wants to help, just start matching better like DOM, Smurf, and Prozak are trying to set an example for. An official committee and eventual league are still in the works, it just looks like its going to be a DOM, Smurf, and Prozak, cuz we are the only ones who seem to actually want it.
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I start one if you guys will let me
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There is a league going atm.