Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: jitspoe on April 15, 2004, 03:53:13 AM
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Since several people have different opinions on whether or not grenades should explode on impact, I have a couple propositions:
a) Have two different types of grenades. One explodes on impact, the other is timed.
b) Continue to have one type of grenade, but two different tossing modes, like "tossgren timed."
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I think that it is better gameplay for grenades not to explode on impact. But, as I'm sure Jit knows, the Tippmann paint grenade that the paint grenades were obviously modeled after explode on imact. So if you're going for realism...
http://store.yahoo.com/shire/tippaingren.html
Squadbuster grenade contains non-toxic paint that is held under pressure by a heat crimp in the tubes. When the grenade hits the ground the crimps break and a huge amount of paint is sprayed everywhere.
But, is this game really realistic? No. Is it wierd to answer your own questions? Yes. But anyway, I like the current system of making it a server variable. Personaly I like timed.
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The impact grens are too easy to use, if you angle them up slightly to a wall it creates a tube of death like 30 ft long.
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well, if you put it in so that you need to time it. IE you need push say the f key to prime it, time goes 1....2....3...(etc.) then the f key again to toss it (at any time during th count down), that could make using the grenades a bit more challenging to use, and on top of this you could maybe change the size of explosion????. I mean i can see fourthX's point, you can get a good spread by doing this. im not sure, maybe i just dont like being able to instantly toss them, just IMO. But putting a primer on them and using the non instant grenade explosion might make them...not as deadly???? IDK, im confusing my self now =P
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Its not about which is more realistic or not, or which is easier to use or not, its about which makes gameplay more balanced and fun to play on a public server and competitive in a match.
So if you think about it that way, its obvious the impact grenades are the better choice. I understand what people say about just being able to throw a grenade against he wall and take out 4 people without needing to aim... but you gotta understand that that only happens if you are playing a super poor small map or the players suck and all jumble together, so thats not even a serious issue.
Whereas non-impact grendes can be just luck. Someone can just pick up a grenade, randomly toss it in the general area of the other team, and then run and pick up another grenade and randomly toss it in the general area of the other team again. Someone from the other team could turn a corner and then get hit by a random grenade. Theres absolutely no skill or strategy at all in that. So what happens is you get grenade tossing spray, so to speak.
Maybe if you could prime it before tossing it or something. The longer you hold the grenade before tossing it, the longer it will last before exploding. Otherwise you could just toss it righta way and it will explode on impact.
Or you could just make them however it was during the beta days, cuz then not as many people will complain.... Most people cant handle innovation ;)
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I think you guys are missing the point of this post. I'm not trying to revive the impact vs. timed argument, but rather offer a compromise.
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I like the idea of charging up the grenade, the way most games do it. The longer you hold the button, the faster it'll detonate, but also the greater the chance it'll go off in your hand. Adds a bit of skill while giving both timed and instant grenades a place in the game.
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your right, i totally missed the point, i suck =), none the less, i Think option B would be my choice in that case being that is kinda what i was getting at in my last post, with the timer etc.
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my choice is B but i would also add that the longer you hold the gren the farther it will go (limit on how far) and the longer it will take to explode (limit that too) so say reg grens (impact) goes 10 feet (sake of agument) but if you hold the gren for 10 secs (lets say thats the max before it goes off in your hand) if will go 15 feet (crosshairs in the same place as the first gren) and will take say 5 secs before it blows.
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Actually, that's kind of backwards. The longer you prime a grenade, the sooner it explodes. That and about 3 rounds will go by in 10 seconds. ;)
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depends on the map pbcub yes brainstorm no
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I like the grens we have now.. But B sounds like an ok option to have.
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Well, the thing is, different server admins use different settings for the grens. I'd like to find a way to compromise and be consistent.
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Ok, I missed the point too. I understand what you're getting at now. I prefer option B. Just to be clear. "tossgren timed" and "tossgren explode" would be seperate commands. Players could set up binds for each and use them in seperate intances? Even though most people, including myself, would just replace the "tossgren" bind with which ever they prefer.
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ahh.. nice, that sounds really cool, letting us choose =]
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Ok, I'll make it so "tossgren impact" makes the grenade explode on impact, "tossgren timed" is timed (like the old grenades), and "tossgren" uses whatever the server setting is. That's a lot easier than making a new type of grenade. :)
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So if you think about it that way, its obvious the impact grenades are the better choice.
It's not obvious at all, actually. Either grenade style "can be just luck." However you CAN use bouncable grenades strategically, where as the primariy use of an impact grenade is to eliminate something within perimeter and throwable proximity (why not just.. shoot them? Ah, I know why..). I agree with the fact that if large, open maps dominated the public and match scence, then the effectiveness of impact grenades would be sufficiently muted. "Obviously" though, this isn't the case.
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Well Blitz, I think the game is alot more fun with them in the game. I loved the er33t servers.. but you shoulda put grens on! You guys didnt even add the bouncable ones if I remeber correctly..
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The bounceable ones were out for a period of time because of a "bug" created by the developers which made ALL grenades essentially explode on impact.
I'm really liking the priming scheme Fryth has mentioned. Here's how I would implement it:
- Hold 'tossgren' to prime the grenade. While holding 'tossgren' the player can not fire shots(reducing defensive spray+grenade spam). OR A simple keypress launches a 3(or whatever) second timed grenade.
- Timing for the grenade decreases proportionally to the time to hold 'tossgren'.
- After 3(or whatever) seconds of priming the grenade becomes explode on impact style.
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no, sometimes you need nades at the press of a button...not after 3 seconds. i like fryth's way too, but impact nades are really helpful.
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Yea, they're too helpful. If you need it at 'the press of a button' then shooting should be sufficient...
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well, if there are a lot of people, or someone's on the other side of a wall...you might need a grenade fast.
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Not if your Blitz!
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PLEASE don't put in two types of grenade fire; that's silly. There are enough binds already; you don't need two different grenade buttons to worry about.
Instant grenades are cheap and random. Priming adds strategy! C'mon... I'm surprised more people don't see it this way...
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" Instant grenades are cheap and random." How are they random if they explode instantly?? You aim, you fire, they die. Random is throwing it over the barrels on PBcup, waiting a couple of seconds and relizing no one was actuly there.
How does priming add strategy? People keep saying it does, but I havent seen anyone say WHY it adds this strategy. IN WHAT WAY IS STRATEGY ADDED? Other then the fact no one will want to use grens anymore because you cant even fire for three seconds. How big of a pain in the ass is it to refill your co2 for 4 seconds?? Alot happens in that ammount of time, especialy on smaller maps.
TWO MORE BINDS?!?! OMG! Actuly no, youll like one style more then the other and probaly only use one of them. I enjoy both though, so I dont mind the extra two binds.
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Let me add one more then, if you people really want strategy, why dont you turn on FFire?? Hmm =]?
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You still think timed grenades are random? Let's compare the two grenade types: Let's say I rush in Arctic and toss a grenade over the barrels.
INSTANT: Boom, everyone advancing on you is dead. They had no warning. Nothing. They just die, out of the blue, dead.
TIMED: They at least have the chance to see the grenade flying through the air, bouncing on the wall, and failing that, sticking out of the ground. Yeah, everyone might miss it and just suddenly die, but surely, this scenario is better than the instant one.
Instant grenades are ALWAYS cheap. Timed ones are only sometimes cheap.
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BUT.. what about the grenades we have now?? Whats wrong with those, they are certainly not instant UNLESS you hit someone with it. Why do you want to replace that type with your idea? Its basicaly the same thing, only now you dont want to allow me to use my gun anymore.
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Well, if you time it right, you can make the primed grens go off in mid-air. That's cool.
The not-using-your-gun thing isn't really a major issue for me.
btw, jits, consider the debate revived :)
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well, if there are a lot of people, or someone's on the other side of a wall...you might need a grenade fast.
I would imagine that it's quite difficult to get an explode-on-impact grenade *around* a wall. If there's "a lot of people" around you, then you should have to deal with the obvious disadvantage (and not pummel a grenade at your feet, killing anyone within proximity.. ;))
On a related note, I also favor Fryth's 'priming' scheme. By holding the key down, you could effectively prime an explode-on-impact grenade. Also, this would present a new strategic value, whereas the player is able to partially-prime a grenade creating a more potent version of the current fixed-time grenades. The time needed to prime an instant-impact grenade would (hopefully) harness their overly-powerful attributes.
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Thats because you dont use your gun when you have it <G>. Granted having a gren go off in mid air is a neat idea, I had not thought of that. And I would agree to this option IF I could throw the grenade at any point in time. I dont want to HAVE to hold it for the full three seconds unless I want to.
Ok another Added note, sorry Jit.. You reading all these? =]
What if I decided to hold it until it exploded?? Would that cause death to anyone around me?? Suicide bombing people would be fun.. Id like to say doing that would cause me to die as well, therefore when doing that you take your chances. And if you die before it goes off.. well it still goes off?? I mean it is a live grenade after all. You dieing doesnt stop it.
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Ok this may not or may be in the same line as what you guys are talking about ... but i always liked to see it be random? let the comp decide the time wether it be instant or up to like 10 secs.....
??? just an idea
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You still think timed grenades are random? Let's compare the two grenade types: Let's say I rush in Arctic and toss a grenade over the barrels...
Your logic is flawed in using Arctic as an example. ;)
Here's my stance on grenades. They're GRENADES. They're designed for taking out LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE. That's why you can only hold ONE. Timed grenades are so ineffective that they only eliminate maybe 1 person for every 10 grenades thrown, and half the time those are direct hits. If you want direct hits, you can just shoot people -- considerably more effective!
If the Quake2 physics weren't so fast, they'd be pretty effective, but the way it is now, the only way to get hit by a grenade is to either stand around in one spot for a long time, be completely oblivious to an incoming grenade, and/or run into an area where a grenade is already sitting. These seem more like lack of skill or bad luck on the part of the opponent than skill on the part of the thrower.
I think calling impact grenades cheap is like calling the paintball markers cheap because it only takes 1 shot to kill someone. If someone throws a grenade at your feet and he's standing right in front of you, it's your own fault for not shooting him first! I mean, he's standing right in front of you; it only takes one shot!
So the way I see it:
Impact grenades: Powerful weapon for taking out groups of opposing forces.
Timed grenades: mostly useless; depend entirely on luck.
I also think grenade ffire should always be on -- people won't throw grenades at their feet if they keep eliminating themselves. :)
Another thing to think about: newbies. I think a lot of people dislike impact grenades because they don't like being eliminated by newbies. I'd like for this community to grow, and the only way to do that is through more newbies. If it's impossible for them to get any kills, they probably won't want to keep playing.
On the subject of priming grenades, my idea is like this:
+tossgren starts the priming
-tossgren throws the grenade.
So you'd do something like, "bind g +tossgren" and pressing G would start the prime, releasing it throws it.
Another possibility would be to make it so you have to switch to the grenade to use it -- like the hand grenades in Quake2. I think impact grenades would be more justified then, since you couldn't just throw them at the ground in the middle of a fire fight.
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i think reg grens (impact) are great right now but there should only be 2-3 per map per side. i also like the priming part of the gren. it should be the longer you hold a gren the fast it will explode so holding it for 3 secs makes it blow on impact put just throwing it when you see a guy hoping to kill him it will be delayed.
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gah, back to my first statement. if you delay a grenade, it'll be just sheer luck. toss it over a wall where everyone is. in 3 seconds they won't be there. in 2 seconds they won't be there. by the time you've primed it for 1 second, they won't be there. what i'm saying is, it accually takes some skill to take out 3 people with a grenade. i like the current grenades, but the current timed ones are nice too, to set a short trap when people are 2 sec away.
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whats good about timed ones are to throw the gren and when the ants go running away to hide from the paint you jump out and get in enemy base when they are all hiding for that all improtant flag grab then kill them all in the back :D
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THAT GREN WAS COOL I WANT ONE :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(l
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okay, this guy's getting on my nerves. someone give him...a warning or something. jits?
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yea i told him not to use that glow on all his post.
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SQUADBUSTER IS THE BEST
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eiii: He's just like you when you first stated posting. :)
ASDA: Please try to contribute to the conversations rather than throwing out random outbursts. Also, turn off caps lock. Thanks.
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i think everyone new to using forums are like that. thankfully i was on a forum were peeps were really bi*chy so i toned down alot not wanting to piss them off.
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jit: i didn't use red glow and all caps when posting. ;D
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Jits completely owned this debate. I dont have anything to add other than agree with everything he said. Randomly tossing timed grenades and hoping to catch someone coming around the corner == pure luck. I honestly dont see how anyone could argue differently. The only skill involved would be to bounce it to a specific location, but its still luck that someone is actually there or not.
I would prefer just having instant grenades over having both types.
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There is certainly more satisfaction gained from getting a direct hit with a timed grenade, though. :) Like that time we were playing 2fort5 and someone was running in for the cap.... launched a grenade from the ground, and sploosh! Direct hit as he came running through the door! Insanely lucky, of course, but it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Until his teammate grabbed the flag and made the cap, grr!
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Heh or tossing a timed gren into the spawn room, on your way out with the flag :)
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Bah, that's annoying.
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yea i have to say that is the most annoying thing.