Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => General Development => Topic started by: jitspoe on April 20, 2005, 11:44:04 PM
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I'm planning on implementing a new model format for Paintball2. I've convinced myself that SKM is the way to go for now. It's a skeletal model format which will allow us to do some nice skeletal animation on the players, meaning:
- no wobbly verts.
- blended animations (top half could be firing, bottom running).
- Tagged bones will allow us to place different weapons in players hands and other similar things.
- Higher polygon counts without having a lot of memory use for the animations (of course we'll use LOD's so low end systems won't crap themselves).
- Potential to do silly things like ragdoll physics. :)
For more information about SKM, you can view the sourceforge.net projects page for qfusion: http://sourceforge.net/projects/l33t
Also, a few threads on quakesrc.org have some information about it:
http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4731&highlight=skm
http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4916&highlight=skm
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Perhaps you should have the models separated into parts that can be animated separatly. For example, the lower body for moving/crouching, and an upper body with multiple positions for different guns. However, since many of the guns are the same, you might need one for a group of similar guns.
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The whole point of skeletal animation is that you DON'T have to have segmented models (what Quake3 has).
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Does that mean you can animate different bones separatly at the same time? I though it was just a way to displace many verticies at a time.
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Leaning and prone positions
Most players that i have got to play DP voiced you their displeasure about not being able to lean or go prone.
Again I dont know much about what you doing just what would be needed to take this game to new levels of fun
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So what do u want?
A q2 instagig hyperblaster game with nothing but the faster jumping/reflex team to win all maps?
My apology for the above comment first, but tis true.
You (tacosmell)and others have complained in the past about spray/pray warfare and your disdain about such strategy and maps .
Now as one of the top rank(ing) complainers (about spray and pray) your offering a complaint and not a solution. I expect more from you than that.
I am offering an alternative by introducing a not so new and needed concept to jitspoe's beautiful game, its called teamwork.
My second apology for the previous comment.
Lastly I don't profess to know everything, but I know what fun is and what other people have voiced besides some "leet cheats" thats u er33t bob/smoke/princess :) ( j/k ).
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We don't need leaning at all. It, if ANYTHING, allows for more spray. Except, you're almost invunerable to other shots. Strategy? Not any more than camping in a spot and spraying.
Prone... no. Too slow. LIke DT said, this is a fast paced game, and prone is too slow a movement method. Anyway, it gives you NO advantage. You're lower. People have a little harder time seeing you. What could that be used for? SPRAYING! Again.
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While it would be possible to implement leaning with the new model format, the hit boxes are the real issue. They can only be axis-aligned rectangles. If somebody leans out, I could expand the hit box, but... what's the point of leaning then? You might as well step fully out from behind a bunker.
Prone would be difficult to pull off well, because of things like jumping on top of narrow bunkers -- could you imagine somebody going prone on one of those? Heh, that would look really weird.
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just a suggestion :)
prone makes your criticasl harder to hit eeeei, but since this is one shot ur out ...
"what's the point of leaning then? You might as well step fully out from behind a bunker."
assuming someone is shooting at you at that point. Unitil that happens its a great camper tool
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Ok a lean would basically equal stepping out becasue of the whole hitbox issue, but what lean would offer is a momentary action (lean out while button held, snap back on release). So instead of stepping out and back really fast to imitate a "snap shoot" meneuver to could press lean, fire, release to do a "snap shooting" meneuver (much easier i think). Maybe a "strafe_spring" setting that would do this action with your strafe keys when toggled. Maybe a default snap distance with a min and max so people could adjust it to thier desired feel.
If the above was implimented I wouldn't even bother with a lean position or animation on the character.
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Thank you s8n for making my point for me I am terribly inarticulate. Btw were your suggestion....
If the above was implemented I wouldn't even bother with a lean position or animation on the character
Which above suggestion were you referring to?
Like a lean left / lean right binds, the first lean key you strike would lean you in the desired direction then release the lean key to toggle back to strait.
Btw what is the difference between crouching and what s8n suggested jitspoe? Other than one is crouching and one is leaning. :)
Ironfist knows a good idea when he sees it.
*edit dang I forgot to ask does crouching involve animation?
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Er, what do you mean? One is leaning and one is crouching... should something else be different?
And yes, crouching involves animation. How else would you make the player appear crouched? :)
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Sorry my fault.
What I mean is there should be no reason why lean can not be implimented :)
The crouch is allowed so why not lean?
How else would you make the player appear crouched?
I asked this because of s8n statement. My fear is if there is no animation involved how the would you see the Model lean or crouch?
Thanks Bud
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you wouldn't need a "lean" animation...to the other player he/she would see the whole player shift the predetermined units in the direction they pressed. Upon releasing the "lean" key the character would "shift" back the predetermined units.
It would be such a small shift that it would not look to wierd i don't think.
Yes, there would be a LEFT & RIGHT momentary lean key
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That wouldn't waste bandwidth as all the wait commands are done client side. Only problem is, I don't think you can fire while it's waiting.
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Thanks for the attention in this matter.
It would and does enhance game plame.
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yeah...I also think it would be a nice feature. Easily implimented too...err....maybe.
I'm thinking that normal movement existing in unison with this feature could be a little tricky (I don't know the code so I can only imagine. Leaning would have to be independant of all normal movement or else you could develope some pretty interesting bugs.
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(http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/skm_blob.jpg)
I, uh, still have a bit of work to do.
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BUT...you got it to compile AND got a model in the game.
Nice crumpled up newspaper model, btw!!!
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If only that's what it was supposed to be! :)
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Uh-oh. What was it supposed to be?
A cube?
Well, at least there wern't any errors...
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It's supposed to be the grunt model, heh.
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Well, then you're screwed.
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(http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/skm_notblob.jpg)
Now that's more like it!
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Yay!
So, it'll animate now?
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Got the lighting worked out now. It was tricky to get it to resemble quake2's hacky model lighting, but I think it's pretty close:
(http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/skm_lit1.jpg)
(http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/skm_lit2.jpg)
(the view weapon is md2 and the grunt is skm)
Next comes culling and texturing. Then optimization... I wonder how this format will comepare speedwise to md2.
And yes, it animates.
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Wait...
The guns are already converted?
Why can't we just use the old player model, then?
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Huh? The guns are in the crappy old md2 format. I was simply demonstrating how close I was able to get the lighting to the original md2 model lighting.
(the view weapon is md2 and the grunt is skm)
We can't use the old player model because it's crappy, low-poly, and doesn't fit the bounding box. The new one will be much better. :)
And just for clarification, the grunt model is NOT going to be used for anything. It was just a sample model in the skm format. The new player model will actually look like a paintball player.
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(http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/skm_silly.jpg)
Hehehe... when I try using the skm in place of the player model, these are the frames it uses -- looks like people are flying around with their arms outstretched. Also, look where the weapon is. It bobs up and down. So wrong, but so funny.
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Need... vid!
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hey guys, i thought i might add some info supporting SKM, in my opinion, that is.
I really like the idea about being able to see what gun other players have equiped. To me, that would be a help. Just another factor to know about your enemy. I also really like the rag doll physics capabillity.
One thing that would be ultimately kick-ass would be the option of laying down... and crawling... that would REALLY add to the aspect of a paintball game. It also implements another factor of how real pball is played.
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Cough (developers).......thank you nXe I 100% agree with you. Which is unfortunately will get you completely ignored by some and hated by others :)
That was utterly shot down, sadly they...err jitspoe believes it would be to realistic (whatever) and some other poor excuse of looking weird. BOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Also what status is of leaning? Yes No
If your going to put allot of time, money and effort into revamping why not do what most FPS do and implement the most common of Model Formats.
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Crawling would be pretty much useless, except for another way to make it easier to camp.
* Loial21 is pro-camper.
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haha... you female doges...
crawling just adds to the aspect of real paintball... omg... so what...
plus, it would enable mappers to take advantage of another style of bunker design or whatnot... ;)
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Pft, it's hard to get mappers to take advantage of anything beyond a box and autococker spawns.
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jits: I was sort of referring to 'good' mappers... like... they could position smaller bunkers and whatnot near or in higher positions... I can't describe it.
It's wierd because this is like paintball meets Quake... The more you steer Digital Paint towards realistics paintball gameplay, the more it takes away from oldschool DP. There will be no more rushing... there will be soooo much more strategy to certain maps. There are so many possibliities and results from turning Digital Paint into realistic paintball, but it would totally revamp current gameplay.
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Yeah so what kind of game do you want Jitspoe. :)
Where I come from calling someone a "camper" is fighting words. >:(
Me pro-camper? or camping pro? I coined the phrase "Rush or Die" I perfer the run and gun games like q2 wod or rail wars but I can hang with the best of them when it comes to camping.
Who has the "all time flag captures" in dp hard to say but its either Me, Mut or Voodoo@large...? Why would that be, how did we gain this status hmmm by not FREAKING-CAMPING maybe who knows.
Now leave me alone before you give me STD's. :)
To clear up the learning questions jitspoe? It should only made available when to a person is stationary.
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Well, here's the ultimate plan: two distinct gameplay styles: realistic and arcade. Arcade would be what we have now where you jump around at 70mph and do insane jumps. Realistic would be more like the half-life mod, where you move slowly and can lean and whatnot. In fact, I might even see if we can join forces to make a top notch standalone game.
Before we can do a realistic mode, however, the core engine needs a LOT of work. So, in short, "Maybe some day, but not today."
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Do you perfer to have mods or one combined game?
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It would be one game with settings and/or maps which will specify realistic or arcade mode.
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kewl
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lioal... to be honest, I love how you set yourself on a platform in terms of DP skills... quite amusing... heh...
but yea jits I was going to point out the HL mod -- in fact, i wasn't even sure that I wanted to post my last post in fear of getting flamed for whatever reason....
back at lioal again: I think we both agree on gameplay... so please don't let ego get involved... i don't want to start a complaining fest with you -- but man oh man do i want to -- so bad... we all know who pwns here... ;)
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Egowhip :)
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Well, here's the ultimate plan: two distinct gameplay styles: realistic and arcade. Arcade would be what we have now where you jump around at 70mph and do insane jumps. Realistic would be more like the half-life mod, where you move slowly and can lean and whatnot. In fact, I might even see if we can join forces to make a top notch standalone game.
Before we can do a realistic mode, however, the core engine needs a LOT of work. So, in short, "Maybe some day, but not today."
How bout "FREAKING NEVER!!!". I'm not as opposed to this as I sound, but if I wanted realistic, i'd play the half-life mod. And, what happened to not splitting the community?
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The objective there would be not to split the community, but to bring in a new community. We'd have the current people who like the arcade style, then we could bring in a bunch of new people who like something a little slower paced.
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jits: i don't think mixing the two games is that smart... maybe... like... the development and community would be one... but I bet the majority would favor one flavor of the game (arcade or realistic) over the other... and if you combine the two into one game... that would be just... doesn't seem to flow... maybe... 2 separate installs...
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It wouldn't really be any different than mods for a single game that completely change the gameplay. Like urban terror for Quake3 -- they're both Quake3, yet... very different. From a development perspective it'd just be easier to keep them both combined because 99% of the stuff will be the same; it's just the player movement that would be different.
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Do you perfer to have mods or one combined game?
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From a development perspective it'd just be easier to keep them both combined because 99% of the stuff will be the same; it's just the player movement that would be different.
true. the physics and general movement would be different. I don't see why maps or textures or models or anything should be different. yea. i agree with that statement.
Do you perfer to have mods or one combined game?
IMO -- one combined game.