My views on Camping and "Skilled playing"

[Ranger]

Hello, I wanna say a few things about a certain types of playing styles, what is usually considered as good/bad and I would like to offer a new perspective of looking at a certain things. After 10 years of knowing PB I have got some insights... You may also share your views.

Many times happens that when is somebody shooted to his back, eliminated player immidiatelly starts verball attack on his opponent: Camper! ... as if it mean he has no skills...  Now think - How skillfull reaction is to label somebody as a "Camper"? ... It is not skillfull reaction at all, your ego feels humiliated and threatened... Skillfull reaction would be: Ok, next time I have to pay better attention to my surroundings (without blaming anyone), because it was your fault, your amateurism that you died. You cant expect others to drop guns and turn back to you and let you to get easy kills... Remember: camping isnt about "who is better", but about "defending my interests" and always will be part of the game.

I would like also to talk about what players usually percieve as a skillfulness. And it is not what people usually think... Many will disagree with me, but skillfulness has nothing to do with the ability of aiming and shooting because it always depends on your connection (as every on-line game), that is a thing on which player has "no credit" and something I am after my PB "career" 100%  sure about...  That can be relief for "not so good players", because if you guys always wondered how the "best players" always did their amazing shots, its only because their connection was better than yours. Simple. You can recognize it when you see that your enemy has no problem with hitting you immidiatelly. You just must not judge players according to their ping, because it never tells the whole truth. But does that mean that everyone who is better in the game has only better connection than me? That would be comfortable excuse... It may be the case that he is truly better than you or me, but the quality of connection always plays a bigger role than most players are willing to admit, because they dont have comparison...

And a last small advice: Do not derive your player value from your numbers on the score board, because it doesnt says if you are playing good or bad. You still can have very negative score and have a nice feeling that you played well.

[JeongWa]

Few things that i do not agree with:

its only because their connection was better than yours. Simple.

I do not agree with that at all.
Yes having a low ping will improve your reaction time or atleast, not giving you a delay between the place you shooting at and the bullets coming from your gun, which isnt negligable if the gap between you and your opponent is close in term of skill and yes it gives an advantage to be able to aim properly and giving the good curve for the bullets. But the game do not rely on the aiming part only.

You can recognize it when you see that your enemy has no problem with hitting you immidiatelly.

It's not only that, where is the mindgame ? If he is able to hit you immediatly it's because he prediceted you to be there or knew you were coming there.
There is multiples way to bypass lines on this game, either by being fast, jumping over, creeping under, it's up to you to read the pattern of the enemy line.

Many will disagree with me, but skillfulness has nothing to do with the ability of aiming and shooting because it always depends on your connection

You are wrong imo. Without being rude.

Alot of players with 150 ping aim and shoot better than players with a low ping, Because they predict and start to shoot a place and even aim as if it was normal but few seconds before they would normaly do because they are aware of their high ping. It will look normal on a spectator view, but on their computer, they just shoot on the air, instead of shooting opponents directly.

But yes, connections impact the way you will play a game, but i know and do not believe that the best players are good because they got a good connection but because they read you and predict you easily so it's not even hard to aim because they are already aiming at the position they thoughts you would be at and the position you will go afterwards.

Ping is something, it has an impact for sure, but by being smart you can reduce the impact it has by alot.

We all got our experiences on this game, and this is mine.
I've spent alot of time playing on the matching scene, and from that i can tell that the best players are better, because they did understood the game more than the other and not because they had a better connection.

About the " camping " thing, here is how i see it.

Camping when well done is the counter strategy of rushing.
Simply because it is really hard to be safe/cautious and Rushing at the same time. If a rusher is comming, you are most likely the one who will spot him first because you are the one camping and barely not moving to be able to hear who ever decided to rush.
The best way to counter it in my opinion, is by slowering your gameplay slowering your progress and pre-aiming or pre-shooting places.
There are different playstyles, and calling one bad, or judging someone to be bad because you are predictable make no sense at all. If you keep rushing even while knowing that he was camping since some times ? Then the only person to blame is yourself and not him. You knew that he was camping, which in fact give you an information on how he plays.

In anyways, who ever insult or call people bad because they lost to someone is just the best way of discrediting themselves.
And i don't think they actually even try to understand the game,
So i just give those players no credit on their thoughts/sentences
and know that it's the easiest way for them to find an answer on why did they lost instead of really figuring it.

Playing against people who does camp, does slow the game and forces you to change of playstyle if you actually want to win, which can be boring and thats understandable, but you can't blame or insult opponents for it.

[Ranger]

Hmm, yes... I didnt want to say there arent any other values which makes you good (predicting is one of them...)

I was concentrating predominantly on refuting the main myth. And there I stand on my point that aiming has nothing to do with "skill" (Boyka also strongly doesnt agree, but does not have forum account to dispute here). You can predict as much as you can, but very often happens (due to not so good connection) that your enemy very easy get through your lines and your ability to predict looses its shine and suddenly means nothing :-) And its not because he would be extremely fast or was crouching or something...

Yes... I dont say that the best players are best only because of their connection. I would hate if some newbie told me on pub that Im better only because I have got better connection than him... Thats nonsense. Im only saying that the impossible "wow" shots are possible because of very good current connection of a certain player. My ballspeed is sometimes very good with ping 60-70, noone gets through my line and survive.. and sometimes is my ballspeed very bad with ping 20-30 and many can get through my line, thats why I said that "ping number" never tells the whole truth.


And I have to add also a few new words about camping: The hidden benefit/hidden tactic which it brings... Because if our opponent get used to that we might hide behind every corner, in next round he will be busy to check every corner not to get backshot and his attention is by that significantly disrupted and unsettled and became partly blinded whats happening directly ahead of him :-)

[JeongWa]

You can predict as much as you can, but very often happens (due to not so good connection) that your enemy very easy get through your lines and your ability to predict looses its shine and suddenly means nothing :-) And its not because he would be extremely fast or was crouching or something...

I do not believe in people running trough lines, exept if they were enoughly fast to do so. (reaching a certain amout of speed)
What i believe in is people jumping over or crouching under, basicaly bypassing the bullets.
And this happens, oftenly you could swear that it was trough a line, but i know that if i do watch the replays, it was because the line wasnt accurate enough.

Anyways i avoid commiting on my lines and being exposed on an openfield because i know that there is a chance that the enemy bypass it.

I was concentrating predominantly on refuting the main myth. And there I stand on my point that aiming has nothing to do with "skill"

For me, aiming include mainly the fact that you need to predict where your enemy will be at on the next seconds by getting used to the ping you got and anticipating the delay well enough to strike when on higher ping.
You should simply play more on NA servers and you would answer yourself on how aiming needs skill specialy on higher ping.

Yes... I dont say that the best players are best only because of their connection. I would hate if some newbie told me on pub that Im better only because I have got better connection than him... Thats nonsense.

if you guys always wondered how the "best players" always did their amazing shots, its only because their connection was better than yours. Simple.

Well i'm kind of confused because you contredict yourself.
But we are in agreement that the ping gives an advantage, and its an important matter.

But saying that it has nothing to do with skill... it's paintball, you need to curve well enough the bullets to hit.
It also depend on who you shooting at, some players could stay alive more than 5s just by dodging the bullets by barely not moving.
Get who ever pub players you want with 20 ping against the faster DP players and i can already confirm that it will take way more time for them to kill than killing the average players.

I think there is new trend comming on DP which is dodging.

You mentionned boyka.

He likes to do that alot.

Most of the players aim by predicting, which means they do not even aim directly at people but were they think they will go. So if you stand still, there is huge chance that you will improve your living time for few seconds.
Just an exemple of many, the last (exemple of it) match we did :

- http://banterous.co.uk/demo/1331 (17:40~)

and

- http://banterous.co.uk/demo/1333 (07:18~)

Look at this, and look at the chat so you will have a preview on what is going on there. (this is just an exemple and i could find demos where the dodging is more obvious but you will understand what i meant just by looking those.)
So with this new trend, people actually question their actual aiming capability, and needs to alternate it. Alot of players act confused and think that players are just non die, but in fact they are not, they just missed.
So, it does comfirm that aiming is more than just " shoting at something " but is most likely a prediction on where opponent will go.

Another exemple on why players aim differently, and that it can be relevant of their skill capabality is the fact that some players can JUMP and AIM at the same time without any problem and some cannot combine the two, and by that i didnt meant the usual strafing, but the hardest jumps.

Aiming is an unifcation of multiple things on which i can rely on and judge the skill of a player by looking at it.  Thats how i see it.
And thats why we are in disagreement about the aim

[Ranger]

Hmm, passing through lines is quite normal phenomenom Not above or under, but literally through. Im surprised that you think it is subject of a belief. Just exchange your conditions with some newbie at pub (if it would be possible) and you will see.

You took my citation out of context or its misunderstanding in the translation if you see there some contraindication

Other is your subjective experience, I cant say anything to that

[Mission]

Camping, in its most obvious, is a noob sitting behind a corner in a pub waiting to back shoot you. This is not the definition most people use when they accuse a player of camping. A 'camping' player in a match is really a defensive player.

Defending is an absolutely crucial part of most teams. There are a number of factors that lead to a round being won with however many points.
Slaying power, if you have lower ping and are better at aiming you have more slaying power. Jeongwa is correct about aiming being mostly a predicting skill.

Positional. If you are away from your base the enemy can grab and get more points leading to them winning the match.

Speed. In some maps it is particularly necessary to be fast so you can then turn that speed into position in order to win the round.
There may be other factors but I think this is a relatively simple and accurate model.

Camping is mostly about the positional aspect. It is not about unskilled kills, but it is about controlling the positions on the map. With a good camper you can control the point flow of the game. Campers can be outplayed by slaying, or rushing as Jeongwa says, but a good camper can overcome these most of the time and force 1pointers in 1v3 situations, instead of letting the enemies grab. This is why most good teams will have a slightly defensive camper like I play some of the time or a clutch 1v3 player like chemical plays.
(side note: the best players can slay, camp and be in position all while thinking ahead where the enemy is, needless to say who these players are)
Guide to being a good camper:
Play your life, no point being the clutchmaster if you dont stay alive to clutch
Get position on the map instead of camping base: helps the team out and camper can play more flexible role
Be able to fastly move back to base to defend the flag. Pforest this is very important and the bad teams are the only ones who dont do this.
Be a good slayer so you can do all of this.

Therefore campers are kind of all round players who can do every one of the slaying, position and speed roles well. They are a vital part of team tactics and a back up plan often saving the team from loss. Good campers are some of the most smart and skilled players in the game and the only way to counter them is become better at the 3 main principles, not by complaining about them as some people do.

Jeongwa also notes that dodging is becoming a trend. I believe it is aswell. It can be particularly effective if you vibrate back and forth to try and make the enemy over predict where you are going.
maybe it is the key to rockitudes success, although 20 ping might have something to do with it.

[MyeRs]

I don't think the playstyle of camping is a "noob" strategy. But if you watch "good" vs "lesser" teams over DP2 history, the lesser teams will probably camp in order to have a chance rather than rush/meet mid.

Why?

Because camping is the easier playstyle to do well in. It is much easier to wait for your opponent, in points of the map that are high up / with lots of vision, or try to hide and wait for them to run by. It is also easier to have steady aim while standing still. Plus, in a 1 hit game, it's easier to hold lines while standing still. Therefore, camping has always been the easier style to look "good" at.

Rushing has more aspects to it. It's riskier and takes more skill to be good at. Smooth movement, not running into the basic lines, aiming while moving, not just blinding rushing to play, must use more paths and jumps to be effective.

That being said, mindless camping vs mindless rushing is an idiots game of nothingness. A lot of players mindlessly rush and camping just becomes the predictable strategy to easily win. There are very few GOOD rushers in Dp2 history, I'd say from my memory, Shockwave and Olbaid were the hardest to deal with.

Campers, as Mission noted, should be referred to as defensive.

There's also control type players which are neither campers nor rushers. They tend to rush mid like rushers, and then control mid / slow push like a camper does. More of a mid centric game.

Anyways, no style is better then others. Some are easier then others. Every style can single handedly win games, it just comes down to skill at that style. And rushing is by far the hardest style to be "great" at.

[Zenit]

Hello, I wanna say a few things about a certain types of playing styles, what is usually considered as good/bad and I would like to offer a new perspective of looking at a certain things. After 10 years of knowing PB I have got some insights... You may also share your views.

Many times happens that when is somebody shooted to his back, eliminated player immidiatelly starts verball attack on his opponent: Camper! ... as if it mean he has no skills...  Now think - How skillfull reaction is to label somebody as a "Camper"? ... It is not skillfull reaction at all, your ego feels humiliated and threatened... Skillfull reaction would be: Ok, next time I have to pay better attention to my surroundings (without blaming anyone), because it was your fault, your amateurism that you died. You cant expect others to drop guns and turn back to you and let you to get easy kills... Remember: camping isnt about "who is better", but about "defending my interests" and always will be part of the game.

I would like also to talk about what players usually percieve as a skillfulness. And it is not what people usually think... Many will disagree with me, but skillfulness has nothing to do with the ability of aiming and shooting because it always depends on your connection (as every on-line game), that is a thing on which player has "no credit" and something I am after my PB "career" 100%  sure about...  That can be relief for "not so good players", because if you guys always wondered how the "best players" always did their amazing shots, its only because their connection was better than yours. Simple. You can recognize it when you see that your enemy has no problem with hitting you immidiatelly. You just must not judge players according to their ping, because it never tells the whole truth. But does that mean that everyone who is better in the game has only better connection than me? That would be comfortable excuse... It may be the case that he is truly better than you or me, but the quality of connection always plays a bigger role than most players are willing to admit, because they dont have comparison...

And a last small advice: Do not derive your player value from your numbers on the score board, because it doesnt says if you are playing good or bad. You still can have very negative score and have a nice feeling that you played well.

xd