Author Topic: Tactics vs Spray Fest  (Read 5740 times)

S8NSSON

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Tactics vs Spray Fest
« on: April 19, 2004, 05:18:11 AM »
Hey peeps

I was chattin it up on #paintball last night about a couple maps, and how they were designed with tactics in mind, and some one (can't remember who right now) piped up and said that DP had no tactics.

Q: Do alot of people feel this way?

I don't know how other mappers build thier maps, but I have always built my maps with tactics of some sorts in mind. At the very least I will place bunkers, barrels, boxes or whatever while thinking about how that spot can be defended, offended, or work together with other bunkers in a singular goal. I would imagine most mappers create thier maps in this manner.

Q: Mappers, how do you go about designing your maps?

I guess it depends on what you have in mind for your map. A map designed for matching could be smaller and more tactical, i guess? Whereas a map designed for the public servers could simply look cool?

I guess i'm just trying to get a sense of what people want in maps. I love to make maps, but would also like to see them played. In order to really have a map played you have to know what people want to play (or kiss alot of ass to have your map forced onto the public servers ;] ).

So what do you people want?
More good public server maps, or more match maps?

jitspoe

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2004, 07:42:18 AM »
Since we have 300+ sprayfest maps, I'd go for something tactical. :)  I think one of the biggest problems in the mapping area is low standards.  Part of that is due to the limitations of the Quake2 engine (which I hope to change), but it's mainly due to some server admins putting anything that has spawn points in rotation.  I mean, some maps aren't even lit!  It also seems that with this mod everyone wants to make a map (and for the most part, it seems everyone has made a map).  Back in the day where there were only 20 or so maps, it was cool to have some new stuff, but it quickly reverted to making arctic and crates clones.  People making maps without any skills or original ideas -- just making maps for the sake of making maps.  That's fine and all, but they really shouldn't be put into rotation.

Unfortunately they were put into rotation and now we've had a generation of players who have come to expect strategy free gameplay (and continue to make maps with that in mind).  When a map comes up that actually requires strategy, they all leave the server because they'll get owned by people who are actually skilled at strategic gameplay.  It seems most of the players would be happier in an empty box.  I've been noticing a new strategy reduction trend emerging: transparent bunkers.  As if a one-room map wasn't barren of strategy enough, now you can't even hide behind bunkers?

So in conclusion, there can be tactics, but the map has to allow for them (and most of them don't).

Your next question:

I tend to have two approaches to designing maps.  One is to go for something crazy and completely different, like bombsaway.  The other is to design a map from a strategy standpoint.  I use elements that I've seen work well in other maps and try to improve on them.

Example: in pforest, there's a crate between the ramp into the base and the water.  It's the perfect size to hide behind.  A couple times I've seen pursuits and instead of running into the base as one would expect, the player ducks behind the box, and as the pursuer runs up the ramp thinking he went into the base, the player shoots him in the back.  Things like that bring tactics into the game, but you also need to be able to have counter tactics.  I strategically placed some crates like that in midnight2, but I also added a way to counter someone hiding behind the box -- there's smaller boxes next to the big boxes, so you can jump on them and shoot down at the person hiding.

Another thing I do when designing maps for tactical gameplay is look for elements I hate in maps and find ways to avoid them.  The most common is having only one path to the base, making it impossible to get into the base without running past a player on the other team.  Usually maps like that boil down to a big sprayfest until there's 1 or 2 players left on each team and they run past each other for the flags, then it's another short sprayfest until on gets lucky and kills the other guy, or they just both exchange caps.  That's no good -- no tactics, it just ends up being a 1vs1.  So always, always, always have alternative paths into the bases.  I've seen some really nice map designs that have large, elaborate bases and multiple paths, but then it all funnels down to a single tunnel or door that everyone has to go through and totally ruins the gameplay.

On the flip side, you have to be careful not to make the map to complicated or have so many paths that everyone ends up going a different direction and not running into other players, then it just becomes a straight capfest.  Gotta find a balance.  One thing that will help, though, is the new rotation system meaning you will be able to design a map for a specific number of players.

Another big thing most maps lack as far as strategy goes is item placement.  I'm sick of maps that have 50 autocockers in each base.  These should be prized items and difficult to obtain.  The layout I typically use is to have low end weapons along the "rush" path, medium equipment in the "defense" path, and high end equipment in out of the way places.  I love picking someone off with a stingray as they climb up after the autococker in midnight2.  It adds another element to the gamplay -- you have to chose: fight with the low end equipment or try to obtain something better.

And to answer your final question -- I'd like to get the community to the point where good match maps are good public server maps.

S8NSSON

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2004, 08:10:50 AM »
Thanx Jitspoe, that really helps alot. And with your quality of maps I was hoping for an elaborate response from you in particular, and got it. Hopefully this will improve my forthcoming maps.

I have started three new maps since the two I just released only to trash them because I just wasn't satisfied with them. Hopefully I will have something unique, tactical, and fun to play here in the next few days/weeks.

jitspoe

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2004, 09:24:26 AM »
Kind of funny you brought this up because I had just started writing some mapping documentation last night focusing on the "do's" and "don'ts" of paintball level design.

KeV

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2004, 04:13:00 PM »
I'm kinda new at this game. I love the idea of stategy, but there are problems with some of the players on this topic. Everytime I sit in one spot for...not even 20 sec. and I shoot someone, they call me a "camper". It happens almost everytime. Either me or someone else will be called it...or swore at. Another example of being called a "camper" is when I or others guard the flag. How do you play capture the flag??? PEOPLE GUARD THE FLAG and other's go for the other teams flag. It makes me so mad when I see the word camper because it's so annoying. Like I said, I love trategy games and that would make this game a lot more enjoyable rather than a "spray fest".

Excalibur

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2004, 08:07:48 PM »
kev i know what you mean paintball is a game of camping really. when they say that just ignore them. granted staying in the same place or even gaurding round after round after round is camping but to do it 50%-60% of the time its fine.

S8NSSON

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 06:33:46 AM »
In Rust my job 80% of the time was to defend.
I camped like a mo-fo.
The better the oposing team, the more action I got (sometimes too much)

On the public servers I used to use my match keys and tell my team that I was defending or offending each round (i should rebind those keys). When I defend I scout all strategic locations to defend from then I typically randomly select a different one each round. It really pisses off a charging type of person when you suprisingly smack them in the back of the head with some paint, but that's the game baby!!!

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2004, 05:49:01 PM »
Post removed
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 01:21:47 AM by Dirty_Taco »

Excalibur

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2004, 06:01:43 PM »
yes doing that is camping but if you just stay in your base thats defense well put taco

jitspoe

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2004, 10:39:00 AM »
Newbie camping is where you stay in some spot that people almost never go and the opposing team makes repeated flag runs on you. :)

Excalibur

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2004, 05:06:37 PM »
yea thats newbie camping but oo so fun if your the one caping :D

KeV

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2004, 05:17:17 PM »
I never stay in the same spot for too long and still the word camper comes up when I shoot people when I am sitting. It makes no sence. Just today, my friend and I were playing in a game. Forthx said "I can camp too". It was so funny... my friend got so mad. I'm just going to post "deal with it or leave" or something from now on. :) I use stategy when I play and hidding is part of it.

Excalibur

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2004, 06:39:54 PM »
how many peeps here play real paintball and just run into the enemy base guns blazzing? how many do you take out before you get shot 100 times? camping is also called defending by the skilled unless you are hiding behind a box and shoot peeps in the back then thats camping. camping can also be siting in one spot spreying the only way into the base.

jitspoe

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2004, 11:42:35 PM »
I don't really see a problem with shooting people in the back.  It's their own fault for having their back to you. :)

Excalibur

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2004, 12:50:52 AM »
well if they are camping in a spot were you cant see unless you go past them and turn around (like when they are up on a ledge crouched) and when you pass them they shoot you in the back thats camping.

FourthX

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2004, 07:59:12 AM »
To me shooting someone in the back is the best shot you can make, since they won't be shooting back at you lol. A for mr Kev up there quoting me out of context... I was winning the game vs both of them pretty easily so I figured I would be a gentleman and keep attacking to keep the game interesting.

RoyalBlood

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2004, 03:18:27 PM »
Late in replying, but still relevent.

There are definte tactics in DP.  If you go on graffitti and play a typical public game, you wont find them though.  But in a real match, they are there.  Anyone who wishes to make maps should make them with specific tactics in mind.  Ideally you want to try to make a map that is fun to play, has lots of strategic tactics, and looks nice.

The most important things to consider is item placement and multiple paths.  Making the guns and equipment balanced so that there is enough, but yet not so much that everyone can just spray the whole time.  I love jits concept of lesser guns on the rush paths, medium in defensive places, higher end in difficult to reach spots.  Also making a map that has multiple paths but isnt too complex is key.  If a map maker can work on those and get that part of it right, then they can at least make a decent map.  Including more tactical spots and making it look nicer in general is just icing on the cake - what seperates the good from the great.

I would like to see someone attempt to make a good strategically balanced 4 team map.  We dont have too many of those.  Kaos and Winter1 are fun, but are too linear for a bigger match.  I'd like to see something that would work for a 5v5v5v5 type of match  :D

jitspoe

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2004, 01:29:20 PM »
*cough*canyonism*cough* ;)

RoyalBlood

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Re: Tactics vs Spray Fest
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2004, 08:45:08 AM »
Well hurry up with it then ;D