Author Topic: Keep Q2 Map Format? (Read 10990 times)

jitspoe · « **on:** August 19, 2005, 03:29:45 PM »

I've had a few requests to completely dump support for the old q2 map format when I implement a new level format. This may not affect my decision, but I'm curious what people think. Before you vote, take into consideration the pros and cons of keeping the old format:

Pros:
- Obviously, you'd have all the old classic maps to play.
- It's probably easier to make the Q2 maps than it will be to make maps in the new format.

Cons:
- The quality of most of the old maps is, to put it simply, crap. Even Quake1 has better maps than most of the paintball2 maps.

And the pros and cons of using solely a new map format:

Pros:
- The new maps could be regulated and require a thorough testing/review process before they are allowed on public servers.
- We can severely jack up the standards so people will be inspired by quality maps, and not make crappy maps inspired by other crappy maps.
- We can implement new features that require mapper cooperation, such as area location entities and bot waypoints.
- From a coding perspective, it might mean less work to maintain and thus faster releases and all that.

Cons:
- The new maps will be much more detailed and have higher polygon counts, and thus won't be suitable for some of the old systems people are still playing paintball2 on. You'd probably need a system that could handle Half-life2 or UT2004.
- The classic maps would have to be re-made.
- There would be a period where there would only be a small handful of maps (maybe this isn't a con? Doesn't seem to be a problem for Counter-Strike).
- May result in a split in the community.

I'm sure there are lots of other pros/cons. I might edit this later.

Edit: just realized that the title of the topic and the question in the poll asked the opposite questions -- kinda confusing if you don't read carefully. I changed the subject to better match the poll question.

loial21 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2005, 05:24:21 PM »

My first reaction is YOUR FIRED!!!!!

I dont care how pretty it looks give me a good engine and no lag that is all, the rest I can deal with. Ignorance is bliss.

Hear is my list of a pro and con.

Pro :

Me playing my favorite game. Thanks to everyone Developers, admins and players

Con:

You changing my favorite game.

JK bud do what you think is best. This community is as split as its going to get. All I ask is that you continue to support the older mods and maps. Also, please assure that some of the classic maps are redone. Besides it would be refreshing to play against e3rrt when they are the newbs

"Blitz I am laughing at the superior Intellect" yet another excellent quote from the best movie every

hugs

Dirty_Taco · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2005, 09:27:46 PM »

Post removed

loial21 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2005, 10:01:02 PM »

Quote from: Dirty_Taco on August 19, 2005, 09:27:46 PM

( I would definitly like to remake some of them).

The next logical question is what were the most public played maps.

Murdock · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2005, 12:43:48 AM »

As far as I can tell, the most played maps on public servers are pbcup, xbmap, shazaam, blitz, etc. In other words, the crap Jit is referring to. I say go with a new format, one that is hard enough to keep the newbies out, but easy enough to get some creative ppl a format to produce some quality maps. It isn't like I have a lot of experience, but it seems that the current format is quite limiting as to what can be designed. Most ppl who run the bare min req's for pball will be updating down the road for w/e reason. Why cater to the past? Plan for the future.

Eiii · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:41:34 AM »

The new map format should be less restricting. Not brush-based, in other words. Possibly in .obj form? (before compilation, of course.) That'd let people use their favorite 3D editor to make their map.

XtremeBain · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2005, 09:20:14 AM »

Since it has been brought up, I think I will address the previous paintball2 community splits.

- New paintball flight path: ball trajectory modified by creating variations in the horizontal axis as well as increased performance with better barrels and certain markers.
This change created a lot of uproar because it removed the perfectly straight and the wicked arch that the balls had previously travelled in that every player in the community had honed their skills to. This was causing players who had been playing for YEARS to adapt to the change and start aiming 50% lower than usual. The community was separated by veteran players and those who enjoyed the extra addition of realism to the game. Years later everyone still plays and enjoys the game like before except with the new ball trajectory.

- Paintball 2 Standalone Alpha releases: A standalone for the game had been created which had really distanced itself from the traditional Q2 client in terms of visual, optimization and performance aspects.
A split in the community was created among those who enjoyed the great additions that the new client had to offer and those who have found that it interfered with their gameplay which had been perfected in the traditional client(this is commonly eR33t's typical excuse). Also cheaters found it was much better to use a traditional style of quake2 because they could benefit from the cheats released within other game communities which were still focused on the traditional quake2 client. Cheating - even though is still possible through the Alpha releases - is greatly enhanced with features such as non-working aimbots and customization menus(because remember, half a dozen commands are hard to recall when you have to process all the information you normally wouldn't be seeing on the other sides of walls) which just weren't readily available with the Alpha releases(sorry kids). Eventually everyone just started using the new standalone releases anyway because they were far more superior and Ironfist led the way releasing standalone copies with "WA!!H4X Menus" so all the kids could enjoy crushing the dreams of those who play 20+ hours a week on the sub-par public servers.

As far as the map format to be; I believe it will be really close that the format that Quake3Arena mostly due to the timing of this discussion and the release of the Quake3 source code. Anything else would probably but much more work for what it's worth(but I'd always be up for strictly releasing solid maps both enjoyable at the public play and competitive levels). I'd love to see a great new face on maps that jitspoe and DirtyTaco could have to offer(I don't see very many other experienced mappers active in the community right now)

Don't expect everyone to leave the game or firmly reject the change. The community is good at complaining but not acting, and the lack of will power that is seen in most of the community past and present only means that they will eventually accept whatever you throw at them; good, bad or horrible.

Eiii · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2005, 01:46:05 PM »

One thing i don't understand is how Q3 map format is different form the Q2. From what i've seen, it's still brushbased. I think we need to at least try to get to a non-brushbased mapformat. Brushes are restricting, in my opinion.

IronFist · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:24:58 PM »

Post removed

b00nlander · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:57:06 PM »

Quote from: Dirty_Taco on August 19, 2005, 09:27:46 PM

I think we should go with the new format. Mainly because i like mapping, have no creative energy, and think that alot of the old classics could be remade and have alot of the flaws taken out. ( I would definitly like to remake some of them).

Of course I'm partial to using worldcraft because its easy, if this new map format would require me to have to use something else i might have voted no.

Well, look what has been done with Counterstrike. The maps in CS: Source really look a lot better than the old ones, old maps have been kept and greatly remodeled/enhanced and new nice maps have been created (like port). Thus I vote in favor of a new map format.

loial21 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2005, 11:27:43 PM »

Quote from: XtremeBain on August 20, 2005, 09:20:14 AM

Since it has been brought up, I think I will address the previous paintball2 community splits.

- New paintball flight path: ball trajectory modified by creating variations in the horizontal axis as well as increased performance with better barrels and certain markers.
This change created a lot of uproar because it removed the perfectly straight and the wicked arch that the balls had previously travelled in that every player in the community had honed their skills to. This was causing players who had been playing for YEARS to adapt to the change and start aiming 50% lower than usual. The community was separated by veteran players and those who enjoyed the extra addition of realism to the game. Years later everyone still plays and enjoys the game like before except with the new ball trajectory.

- Paintball 2 Standalone Alpha releases: A standalone for the game had been created which had really distanced itself from the traditional Q2 client in terms of visual, optimization and performance aspects.
A split in the community was created among those who enjoyed the great additions that the new client had to offer and those who have found that it interfered with their gameplay which had been perfected in the traditional client(this is commonly eR33t's typical excuse). Also cheaters found it was much better to use a traditional style of quake2 because they could benefit from the cheats released within other game communities which were still focused on the traditional quake2 client. Cheating - even though is still possible through the Alpha releases - is greatly enhanced with features such as non-working aimbots and customization menus(because remember, half a dozen commands are hard to recall when you have to process all the information you normally wouldn't be seeing on the other sides of walls) which just weren't readily available with the Alpha releases(sorry kids). Eventually everyone just started using the new standalone releases anyway because they were far more superior and Ironfist led the way releasing standalone copies with "WA!!H4X Menus" so all the kids could enjoy crushing the dreams of those who play 20+ hours a week on the sub-par public servers.

As far as the map format to be; I believe it will be really close that the format that Quake3Arena mostly due to the timing of this discussion and the release of the Quake3 source code. Anything else would probably but much more work for what it's worth(but I'd always be up for strictly releasing solid maps both enjoyable at the public play and competitive levels). I'd love to see a great new face on maps that jitspoe and DirtyTaco could have to offer(I don't see very many other experienced mappers active in the community right now)

Don't expect everyone to leave the game or firmly reject the change. The community is good at complaining but not acting, and the lack of will power that is seen in most of the community past and present only means that they will eventually accept whatever you throw at them; good, bad or horrible.

What about the old maps? and where will the new mappers come from. Not hindering just curious.

Speaking of being something, I always wonder why your clan has not been active in 2 years? I remember when you took off grens and my 300 hoppers period on the clan server ...no offense but that was the lamest thing ever. I female doged and whined and even left the game untill snipen started hosting. God bless him that assholle. This has been three splits for meh. Stop tearing my heart apart!!!

Any how before i tear your brain apart with my semi-rhetoric , i shall hug you amd depart with a thank you for you vauled input.

But before I leave

- New paintball flight path

I have complained about seeing the ball travel before, this more accurately describes what I am not seeing but now guessing. I dont mind the randomness of the flight but the fact this has not been better explained or taught.

Blitz · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2005, 11:50:40 PM »

loial21: You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about... (and neither does anyone else!)

XtremeBain: +1

loial21 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2005, 02:10:48 AM »

Quote from: Blitz on August 20, 2005, 11:50:40 PM

loial21: You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about... (and neither does anyone else!)

XtremeBain: +1

You are correct I know nothing of mapping.

I do know when I first changed (dont make me post my complaints) to alpha, seeing the way the ball was flying to the target was better with q2. Ive been told again and again its server side. Keep up with meh.. How ever when I am playing q2 I can better ... determen where the balls is landing and its path of travel.
sorry so stupid... *loial -1

BTW thanks for letting me know what EVERYONE THINKS!! Lol

for that you get a

*+2 for leet geeking

kill the week and newbular. LOL

Eiii · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2005, 02:30:14 AM »

Quote from: loial21 on August 20, 2005, 11:27:43 PM

What about the old maps? and where will the new mappers come from. Not hindering just curious.

Uh... When the old map format goes away, the mappers usually don't go with it. If it's a good format, then it'll probably bring more.

XtremeBain · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2005, 06:54:19 AM »

The 300 count hoppers disappearing was something that jitspoe had decided was necessary and was not within any control(almost certain.. correct me if I'm wrong) of the server admin. Of course I could have kept running the old server version so that 1% of the community could stop whining or I could benefit from the other changes made for that release.
As for the grenades, they started dominating the game. If I could have had a maplist without maps designed for 1v1-2v2 which had 12 people on it constantly than the explode-on-impact grenades would have been left in. Instead I elected to disable the grenades until I could get the primed(time delay) grenades back. And besides, I didn't disable the smoke grenades

.

I'm just glad we can all thank snipen for your return as the rogue tyrant group of players known as eR33t subsided to their small channel on the corner of the scene. From this day forward it shall be known as the PB2 Renaissance of 2004.

Dirty_Taco · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2005, 10:45:44 AM »

Post removed

loial21 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2005, 06:41:01 PM »

hahah bain

Bows head.

RuiNeR · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:27:33 AM »

New format all the way. I would love to be forced to play GOOD maps instead of the excrement that is on servers now.
I feel like only having a handful of maps is better than an abundance. A new map format + 1 large maps, 2 medium maps, and 2 small maps would be a great start. Just make sure you have enough maps and enough variety so people will continue to use the new format and not switch back when they are bored. And I really think the community would benefit from a 3rd party map review site with a reviewer that has the know how and balls to rate a map correctly (ahhemm jitspoe). Unfortuneatly that would be too much of a time constraint for jit so someone else who isn't a moron should do it.

I hated the new ball path, but only because the player's direction and velocity affected the ball's. I was so used to the crosshair actually working I guess, but I'm used to it now.

I never saw a downside to the stand alone version. I loev the fact you don't need to install it. The registry is for excretory openings.

Oh and explode on contact grens are for weenies, get rid of them!!

jitspoe · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2005, 02:14:05 PM »

I'm a weenie then -- I love the EOE grens. Though I did make a change for build 15 so that they can always kill the thrower, regardless of the ffire settings -- that should cut down on the lame tactics.

Actually, for all future maps, I'm planning to use DSM, so maps will vary in size and shape depending on the player count.

Eiii · « **Reply #19 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:53:47 PM »

DSM?

And how is the quake3 map file better than quake2? How is it less restricting?

Poll

Should I keep support for Q2 format maps?

Author Topic: Keep Q2 Map Format? (Read 10990 times)