Author Topic: What drives away new players?  (Read 23715 times)

Edgecrusher

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2007, 11:04:04 AM »
Wow. Chill Xbain. I misread his last sentence.

XtremeBain

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2007, 01:15:39 PM »
Didn't mean to come across like a prick, just sick of everyone here (even the mods sometimes) policing the forums -- especially with new posters.

y00tz

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2007, 01:24:38 PM »
Didn't mean to come across like a prick, just sick of everyone here (even the mods sometimes) policing the forums -- especially with new posters.

I don't think anyone of us mean to come off strong, myself especially.  It's an unfortunate downside to the internet, you guys never get to hear my tone or see the smile.

Herron

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2007, 05:35:04 PM »
I'd say the biggest turn off for new players is the maps.  While I honestly feel that castle1 is a great map and a map like blitz is not, new players want to actually PLAY... not walk around lost for 90 seconds and then get one-shotted by someone they didn't see or be ridiculed by people for being newbies and letting the other team cap.  I also like the 60 second revive, but again, new players are here to PLAY... not sit in observer mode.  There's a reason the most populated servers are the OTB speed server and syncmaster's cable -- it's because those servers play straight forward maps with very little downtime.

Personally, I think a team deathmatch mode would fix a lot of the frustration that new players feel because they would be pretty much assured instant action and reduced amount of other players complaining at them because hopefully they'll be too busy playing as well.  Spawns would have to be true team deathmatch though (i.e., random spots across the map), because no one would like spawning in the same 6 spots over and over and over and over... especially if someone's just sitting there spraying the spawns (ub_cliff on OTB speed, anyone?)

Maps in general are also VERY far from being newbie friendly.  Do you really expect someone completely new to the game to enjoy playing carpathian, airtime#, or pball_shreds#?  I'm not knocking any of those maps for match play or even for pubs (lord knows I prefer them over stuff like blitz), but for the apparently 1000 new players downloading this game every day do you really think they would enjoy trying to figure out the controls while walking around and then getting shot by someone flying through the air at what must seem to be an impossible speed and height before they have a chance to react?  Then, to top it all off, they have to sit in observer mode for 60 seconds before they have an opportunity to even test out any more controls/guns/items -- assuming someone doesn't spawn kill them, thereby putting them out of the action for another 60 seconds.

One of the best mapping books I ever got for Duke Nukem 3D -- which was the greatest game(play) ever... maybe you've heard of it? -- was The Official Duke Nukem 3D Level Design Handbook.  I still have it, and not just for the nostalgic value.  Appendix A in the book is Richard Gray's (aka Levelord -- the guy who did the majority of the duke3d maps) 17 Design Points for making a memorable level.  I won't type the whole thing out since it's 8 full pages, but here are his points:
1. The main theme
2. Frame rate
3. Continuity
4. Details and realism
5. Appropriate enemies and weapons
6. There is no design point 6
7. The stick and the carrot (as applied to dp, this would be trick jumps -- but he takes care to mention that any particular reward should not be so overpowered as to make the challenge a necessity for the map to succeed)
8. Pick your audience and build around it (it's fine to make a match map, but server admins shouldn't be running maps like nhb in pub rotations -- not that any are now, i'm just making an example)
9. Player interaction
10. A well-balanced level
11. Pushing the envelope of the game engine (whoever made the first paintgren shooting canon, I commend you.  That's a darn nifty idea.)
12. Patterns
13. Connections (views of areas yet to come -- i.e., windows)
14. Puzzles (the button to release your teammates from jail in routez is also a pretty darn cool idea)
15. Think sneaky (i don't think he was talking about hidden orgy rooms though...)
16. The fiddler's roof (N/A, it's a single player rule)
17. Practice what you preach (i'll quote this one in its entirety because apparently some people don't know it.  "The last but definitely not the least good level-design point is play-testing.  Play-test your level until you are sure you've checked everything.  Play-test it some more, and then play-test it again.  You should be completely sick of your level before you consider it finished.  No matter what the target audience of your map will be -- single players, multiple players, or whoever -- play-test it under those exact conditions.")

The other official Duke 3d map designer, Allen Blum, had this helpful tip in his checklist, "Make the map . . . playable by everybody across all skill levels."

Okay, somehow this turned into a preaching post on map design, but I really do feel that the maps and general gameplay of DP are not tailored to new people at all.  When you have a game that's one-shot-one-kill and there is such an incredibly high skill discrepancy between completely new players and people that have played for more than 3 months, it's going to be incredibly frustrating for a new player to run around on a map without any idea of where he is and then have a 60 second downtime once he finally encounters someone that either lands a single lucky shot on him or is just so much higher than his skill level that he didn't have a chance.  I think a team deathmatch mode would be a tremendous help to alleviate some of this frustration that I'm sure new players feel.

------

As for the graphics, I think you made a good decision in requiring an OpenGL card.  Now I think you need to take it to the next step and include high-res textures with the game and have them turned on by default.  You don't have to remove support for the old ones or not provide them anymore, but at least provide the GOOD ones with no seams in the distro and have high res textures turned on by default.  I'm a big fan of both yours and FourthX's because you guys actually paid attention to whether seams in tiling is noticeable.  Fullscreen should also be on by default and 800x600 resolution.  I can't tell you how much more fun the game became when I dloaded a high-res texture pack and could appreciate how good the game actually looked for the first time in 10 years.

I also think the language barrier is an issue, but not much we can do about that.

I also think default.cfg should have "menu setup_controls" at the end of it so it's run the first time a new player loads the game if config.cfg doesn't exist yet.

----

One last thing -- I stress maps and downtime so much because this is a free game.  Players have nothing invested in it, and therefore are under no feeling of obligation to play it.  Someone mentioned TF2 earlier, so I'll use that as an example -- if you went out and spent 50 bucks on the Orange Box to get TF2, are you going to quit it the first or second day because you didn't understand the gameplay or got frustrated at not being able to kill anything?  Of course not -- you just spent 50 bucks.  Now put yourself in the shoes of someone in that same frustrating situation when they downloaded a new game for free...

webhead

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2007, 06:09:11 PM »
I'm a newbie. I haven't even played yet. How new is that. I am not a real enthusiastic gamer. I am normally glad to turn off the computer after work.
I downloaded the game a couple of weeks ago when I was interested in getting a few good quality free games. I registered then. When it was finished downloading I didn't have any more time to do anything with it. Today I came across the download and installed it but cannot remember my password and couldn't find how t reset it myself. I have emailed Jitspoe a yahoo but I don't know if it a valid email address. I guess I am at the first turn off point.

hey dude, thanks for your comments, and welcome to DP.
You might like to know that Jits is more likely to get your message if you send him a PM through the forums.
cheers.


also, back on topic: back when i was a total noob, i think one of the things that was a turn-off for me was when i'd be playing with people that had any amount of skill, getting pwned easily by them started making me feel like i didn't have a fighting chance. and when i don't feel like i even have a fighting chance ... i quit. in fact, that's probably what i did (meaning, i'd close the game when i started feeling that way). one big thing i remember is feeling like the experienced players knew all the secrets and i didn't.

to me, i don't think i ever questioned the game because of the quality of the graphics. yah some newer games might look pretty nice, but so what? it's all about the gameplay. after all, why do some people still enjoy old SNES games???

QueeNiE

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2007, 06:23:23 PM »
Herron that was one awe inspiring post.  As have several others in this thread. 


And for those who havn't already..

Head on over to the Feature Vote Thread and vote for Team DeathMatch!!


11. Pushing the envelope of the game engine (whoever made the first paintgren shooting canon, I commend you.  That's a darn nifty idea.)


Why thank you.  (At least I think I was first)

DrRickDaglessMD

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2007, 06:33:05 PM »
great post Herron, I agree entirely and the duke3d stuff was spot on.

The way this looks to me right now is that if we divvy up the areas people have mentioned, it might look like this:

Graphics
 - Popular maps can be ugly ones which is off-putting to casual and new players.
 - Art direction is incongruous with the gameplay.
 - Shipped textures aren't up to date with expectations of a modern game (even a free one).

Gameplay
 - Popular maps aren't conducive to new players initial learning curve and can cause a negative reaction to more extreme gameplay features (impossible jumping, etc...)
 - Custom content is frustrating and off putting pre-build 20, or to put it another way - popular/desired content is not distributed with the application
 - Some maps are too esoteric for beginners skills.
 - popular maps' game modes aren't conducive to an accessible first-experience of DP, aka lack of TDM maps.
 - Server setting trends can mean frustration for new players (60 sec respawn, etc...)

Interface
 - difficult to understand interface
 - no account creation in-game
 - with an initial config diaglogue, configuration to preferable settings not likely to occur before their 'first go'.
 - simplistic server browser

Sounds
 - pretty rubbish.

Community
 - bad attitudes turning new players away from the 'elitist' community
 - no 'training wheels' sandboxy type servers like on some MP games.

I've probably missed a load out, so feel free to correct me. In my opinion, these points distills to these action points:

Mapping
 + More good looking maps over more accessible game-types (TDM or DM), with multilayered gameplay to cater for all skill levels. <-- reeeaallly hard.
 + Inclusion of more popular and modern maps into the distributable to cut down on custom content.
 + Inclusion of hi-res textures and other hi-def material.

Servers
 + Conversion/Creation of newbie-friendly sandbox servers running specially selected accessible maps (which would be included in the distro) for new players to learn the game on, or at least become initially familiar with. With good enough promotion of these servers, they should always be populated with new players and hopefully attentive admins who can make sure disruptive pro's don't just connect to decimate the gameplay. These servers would have shorter respawns, etc... to encourage players to stick around and play a few rounds.

Interface
 + More advanced server browsers which gives more information about each server, etc... more akin to games like CS and Battlefield.
 + Inital configuration dialog, improving a lot of players first impression of the game graphically, instead of being greeted by fullscreen 640x480 or whatever.
 + Account creation dialog in game.

Sounds
 + Lots of work to be done bringing the sounds in the game to an acceptable level (and a legal one!). I think I read a while ago about a sound pack being made, but I haven't heard much lately. This really needs to be addressed and will probably be a fair bit of work.

Community
 + a lot has been talked about the poor state of the community, however I feel it has improved lately so perhaps it marks a slow change in attitudes prevailant in the game. The elitist attitudes in DP are probably the most abhorrent aspect of the game for most new players.

Just an attempt to sum it up and put some action planning points forward, let me know what you think.

- Dagless

webhead

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2007, 06:41:18 PM »
thanks, dag.

i think it's great that we have people that care about the direction of this game and everything that surrounds it. never give up.
who knows, maybe someday those losers on Wikipedia will actually let us have an entry. ;)

DaRkNeSS

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2007, 08:40:14 PM »
Make DP come with H-Res textures.  Get rid of the stupid sounds.  I mean honestly, who actually likes them? 



Another suggestion is having like a "tip of the day" type thing when they open DP.  Have most of the tips relating to getting on IRC and stuff.  You could have a command to disable the tip from coming up which you could tell to the players on IRC and on the forums.

lekky

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2007, 08:48:31 PM »
Another suggestion is having like a "tip of the day" type thing when they open DP.  Have most of the tips relating to getting on IRC and stuff.  You could have a command to disable the tip from coming up which you could tell to the players on IRC and on the forums.

Strange sense of deja vu :D

atmays

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2007, 11:15:33 PM »
I dont know about much but i think the game builds should come with the CTP. Helps the graphics alot. I think that focus should be on more High Res textures. The graphics not that bad with a good texture pack. Just my opinion.


EDIT:I jus read HERRONS ending of post pretty much same thing sorry.

Cobo

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2007, 11:55:22 PM »
Has anyone thought of making some sort of "Paintballer Handbook"?
It would be pretty easy to do with the menu system. I imagine it would be something like an index with many different chapters about how to play DP like  "How to change weapon" or "Throwing a grenade", once you click one of those chapters it would take you to another menu where it gives you an explanation and a link that would start a demo that showed you how to do it.
And just for the sake of making it look more attractive it should have some sort of book-ish theme.

I think it would help people figure out most of the complicated stuff about DP that drives people away in the first place.

Zorchenhimer

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2007, 12:00:41 AM »
It would be pretty easy to do with the menu system.

However, it would be extremely painstaking.  Believe me, I tried.  And that was only a little GLS help menu.

Cobo

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2007, 12:05:16 AM »
Well, you can just have everything done in pictures, even the text.

webhead

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2007, 12:06:47 AM »
:) zorch is one step ahead of the game.

Zorchenhimer

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2007, 12:07:17 AM »
Well, you can just have everything done in pictures, even the text.

Even so, very painstaking.  At least, until I get my variables in the menus.  ;)

Cobo

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2007, 12:13:28 AM »
XD how would variables help in that case?
Also, I remember I managed to add variables in menus with a single line of code... It was just a quick hack tho.

Zorchenhimer

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2007, 01:01:20 AM »
XD how would variables help in that case?

Code: [Select]
widget
   text "picture one"
   command $selected_pic picture_one.jpg

widget
   text "picture two"
   command $selected_pic picture_two.jpg

widget
   pic $selected_pic

Thats how.  And yes, I know that is missing allot of widget settings...

Cobo

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2007, 01:29:54 AM »
Ohh I see what you are talking about.
Well, I was actually thinking about something like having 4 picture widgets display at once, and have the other chapters in other "pages"

DaRkNeSS

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Re: What drives away new players?
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2007, 02:17:15 AM »
Strange sense of deja vu :D


Yeah I've suggested it before.