Author Topic: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)  (Read 17819 times)

y00tz

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2008, 10:14:18 AM »
James, again I ask,
James, is your problem that is wasn't properly publicized and documented, or that Jitspoe changed it to begin with?

Would you rather he make changes and tell us, or just not make them to begin with?  Or have community vote and discussion...?
I understand exactly what you're talking about.

Tweaking gameplay isn't unprecedented anywhere.  Triple A titles get patches that affect the game... it's natural.

Blitz

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2008, 12:34:52 PM »
I think there should be some kind of notification directed toward the community before _any_ change that affects game-play is implemented, so that discussion is allowed before hand.

Here we're talking about tweaking something just a bit (~5%), a change that is almost certainly not noticeable for the large majority of the community. I can see how some would say 'so what' / 'who cares'; as obviously this doesn't really have a widespread effect. However, why make the change at all if it is largely insignificant to the bulk of the community?

I feel like the people who are most affected by something like this are the veteran players (such as myself) who have the most familiarity with the previous 'aiming' techniques.  If you will -- compare it to, say, the developers of UT2K4 releasing a patch for their game that makes the rail-gun shoot a few in-game-inches lower than normal. They've researched some game statistics, and found that the most common rail miss occurs above the enemy’s model, so they decided for the sake of game-play that they would implement a small tweak to accommodate this new information. No posts or discussions for this tweak are made, just a couple lines of text added to a .log file in the install directory.

Average Community Reaction: None. They wouldn't even notice. However, if it was finally discovered / announced on a public scale, I think the majority of the community would embrace the new patch. Hey, I can hit more rails now?! Great!

Veteran / Professional Community: There are people in every community who have spent years honing their game and hand movement to meld perfectly with the game they specialize in. All of a sudden, without warning -- they are required to make small changes to this developed skill.

Obviously our game (dp) is on a much smaller scale. People do not make a living playing dp (except Skater); however, I chose this example in an attempt to emphasize the issue on a different level.

To summarize my thoughts: The smaller group of veteran players suffer, while the bulk of the community has no noticeable impact at all. The difference between my example and this case is that there hasn't even been any such statistical evaluation done which implies a positive effect on game-play from the tweak! At least in my example there was some kind of community wide good-intent, and not just some kind of developmental OCD for no specific (or at least not specified) reason (no disrespect intended, I do truly value your continued development on this great game of ours – I just struggle to understand some of your methodology) .

Or perhaps, the point is to just continually make these little changes as small, irritating slaps to the face of players such as myself? Are you pushing to eradicate the already struggling competitive clan-scene as a whole -- in the quest of non-stop public servers, running 8 different server versions, with all kinds of different configurations, and a complete lack of standardization for the community to agree upon (and the clan scene to look toward for guidance)?

If so, you are on the right track.. :(

As a veteran of this game, I ask -- Please, just let us know if and when you plan on making changes like this in the future, so that we at least have the opportunity to discuss them in an intelligent and organized manner before things are set in stone.

Thank you.

FlaMe

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2008, 12:42:31 PM »
well put...

Eiii

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 01:00:30 PM »
Yep, that's about it.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 01:16:30 PM »
In Jitspoe's defense, he did put it in the change log in the docs (not in the main changelog, as I erroneously pointed out in the post Eiii is referring to) it's not like the change was completely hidden... and we are all aware now that is occured :P

how many of you actually go looking through the "change log"? and even if you did go looking through it, how many would have actually noticed the change? if it wasn't for Xtremebain finding it, this topic wouldn't even be here.

lekky

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2008, 01:19:19 PM »
How about asking him why he did it before jumping on his back ???

James

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2008, 02:20:27 PM »
So from what I've gathered, you newbies still have no clue. Who cares if he's documented it or not, he's made ANOTHER change without anyones consent, just goes ahead and does it. I'm wonder why. It is a noticeable change to people who've played this game long enough.

The impact grenades were like Build 14 dude..


Think I remember er33t whining about those because they couldn't handle the new gameplay the impact nades brought.

You do know the reason why impacts were put in?

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2008, 02:38:55 PM »
Post removed
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 12:01:27 AM by Dirty_Taco »

James

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2008, 02:53:26 PM »
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. When Jitspoe didn't tell anyone and just made it the server default... kind of like he's doing again now? That was fixed fast though, when people said it's a stupid change that he didn't tell anyone about and then turned off on all the servers.

Cobo

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2008, 03:25:54 PM »
I agree with you guys about it being wrong that jitspoe just tweaks the gameplay without anyones consent, but I guess that Jitspoe should be able to do whatever he wants with the game even if he doesnt have anyones consent.

jitspoe

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2008, 03:27:45 PM »
BoB: how could you forget tripping? That was another top-notch idea implemented by jitspoe.
Except it wasn't.

So, you complain when I make the ball speed too fast, I tweak it down a bit, and you complain some more.  Great.  I'm glad I have such a supportive community.

Y2J

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2008, 03:37:48 PM »
Well jitspoe, maybe if you didn't play favorites, towards people that don't even play for the most part, just because they "agree" with your views, and consulted the community before making many of the changes you have made, more people would have respect for you.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2008, 03:47:29 PM »
if people complained about it the first time it was changed, why would you do it again? you just stepped into this on your own. you should have let us know you were planning on making this change. i know it's your game your rules, but if you have no community to play it, what have you accomplished? next time atleast let us know what is going on in your head before you change something.

XtremeBain

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2008, 03:56:22 PM »
Those changes are probably for the best, but what's the reasoning behind it?  You've already backed the competitive community into a corner with the whole Feature Vote thread which is heavily dominated by non-competitive players.  Now you've made a change that would really only effect the competitive players without it having any presence on the feature vote list, any post about it on your .plan thread or any other thread on the forum.  You can cover yourself and say that it's only a default value on a setting, but we've already got sk89q who noticed that the setting isn't as easy to change as admins would like.  There once was a time when ball_speed was included in the default server.cfg but it doesn't look like it is anymore, who knows what ball_speed we're playing at these days...

In every other game I play these gameplay changes are tested by a panel of testers or a pre-release test build is available to test it out.  A heads up saying that the ball speed was changing and that the new changes were on the EV1 servers would've been enough so that a few of us could go check it out and see what we thought.

Blitz

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2008, 05:23:56 PM »

So, you complain when I make the ball speed too fast, I tweak it down a bit, and you complain some more.  Great.  I'm glad I have such a supportive community.

It is much less about the change, and much more about the way it was implemented.

b00nlander

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2008, 08:12:13 PM »
Those changes are probably for the best, but what's the reasoning behind it?  You've already backed the competitive community into a corner [...]

what competitive community? there are no competitions anymore, just a bunch of "clans" that tweak their "records" by matching some newbs in 2v2.  I do agree with your complaint, but not the reasoning. There is no true competitive community right now.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2008, 08:24:44 PM »
the competitive community IS the clan/matching community. whether you match/scrim someone on your level or not, you are still playing for the sake of your record, regardless if it is real or not.

webhead

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2008, 01:11:34 AM »
You've already backed the competitive community into a corner with the whole Feature Vote thread which is heavily dominated by non-competitive players.
umm ... "backed into a corner"? how?

besides, it's not jitspoe's fault if the feature vote is "heavily dominated by non-competitive players", now is it? who's to say the "competitive players" can't get in there and be a force of their own?
whether they do or not is their own choice.

Justinph5

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2008, 01:33:03 AM »
I understand that it wasn't implemented without asking or informing of the change before-hand, however most all games make subtle changes without telling their communities until after... I remember them always doing it in different Battlefield 2 maps and options... 

Don't go tearing away at Jitspoe just because he thought the community would like it because they didnt like a previous change of it...  If anything lets just call it a mistake and hope he informs us next time... Anyways any minor changes he makes to the game like that aren't going to kill you, it just means having to improve your game more, which is always a good thing...

Playah

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2008, 12:49:55 PM »
@boon: You are only thinking of that because you aren't that active. There have been several tourneys last year (unlike several years ago) which does mean that there is a competitive community.

@jits: Could you give us some further info about the topic?