Author Topic: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)  (Read 17991 times)

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2008, 04:00:57 PM »
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lekky

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2008, 04:14:08 PM »
I do believe most people who posted have been through the change of b19 to b20, which is the subject of this thread right?

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2008, 11:26:01 PM »
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jitspoe

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2008, 03:16:53 AM »
Reasoning aside, why should I be a slave to what other people's desire?  Part of making your own game is being able to do what you want with it, right?  Should I not have the freedom to make changes I think will make the game more enjoyable?

Now that that's out of the way:

Originally in Quake and Quake2, there was a maximum entity velocity that prohibited us from having normal velocities for paintballs.  In fact, the original paintballs were so slow that gravity had to be reduced for just the paintballs so they would travel any kind of distance.  Even with that, you still often had to run around with your crosshair pointed at the sky in order to be able to hit anybody.  Eventually, we discovered a way around the maximum velocity setting, and set the ball speed to what was calculated to be 300 feet per second (what we were informed was the typical velocity for a paintball gun).

I'm sure some of you have noticed, though, that the balls are a bit too fast.  You can pick people off clear across rather sizeable maps, shoot people that are on 20-story high structures, pin down players at distant chokepoints, etc.  Now that I'm getting more into real paintball, I see that real paintballs have nowhere near the range they do in the game.  I thought it was because of the air friction at first, but after revisiting the code, I noticed that the steel barrel upgrade resulted in velocities exceeding 400 fps, which is quite a bit higher than the absolute maximum legal limit for paintball velocities (300 fps), and higher yet than what most fields allow (~280fps).

I realize this isn't a simulation, but based on some of the complaints about the fast ball speed and some of my own experiences in the game, I felt it would be better to tone it down some.  I tweaked it just a little so it wouldn't be a drastic change that would require a lot of adjustment, and I'll probably continue to tweak it in small increments over a period of time.

Between leaving my old job, packing my stuff up and making plans to move to California, finding out I wasn't going to be moving to California after all, calling everything off, Christmas, just wanting get Build 20 released, and the server crashing exploit fiasco, I'm sorry I didn't give this the attention it deserved, because it obviously should have been one of my top priorities.  Heaven forbid I touch a line of code or adjust a variable without the almighty community's approval, especially with the salary they're paying me.

Why do I waste my time explaining myself time and time again?  Why do I continue to let certain individuals post on the forums when they rarely do anything but antagonize me?

S8NSSON

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2008, 07:51:11 AM »
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I noticed that the steel barrel upgrade resulted in velocities exceeding 400 fps, which is quite a bit higher than the absolute maximum legal limit for paintball velocities (300 fps), and higher yet than what most fields allow (~280fps).

Now that you're more into real paintball do you see how an upgrade barrel should have no impact on ball speed at all?

Nothing should effect ball speed. Ball speed is dialed in at the chrono before anyone goes out onto the field. $11 rig vs $3000 rig, they both better fire below the posted field FPS limit (285 usually from what i've seen).

Upgrade barrel & guns should only be about accuracy and consistency. There should really be an occasional "whiff" that happens emulating a ball break in the barrel and that takes three to five shots to fully recover from accuracy wise.

lekky

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2008, 08:12:23 AM »
Its not a sim :(

Justinph5

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2008, 08:43:11 AM »
^^ but different barrels do effect ball speed, sure in real life no ones going to switch barrels, and if they did it definitely wouldn't be ~100fps  LOL...   but whenever I switched to a new barrel of mine I'd had to re-chrono to lower my air...

but I also understand you s8nson, if it were to be technical, rules are that all speeds are chrono'd to be exactly the same and can't be turned up with anything, and the only way to do it in game is to make variables like barrels not effects speeds...

KiLo

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2008, 08:49:17 AM »
I thought ingame that barrels just affected accuracy and not speed.

S8NSSON

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2008, 08:56:47 AM »
^^ but different barrels do effect ball speed, sure in real life no ones going to switch barrels, and if they did it definitely wouldn't be ~100fps  LOL...   but whenever I switched to a new barrel of mine I'd had to re-chrono to lower my air...

but I also understand you s8nson, if it were to be technical, rules are that all speeds are chrono'd to be exactly the same and can't be turned up with anything, and the only way to do it in game is to make variables like barrels not effects speeds...

Yes...by investing in a sweet barrel you do two things; 1) You save air because your ball traverses the barrel with less friction. Being that you have to chrono down that increase in velocity the end result is a savings in air. 2) You gain accuracy.

I know it's not a SIM, but for something like shooting you have to have a mark to go off of.
There is no reason, being that it IS a paintball game, after all, that you shouldn't try to closely model shooting more closely to real life.

I guess this actually becomes a feature vote kind of thing, which I don't care to be involved in.
But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.

KnacK

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2008, 08:59:56 AM »
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But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.

Exactly - thank you.

Herron

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2008, 12:48:20 PM »
But I do think all velocities should be equal and only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by upgrades.

I agree that only ball breakage, accuracy, and co2 usage should be affected by barrel upgrades.  Personally though, I like the added dynamic of different guns firing with different distances and arcs; realism be darned.  If ball velocity were to be wholly gun-dependent (i.e., take out the speed multiplier of barrels), I think it would still preserve much of the style of gameplay that many of us enjoy.  Alterations to ball velocities for all of the weapons is fine if that's what jitspoe wants to do, but I'd prefer if they're changed by a percentage across the board (which I guess is essentially what he did here by altering only the multiplier effect of the barrels and default ball speed -- i'm assuming the arc/distance for each gun is altered by a gun-specific multiplier?).

S8NSSON

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2008, 01:13:33 PM »
I would imagine the arc of the ball works off of some sort of projectile motion formula in which case velocity would effect arc.

An idea is:
1) 285 constant FPS no matter what setup is used.
2) Random ball breakage that begins with an initial ball whiff (the break), and requires a few shots through the gun to clear the paint coating in the barrel and gun caused by the breakage (the clearing shots would fire at an initial lower velocity gradually raising back up to 285 FPS as the breakage clears). Better equipment lessons the chance of breakage occurrence AND lessens the number of "clearing" shots required to clear the breakage back to normal firing.
3) A deviation from center and random direction variable. Center being the natural arc a perfect 285 FPS shot would take under perfect, in a vacuum, conditions.
4) A Item_co2_usage variable and multiplier that causes lesser gear to utilize co2 less efficiently.


WAIT...then then then....

We could allow a player to set a boost on their gun before a round that would allow the gun to fire at, say, 320 FPS. Of course this would ramp up the probability of a breakage also.

STAY WITH ME NOW...

THEN you can allow player to "Challenge" another players air and have them ejected from the the next couple rounds if it's above 285. BUT if it's legal then the accuser gets ejected for a couple rounds.

ok never mind about that...but the other stuff above is cool!

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2008, 02:04:18 PM »
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jitspoe

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2008, 02:49:18 PM »
I don't like the idea of chops and barrel breaks - those are annoying in real life and would be annoying in the game, too.  Imagine losing a match because the ball broke in your barrel when you had the perfect shot and should have easily won the round.

Fyre

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2008, 04:20:44 PM »
3. FPS Jumping was taken out for some reason and I'm pretty sure there's some other jumping issues that were changed that jitspoe isn't mentioning. (Not sure of FPS jumping was talked about or not, I just remember being able to do it then not being able to do it instantly.)

FPS jumping stopped after build 9. According to jitspoe, the higher fps actually made you not jump as high or some excrement like that.


qu:90; <PBCup^Pierce> i hope pbcup is still alive in 40 years <PBCup^Pierce> dp would be on like alpha300 <PBCup^Pierce> with banana hover crafts

DirtyTaco actually said that on April 5th 2006, way before he had a problem with you jitspoe if I recall correctly. For you to ban him for an idea he had a long time ago is absurd.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2008, 05:05:47 PM »
I don't like the idea of chops and barrel breaks - those are annoying in real life and would be annoying in the game, too.  Imagine losing a match because the ball broke in your barrel when you had the perfect shot and should have easily won the round.

wouldn't that be more like real life? IMO i think that would make the game more interesting and unpredictable.

lekky

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2008, 06:45:05 PM »
This isn't a sim, spare a thought to those of use who have no interest in real paintball...

Xile

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2008, 07:42:17 PM »
jits coded the game. hes spent MANY hours slaving over code for you all, and when he does the slightest little thing. you all freak out. the amount of involvement you have to begin with is 98% more then any other game out there. so stop whining and accept the fact that you're not the person coding the game. if you have such a huge problem, go code your own paintball game and see how well you do. Obviously all the whiners know whats best and can make a better game. So go ahead. Jit's has no obligation to tell you anything. I can see the process ceasing soon enough because of all this. I'm surprised jits hasn't just said here.. final version. I'm done updating, this is it. He probably could have done that builds and builds ago, moved onto something else. A better engine, or whatever. But he didn't. So respect his decisions because you're all lucky you have as much say as you do in the first place. And if you READ the change log before you ran the game like you're supposed to. Then you would know about it. That's what it's for. If you don't like what he did. Be like anyone else in any other game and run build19 or 18 or whatever on your server. Enough said. Good night.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2008, 04:24:52 AM »
This isn't a sim, spare a thought to those of use who have no interest in real paintball...

ok so why drop the FPS of the guns? why not just leave it where it was? why even compare the FPS to real life paintball?

all i said was it would be more interesting and unpredictable. why would it matter if the player has or has never played paintball in real life? or interest.

coLa

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Re: Changes without the communities consent? (Again.)
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2008, 04:28:46 AM »
jits coded the game. hes spent MANY hours slaving over code for you all, and when he does the slightest little thing. you all freak out. the amount of involvement you have to begin with is 98% more then any other game out there. so stop whining and accept the fact that you're not the person coding the game. if you have such a huge problem, go code your own paintball game and see how well you do. Obviously all the whiners know whats best and can make a better game. So go ahead. Jit's has no obligation to tell you anything. I can see the process ceasing soon enough because of all this. I'm surprised jits hasn't just said here.. final version. I'm done updating, this is it. He probably could have done that builds and builds ago, moved onto something else. A better engine, or whatever. But he didn't. So respect his decisions because you're all lucky you have as much say as you do in the first place. And if you READ the change log before you ran the game like you're supposed to. Then you would know about it. That's what it's for. If you don't like what he did. Be like anyone else in any other game and run build19 or 18 or whatever on your server. Enough said. Good night.

i understand that it's his game, in fact i am sure we all get the picture. but what good is a community if they are unhappy with changes made to the game they have come to love, with out knowledge of it? you can't have a game without a community to play it. maybe the message was relayed poorly, but i think all this was about is for jitspoe to let us(the community) know of changes he has made. a simple thread saying i changed this, this, and this, would have done just fine. but hey, it's his game his rules.