Author Topic: lol recession.  (Read 19824 times)

MaDMaN

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2008, 06:48:40 AM »
With the president talk... We need Bill Clinton back.. but thats my opinion.

flip

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2008, 09:36:27 AM »
Here let's try this. Imagine. You're an 8 year old kid. One day as your sitting home with mom you realize that daddy is not coming home after work. The next day daddy still hasn't come home. You go on with your life never knowing why daddy didn't come home. Fast forward a few years. You are now a grown man. You marry the love of your life and have three wonderful kids. One day your wife is out visiting her parents. You come home wondering why she has not made it home. Your kids are crying and screaming for mommy but she never comes home. Years pass and your children are all grown up. As you sit thinking about the good times in your life you here from your neighbor that all of your kids have been rounded up by the "police". Try as you might no one will tell you anything. As you start to die of natural causes the only thing you can think about on your death bed is "what ever happened to all the people in my life I cared about?"  If you think the war was just about oil I would ask you to maybe read up on the history of Iraq. Also I would trade my memories for yours. I was standing in a small town in this country when an old lady walked up to me and motioned for me to follow her. Luckily I had one of my Arabic linguist with me. He was trying to find out what she wanted but all she would say is that she had to show us something. Reluctantly I grabbed a few of my soldiers and off we went. She led us to what seemed like a barren area of dirt right on the side of the town. As we stood watching she began to dig. Other locals soon began coming over and helping. After just a little while but to us seemed an eternity one of the guys started yelling. Looking at my linguist he translated for me. "He says he's found one sarge" As we continued to look on a body was brought forth from the ground. It was a slightly decomposed body of a young man. We stood horrified as other bodies were brought out. There was altogether a little over a hundred. After contacting my C.O. and having the site cornered off we sat down to talk to a few of the people. They told us these were family members of people in the town who had been tortured and killed a few months prior. They knew all along where they were buried but were to afraid to retrieve their loved ones until we arrived. They spent the next couple of weeks thanking every allied group who came through their town   no matter if it was American, British or anyone of the numerous small countries who lent a hand in the demolition of the the dictatorship. I would highly suggest some of you youngsters who have your mind set in ways to open it and think of how you would feel in their shoes. I'm sick and tired of people complaining about the war. It was something the leaders of several governments decided on after the U.S. took the lead so deal with it. You don't have to agree with it but at least do something like 1) support your government and the troops who were/are there. 2)Be proactive in elections to place someone you like in the position of authority so you can't complain when they have to make the same kind of decision.

magalhaes

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2008, 09:58:44 AM »
To start lets please stop with that youngsters thing! As I see this there are youngsters much better informed about this matter than the 'olders'. Besides all the youngsters here have already listen opinions of people much older and with a much better knowledge in this matter than the olders we have over here.

What your country is trying (at least they say so) is to protect your freedom and if possible give freedom to all that people in iraq etc. Now when you guys post about how we shouldnt complain about our, or others government..guys thats taking away the freedom you fight so much to get.
Even if I voted on someone and that someone won, I have the right to criticize that someone.
And when some ugly dumb person says he's invading iraq because they have massive destruction weapons, even when the UN tell him not to, and afterall there was not even 1 of those in the all country...boy I'm gonna criticize him a lot either you like it or not.
But right now I'm more worried about my country policys so I'll just let you guys keep this discussion. Sorry but sometimes I can't hold myself and I have to post responding to opinions regarding important matters that I don't agree with.

Now, let's play some DigitalPaint:Paintball2  =]

flip

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2008, 10:10:06 AM »
Lol The term youngster is a term of affection around here. sorry if that bothers you. As far as knowing more than the olders you apparently do not. The "war" was not started over him having WMD. It was simply due to two reasons. 1) He did not up hold to his end of the terms of search laid down by the U.N. ... not the U.S.   2) The general homicide of innocent people at an alarming rate by him and his. You do have the right to do w/e you want. By all means do it. Also just to throw one more thing out there.... since you know so much more on the policies then people who have been there done that, The U.S. doesn't do things like this solely for OUR freedom. It's for the freedom of all nations big or small.

hauke

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2008, 10:26:54 AM »
Lol The term youngster is a term of affection around here. sorry if that bothers you. As far as knowing more than the olders you apparently do not. The "war" was not started over him having WMD. It was simply due to two reasons. 1) He did not up hold to his end of the terms of search laid down by the U.N. ... not the U.S.   2) The general homicide of innocent people at an alarming rate by him and his. You do have the right to do w/e you want. By all means do it. Also just to throw one more thing out there.... since you know so much more on the policies then people who have been there done that, The U.S. doesn't do things like this solely for OUR freedom. It's for the freedom of all nations big or small.

Yea, thats the ignorant and arogant policity of the USA we all love. The only way to life is the American way..

magalhaes

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2008, 10:39:35 AM »
The term youngster might have been a term of affection this time but the term kids you and others used in other and in this thread were not a term of affection so please dont be hipocryt because i dont wish to start an argument about this stupid little things.
Flip, it's lovely your faith and believe on the people who rule your country.
To be honest I was ashamed when my country showed his support for your invasion as well as spain and england. Luckily the people in these countris are not as conformist so the leaders of these 3 countries are not the same( Thank god!).
Flip as I'm sure you know, because I do and I'm a kid, Iraq let UN do the search at first and they did and they found nothing. Then the UN asked to search again and they denied. The UN was trying to resolve the matter and thats why they asked for US not to invade (They didnt want US to invade Iraq as you are trying to make it look).
I'm trying to be the most correct as possible but you are showing some extremist positions that I don't agree with.

blaa

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2008, 10:49:33 AM »
 How about the americans were to join the Kyoto protocol and save the world instead of trying to bring democracy to iraq.

blaa

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2008, 10:50:57 AM »
i agree to disagree
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 01:34:51 PM by blaa »

sk89q

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2008, 11:09:36 AM »
First off,  The US started the war. The UN was reluctant to, as they didn't really see that Iraq's violations of the UN sanctions were important enough to invade the country.

Second, although you saw death first-hand, from a logical point of view, most people found that the homicide wasn't that bad comparing to what could happen. Bush senior didn't invade Iraq because excrement would hit the fan, and the result unrest would be even much more troublesome. Many analysts agree that Saddam did a good job of keeping the region from exploding.

Quote from: George H. W. Bush
While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

As you see, he was completely cognizant of what would happen if we entered. Now we have a problem on our hands that we will likely be unable to fix. The tension is due to long standing emotional feelings, and war can never improve feelings. It only worsens them. Even as the US invaded, Saddam saw internal unrest as the top threat.

Also, flip, no we don't. Read up on all the dictatorships that we have funded.

KnacK

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2008, 11:15:56 AM »
OK Time Out....

You goys can continue posting your views in a civilized manor but please no personal flaming. ( It hasn't gotten there yet, I just want to nip it in the bud now)

Also, please remember that there are a lot of viewpoints out there and there are a lot of people that no matter what is said, it will not change their position on the subject. Going back and forth restating the same thing gets old.

This is going to be " Lets' all agree to disagree" threads.

Just please respect each other.

flip

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2008, 01:46:06 PM »
yes and yes
i know all about the dictatorships we have funded. i.e. saddam. The statement was used as in the U.S. does not invade someone for the simple fact of keeping OUR freedom. In light of funding dictators it is to maybe keep someone stable in power who we hope will not go crazy with it i.e. saddam. I agree with bush Sr. not invading Iraq. But ... I also agree after what I personally saw that it was time to intervene. As for the searching of buildings and such for WMD's you are wrong. Sorry but you are. It was not a one time thing. It was a continuous check system. He failed to comply with certain things such as not barring the inspectors from entering certain facilities and what not. But hey ... I was just a lead analyst during the time. What do I know. I bow down to all the people who get their information from the newspapers and media.

P.S. Youngster is a general term for anyone maybe younger than some old man.  But if you read up I didn't call you a youngster. I generalized. Then after generalizing I appoligized. Maybe you just have a problem with me who knows? who cares?

sk89q

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2008, 04:14:02 PM »
Saddam wasn't unpredictable. And I personally don't care what you saw. So people die, many in gruesome ways. The world knew about these atrocities, but they also knew it was nothing compared to what would result if a 3rd power tried to take over the region. Saddam did what he did to keep the region in check. When you're working with policies, I wouldn't let your personal emotions get into it.

Second, how was I wrong? I didn't say that Saddam didn't violate UN's orders many times over the course of years, did I? I said that even if Saddam did, most nations did not perceive it as a sufficient threat. Frankly, not everyone really believed that Saddam had WMDs, and indeed this was true, as the Iraqi war has pointed out. If you look into the matter deeply, it is perfectly reasonable why he would buff that he had WMDs, and any good analyst would have considered that viewpoint.

Third, what is with you and the media? The media is obviously biased, but that is not to say that there are not real analysts putting out their real valid opinions. There are also varying levels of bias with different news outlets. NPR isn't that bad, you know. Regardless, what credentials do you have that you can verify to me that makes your opinion oh so more useful? Lead analyst? You could be pulling that out of your butt. And even if you are a lead analyst, there is nothing stopping you from being wrong because this isn't a black and white issue. You appear to be pretty biased anyway. All you have done is shown that Saddam was a bad person, not that the war was inherently justified. Nothing has come out of the Iraqi war. The governments we have tried to set up have been entirely worthless. The region does not look like it intends to settle down any time soon. Hatred towards America seems to have grown.

The only reasonable point brought up has been S8N's, saying that indeed we have had no attack. However, who is to say that that was because of the invasion, because terrorists can be harbored in other places beside Iraq. I suspect that our better border security may be the reason for the lack of attacks. It is not like they cannot try to attack right now, but since we have improved our border security, their chance for failure has increased significantly even if we have not patched up all the holes (meaning if they fail, a great negative PR wave will befall on them, and America will have won). But whatever, S8N's point is still up to debate. He could be right, he could be wrong.

Anyway, that's my 2c. The primary elections will be upon us soon, and we'll see what will happen then.

Edgecrusher

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2008, 01:57:16 AM »
1. fl1p - I assure you, you don't wont my memories

2. Maybe you should learn some history - as I said read Century of war by William Endghal

3. Where was glorious USA country when we had Srebrenica, Ovcara and other mass murder places? Oh, I remember, NATO + Russia were to busy on putting weapon embargo on us and helping Milosevic - true, Serbia is a bigger country which had 3rd largest military in Europe in the 90's - that means more weapon to be sold - Usa&Friends wanted war here for economic reasons, so you really think there is some greater reason for USA to be in Iraq? This is not a holoy war, a just war, this is simple what every war is. Fight for economic power. Don't you forget that.

How about the americans were to join the Kyoto protocol and save the world instead of trying to bring democracy to iraq.

Well said. But they wont ever sign that protocol. Would harm industry to much in meaning that if the protocol would be signed, big industry would have to invest to reduce the poison they put up in the atmosphere, God forbid. That's just non economic.

blaa

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2008, 06:38:07 AM »
 True. I love how the administration claims that there is nothing wrong with USAs pollution. And then they block chinese cars, because they pollute the environment too much. But, the chinese cars create pollution already less than the american cars, and the chinese work to get the demands even lower.

Watch "The inconvienient truth" - quite good move. I understand its made by the opponent of the current president and reflects views of the 1 side, but the facts there are pretty impressive.

flip

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2008, 09:31:25 AM »
Just to end this I will tell you to read up where I had posted earlier saying that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Does it really matter what anyone thinks? You can have your own views but they don't mean squat unless your willing to act on them and make a difference.

DaRkNeSS

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2008, 01:13:16 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter how wrong you are. (blaa, edgecrusher, sk89, eiii, etc)

You were warned - see ya in a week.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 01:49:52 PM by KnacK »

KnacK

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2008, 01:50:53 PM »
One more and this thread goes bye-bye

Spook

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2008, 03:05:02 PM »
It should already be locked. We got people from other countries trying to wiggle their way into the way our country is run to make us seem worse then we actually are.

magalhaes

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2008, 03:31:12 PM »
It should already be locked. We got people from other countries trying to wiggle their way into the way our country is run to make us seem worse then we actually are.
That was not our point at all..
I wish you and darkness would give some of your arguments too instead of just saying "wow euros cant comment on my country!! i dont have nothing to say but they cant say anything either!!!!"
I think the discussion is over now and I have to say that it went very well in my opinion without any personal attacks besides the last 2 (but those are usuals.)

Quote
Youngster is a general term for anyone maybe younger than some old man.  But if you read up I didn't call you a youngster. I generalized. Then after generalizing I appoligized. Maybe you just have a problem with me who knows? who cares?
No problem with you at all. I thought that if after my post you start talking about the 'youngsters' it would include me, my bad. No hard feelings.

sk89q

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Re: lol recession.
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2008, 03:53:50 PM »
β€œThe price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
               
                     β€” Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826)