Make ban times consistent

[m7feettall]

Punkbuster  was not a bad example  for the intended purpose. It shows that others think perma bans are GOOD for cheaters.

Your evasion example missed the point. Whether or not you evade a perma ban you deserve one if you cheat.

[jitspoe]

Let me throw out a few scenarios:

- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school.  One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2.  One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people.  Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game.  You tested the modifications online.

Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?

[y00tz]

Should you be perm-banned from the game for all of these?

Hell yeah, if someone manages to pull off all of those, especially at the same time...

[atmays]

Let me throw out a few scenarios:

- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school.  One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2.  One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.was a
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people.  Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game.  You tested the modifications online.

Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?

Well thats why it will always be hacking in this game. You are allowed to do to much. I say if you want to mod something, get permission from jitspoe. As far as i know you cant modify things in other games as easy as you can here. As far as you playing paintball in public or whatever, it should be login specific bans but that could oppose a problem cause you can easily not login and enter as newbie. Thats why we should make it mandatory to login. AA do it. Get more strict on multi accounts. Try to implement PunkBuster on top of jitspoe weekly checks.

I say the percentage of hackers discovered, is more like 2%. If you already was caught for hacking then you shouldn't be re-punished. Like double jeopardy. People do make mistakes so before you can be banned for forever for hacking i say should tighten up on the things you can do in/with the game first.

[y00tz]

I say if you want to mod something, get permission from jitspoe.

Closing the game source and restricting media modding would be the worst thing for this game... it's in nobody's best interest to require permission from Jitspoe to mod the game.

Try to implement PunkBuster on top of jitspoe weekly checks.

You're footing the billl right?  Nonetheless, I've heard from a very reliable source that PunkBuster isn't operable with the Q2 and Half-Life engines.

[atmays]

Closing the game source and restricting media modding would be the worst thing for this game... it's in nobody's best interest to require permission from Jitspoe to mod the game.

It would help prevent people form cheating. I think it should be like a team like yootz, zorch, xbain and other good developers of content. Dedicated to textures and other things. Like if someone come up with textures outside of that circle than If its a good decision then its brought in. It wont stop anything as far as developing. It will cut down on the hackers.

You're footing the Bill right?  Nonetheless, I've heard from a very reliable source that PunkBuster isn't operable with the Q2 and Half-Life engines.

I didn't know that.

Is it possible for paintball to move to quake3 engine and still have double jumping and such?

Would this change still leave DP2 as a standalone?

How bout jits start packing all textures and files in a .pak file and make it where its passworded or something like when it goes to check it can see exact size of pack file to see if its been changed(prob wont work just a suggestion, I'm no developer), But for that to work we would need a set texture pack. If people want to create textures and try them out then make like a sub directory so they can place them in there, and the textures only show up on they private server. It could work with other files to.

It might work, it might not work. Like i said I'm no developer.

Basically I'm saying at this time and stage of DP 1000 day bans is not a good idea for every situation. So I think we should start making more major changes. I'm tired of seeing a minor change here and there. The biggest change we have had was the global login. The feature votes got good things but no ones thinking big enough. We need to start making bigger steps to build up the community.Just my opinions don't quote me on it.

[webhead]

that's because such large-scale changes take a lot more coding/research/time, for the most part.

[KnacK]

Let me throw out a few scenarios:

- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school.  One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2.  One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people.  Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game.  You tested the modifications online.

Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?

Jitspoe,

Right now, with the attitudes of some in this community that will STILL try whatever they can to cheat, I say yes.

WIth only one exception of a developer having a cheat to work on detecting of said cheat.

Maybe if some were made examples of, there wouldn't be so much whining about being banned.

With that being said, if I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting.

[atmays]

that's because such large-scale changes take a lot more coding/research/time, for the most part.

Wouldn't it be worth it?

[jitspoe]

I can only think of a couple players offhand that continued to try cheating after serving their first ban period.  I believe there are more players who were caught once, realized it wasn't tolerated, and continued to play cheat free.

[KnacK]

I can only think of a couple players offhand that continued to try cheating after serving their first ban period.  I believe there are more players who were caught once, realized it wasn't tolerated, and continued to play cheat free.

I really really really hope that is the rule vs the exception.

[m7feettall]

Let me throw out a few scenarios:

- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school.  One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2.  One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people.  Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game.  You tested the modifications online.

Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?

Jits,

The issue with me is not those who unknowingly cheated due to someone on a public computer, brother etc. messing with their system. My issue is with those who have hacked willingly.

Now here is the problem. You say you don't know of many who repeat. That may be because some have found undetectable means. Maybe not, ,maybe they went straight.

But even if  they did go straight a  permanent ban serves another purpose. As Knack said it is a deterrent to others.  If you know that folks who hacked previously were lifetime banned you would not want to take your chances. If they knew that it was not a 32 day wrist-slap but a permanent ending to their DP career then we might not have so many in the first place. Frankly for someone wanting a little edge why not try to see if you can get away with something if you only risk a minor censure and a 32 day break? Honesty prevents it with some. But certainly it does not for everyone.

As it is some are saying that as many as 50 percent in the community have had some association with hacking. Is that really what we want? We might as well say DP is not a fair game at all.

[jitspoe]

I'd say probably 90% of the people banned don't even know the global ban system exists.  Increasing the ban time wouldn't change that.

[webhead]

my personal opinion is 512 days for hacking and 1024 for ban evasion.

[loial21]

Ok, so it's just a game. So why are you caring about what happens?

Why are you posting?

You cant ban everyone for hacking with a lifetime. ruins the game, its community, and its fanbase...

  <<<----Triple take.

Actually you can, and it will survive. Where do you people get this notion from? Hmm? 


Cheating once, shame on you...

Cheating twice, shame on us...perm ban from every venue....period. Good bye! So Long! Far the well!.....

Period. End of problem..time for fun 

[m7feettall]

I'd say probably 90% of the people banned don't even know the global ban system exists.  Increasing the ban time wouldn't change that.

That is an objection that could be addressed.

1. They already should know
2. A simple educational measure could be implemented.

For all those who have a login they either know or do not know due to laziness:

We have a user agreement when creating a login. Each element must be signed off on. This is the first:

Do Not Cheat
Cheating includes, but is not limited to:
- Modifying textures or other content to make players more identifiable
- Using external programs, hacked drivers, modified game executables, etc. to make players more visible or be seen where it should not be possible to see them (in other words, wallhacks).
- Using programs or modifications that adjust your movement and aim, such as speedhacks and aimbots.
Cheating is not tolerated and will result in a global ban from all publicly listed Paintball 2 servers.

When you install the game the first thing you encounter in the license agreement is on cheating:

DO NOT CHEAT

Plain and simple.  By installing, using, or owning Paintball2, you agree not to use any cheats or modify the game content in order to gain an unfair advantage while playing against human opponents.  Doing so will result in banishment from public servers, disqualification from competitions, and/or legal prosecution.  You are also responsible for other players on your computer and/or network.  We will not lift a ban simply because somebody else was cheating on your connection.

There is also the likelihood that they suspect some repercussions but are not familiar with the global ban system as such.

Looking at the current bans, several of those folks likely did know quite well  about it:

DaRkNeSS
iEATnoobs
KiLo
MaDMaN
dew


The 10 percent you reference that you estimate are familiar with it (do you ever ask folks when banned?)  likely are the more skilled players who would turn to cheats for that extra edge. Because they don't suspect it would cost them much if they get caught they have little reason not to.

Then there are those skilled players who are just bored, etc. and want some fun. Some of the recent distribution folks may fall into that category.

If Kilo, etc. had known that a 1k day ban was a possibility, would they have still done it? I am not sure. But I doubt as many would.

Now that a few have gotten the 1k day ban I imagine we see a much lower incidence of distribution among those in the community who do know better. The risk level is now beyond what they are comfortable with unless they really do just want to leave the game with a bang.

Doing the same for the "edge" seeking folks would be beneficial. Those just wanting some improvement to stay competitive are not going to want to risk a lifetime ban instead of just a 32 day one.

Now if you are still worried that some folks do not know then make build 22 with a big notice that pops up when you install that says in 45 point font :

Cheating will result in a lifetime ban from the game.

Then no one can say they were not warned, and you would have your deterrent.

You could also have in small text below the main menu (Cheating will result in a permanent ban).

[WarWulf]

heh knack is going to hate me for this ^^

in real life......

people are given a chance or three and\or time in prison. depending on the amount of broken laws and the magnitude of the crime and on a judge's background and\or lifestyle or jury of peers etc. etc. etc..........

-------

some people reform, some don't, that just means you have to be more harsh with that person next time.

[m7feettall]

heh knack is going to hate me for this ^^

in real life......

people are given a chance or three and\or time in prison. depending on the amount of broken laws and the magnitude of the crime and on a judge's background and\or lifestyle or jury of peers etc. etc. etc..........

-------

some people reform, some don't, that just means you have to be more harsh with that person next time.

Losing rights to a video game is not the same as going to jail, etc.

Since you seem to want a real-life example a closer one may be  a relationship to an employer. A job is not a right as is your right to protection from undue punishment etc. You are retained as an employee based on certain criteria. Most times if you are doing your job your fine. But some things can get you fired quite quickly. 

Most jobs have some zero-tolerance policies. You agree to follow the guidelines.. If you do not  you are fired.  The zero-tolerance policy is there to re-enforce the idea that the employer believes this issue is VERY important and to discourage non-compliance.

A zero-tolerance policy on hacking would have the same effect. Put it in BIG letters when folks sign up. Let them know that cheating is not just an "oh well" issue.

[b00nlander]

Let me throw out a few scenarios:

- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school.  One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2.  One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people.  Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game.  You tested the modifications online.

Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?

I still have not understood why anyone should be perm-banned for cheating at this.  It's not like they are reducing other players' fun, except for the very few who actually care about match records and whine every time they lose. If I play and there's someone with a wallhack or aimbot, he'll kill me a bit more often than he would without, so.. who cares? It's still a game.  I'm not saying cheaters should not be punished, but anything over a month (32 days) is too much in my eyes.

[KnacK]

* KnacK runs over WW's tail with his high speed carbon fiber wheel chair......