Make ban times consistent

[m7feettall]

I still have not understood why anyone should be perm-banned for cheating at this.  It's not like they are reducing other players' fun, except for the very few who actually care about match records and whine every time they lose. If I play and there's someone with a wallhack or aimbot, he'll kill me a bit more often than he would without, so.. who cares? It's still a game.  I'm not saying cheaters should not be punished, but anything over a month (32 days) is too much in my eyes.

You don't have to obsess about records to still desire a cheat-free environment. Perhaps competition is not as big of a driving force for you as it is others. But while my clan doesn't even keep records as a training clan (we often lose), I still want to know that if i was beat it was because of the person's skill and not because of their using a cheat.

[WarWulf]

* KnacK runs over WW's tail with his high speed carbon fiber wheel chair......

bah watch where you are going old timer! * grabs the cut off part and has the asian lady down the street to sew it back together*

[Henkka]

I still want to know that if i was beat it was because of the person's skill and not because of their using a cheat.

You'll find out that if he gets banned. What does that have to do with ban time?

[Fyre]

Why are you posting?

At least people can read and understand what I'm trying to say.

[m7feettall]

You'll find out that if he gets banned. What does that have to do with ban time?

Because the whole point of banning is that it prevents cheating. Cheating negatively impacts the game. It is not as though folks are dumb enough not to know that. But it is their only defense when cheating to go on and on defending it as no big deal.

[m7feettall]

this m7 kid needs to be stopped before he hurts himself.

Stopped what? Giving my opinion?

The cheaters need to be stopped because they are hurting the game. And since you are a previous cheater who has already said you have no remorse for what you did I expect nothing more from you than what you are giving--excuses.

[FlaMe]

i see no excuses... nt champ =\

[m7feettall]

i see no excuses... nt champ =\

You don't? You don't see the "everyone does it, you would ban half the community " excuse?

You don't see the "why don't you just leave if you don't like it" excuse?

You don't see the excuse that not everyone knows about the ban system (though everyone who downloaded the game and set up a login were notified of it).


You must not be paying attention.

This thread has  nothing BUT excuses for why people should be allowed to hack without fear of long ban times.

[FlaMe]

Those arent excuses... more or less facts.

[m7feettall]

children ... please ...

Please state why you think we are acting like children?

I am debating the merits of long ban times. That is within the rules of this forum. Addressing counter-arguments is not childish.

[m7feettall]

Those arent excuses... more or less facts.

A. You have not yet shown that half the community does it. It is not a fact. Nor would it matter even if they did. Half of the population doing something wrong does not make it right. Therefore you are using this as an excuse to get us not to pursue longer ban times. If that is not your intention in citing the so called fact then what is your intention?

B. The "why dont' you leave" excuse is just that. It certainly isn't a fact as it is a suggestion, not a statement. It is just your way of saying you could care less about cheating--ie you are excusing it. Anyone who doesn't share your carefree attitude about cheating should move on. That is an excuse.

C. The not everyone knowing is not a fact either as they have had opportunity to know. If there is not enough opportunity then that can be addressed through practical steps.  So again it is NOT a reason to not pursue long ban times.

A reason to not pursue long ban times that would NOT be an excuse is one based around an ethical argument discussing the moral ramifications.  Deranged attempted this. You started to before offering all these excuses. But since no one can provide a great ethical reason why removing rights to a video game is a an in-humane, horrendous punishment we are left to  the same old excuses.

Another possible objection, attempted by Jits, is a practical one. But if it can be overcome then the objection is no reason not to follow the longer ban times.


It all comes down to this--people AGREED not to hack. If they do hack they have no excuse and no reason to whine if they are removed from the game.

[FlaMe]

A. You have not yet shown that half the community does it. It is not a fact. Nor would it matter even if they did. Half of the population doing something wrong does not make it right. Therefore you are using this as an excuse to get us not to pursue longer ban times. If that is not your intention in citing the so called fact then what is your intention?

I'm almost positive at least 2 members from every good DP clan have been caught hacking in the past... believe it...

B. The "why dont' you leave" excuse is just that. It certainly isn't a fact as it is a proposition, not a statement. It is just your way of saying you could care less about cheating--ie you are excusing it.

Im not excusing cheating... merely stating that you should not be perm banned for using a penix wallhack once, nor changing a paint texture, nor speeding across a map a few times... idk what youre getting at.

C. The not everyone knowing is not a fact either as they have had opportunity to know. If there is not enough opportunity then that can be addressed through practical steps.  So again it is NOT a reason to not pursue long ban times.

rephrase that? the not everyone... def wrong dont even argue that in your next post i have no idea what youre trying to even say there

A reason to not pursue long ban times that would NOT be an excuse is one based around an ethical or utilitarian argument discussing the moral ramifications.  Deranged attempted this. You started to before offering all these excuses.

I still dont know what excuses youre referring to nor what you think im excusing...

...you wont win this argument =(

[m7feettall]

I'm almost positive at least 2 members from every good DP clan have been caught hacking in the past... believe it...

That is not half the community. Even if we take your figures there are more than two people in each clan. And there are more clans than just the good ones. And there are many people not even in clans.


And WHY would that mean we should not punish them with long ban times?


I wrote up a response to all of it, but lets start here for now so that we don't just jump back and forth and not address the points in depth.   

Why should half of the community doing something (if it were half), mean we should not give out long ban times?

[Smokey]

Now if you are still worried that some folks do not know then make build 22 with a big notice that pops up when you install that says in 45 point font :

Cheating will result in a lifetime ban from the game.

Then no one can say they were not warned, and you would have your deterrent.

Okay, But how does some 10 year old from Brazil know that changing the jpg's for paintballs to be neon is cheating? He probably just wants to make it look cool. How does some kid changing his models to bevis and butthead know that its cheating? I mean, there are sites that you can download quake2 models on, they don't say its cheating.

Exactly.

[m7feettall]

Okay, But how does some 10 year old from Brazil know that changing the jpg's for paintballs to be neon is cheating? He probably just wants to make it look cool. How does some kid changing his models to bevis and butthead know that its cheating? I mean, there are sites that you can download quake2 models on, they don't say its cheating.

Exactly.

He can read the type below it that spells it out. That is all spelled out in the EULA. The big text would just get  their attention.

And if someone can figure out custom models they can probably read an agreement to know it is a problem.

Now, do you think most of the people hacking who are known skilled players in decent clans really didn't know?  Why should they NOT get long ban times?

[FlaMe]

m7 the ban system will not change. =(

[m7feettall]

m7 the ban system will not change. =(

That is not an answer to the question. WHY does it matter that 2 people from every good clan are banned? Why would that mean we should not give long ban times? If two people from every good clan are CHEATING then we are better off without them. There will be other good players for good clans.

Your statement that it will never change adds nothing of substance to the debate of whether they SHOULD change. I don't know whether they will change or not. We didn't have 1k day bans very often at all before. And now the committee decided to make it the regular penalty for distribution. So we have a precedent for a committee led change toward stiffer penalties.  Now the question is whether it SHOULD change.

You said that two people from every good clan cheated. So what? Why does that matter? Why does that mean we should not have long ban times? 

[FlaMe]

Youre kidding me if you dont think this game is HEAVILY reliant on its IRC community. the pub noobies and 30000 registered nicks are nothing without the 25 clans on IRC... many of which contain hackers or ex hackers. if the clan system on IRC died due to perma bans, the whole game would have no purpose.

No you can not argue this for I have nothing more to say about that... this game thrives off the IRC action, where everything is said... which youd know if you idled ANY channels or knew ANY players.

[m7feettall]

Youre kidding me if you dont think this game is HEAVILY reliant on its IRC community. the pub noobies and 30000 registered nicks are nothing without the 25 clans on IRC... many of which contain hackers or ex hackers. if the clan system on IRC died due to perma bans, the whole game would have no purpose.

No you can not argue this for I have nothing more to say about that... this game thrives off the IRC action, where everything is said... which youd know if you idled ANY channels or knew ANY players.

A. You just admitted I don't idle any channels. Yet I enjoy the game a lot, have my own clan, and play a number of scrims a week. So how is it that only IRC people matter? Obviously others who are not on IRC all the time enjoy the game and are part of the community.

B. I can get to know players in the game. I rarely see much going on in irc when I idle there other than a few arguments etc. I know the players in my own clan and we hang out on vent enjoying voice communication. So how am I missing out?

C. Two players from each clan will not kill the IRC community. It will just kill the HACKERS from the IRC community. And we would be better off without them.

You of course don't have to argue any more but I will decide if I choose to, thanks.

[FlaMe]

no problem bro... your points are just proving me right.

if 3 players from every clan got perma banned right now, do you know how many clans would just say screw dp and quit for better games?

what clans do you "scrim" that arent the ones I'm referring too other than "We Suck Less" and maybe some one day pub euro clans? that arent already on the ever so shameful "do not scrim list" omgz0rz

you dont "get to know people" in-game...

perma bans is a bad idea... get over it =(