Jitspoe on cheating

[m7feettall]

mewa: While the accusation was unjustified, I think just about anybody with good character would have kicked these players out of the clan or left the clan.  Homing bullet admitted to cheating in another game.  I wouldn't want to be associated with players that cheat in any game.

But then why do you keep releasing known cheaters back into the game to play along side us?  You are DIRECTLY associated with them because you enable them.

According to some reports there are few clans left that you COULD be in for your own game, because there are so many cheaters out there.

You know that players who have been in the community for a long time keep taking a chance on cheating. Why? Because the worst they will get is a month off. And at best they don't get caught and they get an edge. As long as you continue the soft policy against actual cheaters this will continue. The 1k day ban on distribution was a GOOD step.  It should be followed by a similar step against actual cheating.

[Cameron]

The 1k day ban on distribution was a GOOD step.  It should be followed by a similar step against actual cheating.

Yeh, it was but it only went to the people who had created or distributed hacks.  People who hacked only get a 32 for the first, then 64 and then so on.  Keep em out, its a cleaner game then.

[m7feettall]

Yeh, it was but it only went to the people who had created or distributed hacks.  People who hacked only get a 32 for the first, then 64 and then so on.  Keep em out, its a cleaner game then.

Exactly. Keep them out. Don't say you wouldn't be associated with them then throw them back when you catch them. 

And if you are concerned about people not knowing about the new policy then put an announcement on the start-up page of the next build.

Or for that matter just enforce the current messages on the login and installer.

[FlaMe]

m7 make a channel and come argue with me on IRC about why youre totally biased and need to get over the fact you shouldnt care so much about a game you hardly even play.

[m7feettall]

m7 make a channel and come argue with me on IRC about why youre totally biased and need to get over the fact you shouldnt care so much about a game you hardly even play.

No thanks. No need to discuss cheating penalties with a former cheater.

Incidentally I play nearly every day.

[capo]

m7 make a channel and come argue with me on IRC about why youre totally biased and need to get over the fact you shouldnt care so much about a game you hardly even play.

+1 lolz.

-1

[FlaMe]

lol. exactly. until youre gonna take someones opinion besides your own, nobody respects your opinion.

and pubbin OTB speed and Knack's 56k servers are not what id call "playing"

You're done.. No more flaming and get your facts correct.  See ya.

[m7feettall]

It has more to do with the fact that you hope to derail this thread as you did the previous with baseless insults.

I generally play GT pubs or in matches when I was in a clan.  I would also play on  the InT server which was kindly hosted by Knack. 

This thread is not about me, but about the cheating policy.  I have therefore reported your posts to the moderator for the off-topic insults. Enjoy your day.

[FlaMe]

..moderator, knack y00tz or jits?

yeah i doubt jitspoe will ban me from the forums for telling you that you need to accept others insight.

esp since this is like the 7th thread uve started about cheaters not getting 1k bans.

talk about "spamming your issue in multiple threads" <--- what i was last banned for by knack. kthnks.

once again get on IRC and lets talk. or are u afraid of an audience

[eMo]

RAR CAT FIGHT..
sorry.

I dislike hackers but se le vie. They are always going to be around.
M7 this is like your third thread on cheating we get the point and if jitspoe wants to do something about it he will with the commitee he doesn't need you poking him with a stick.

[capo]

RAR CAT FIGHT..
sorry.

I dislike hackers but se le vie. They are always going to be around.
M7 this is like your third thread on cheating we get the point and if jitspoe wants to do something about it he will with the committee he doesn't need you poking him with a stick.

I agree.
Every post I've seen you make is about extending the bantime on hackers.

[Bix]

I personally believe the ban time of certain cases should be decided by the committee.  It is very evident that both Want3d and HomingBullet knew they were using Aimbots. They understood they could get banned for cheating.

It isn't the fact they cheated, it is the fact they KNEW it, brought once again ANOTHER cheat to the game; they also decided to use it in a match many times, then DENY the fact using it.

Most hacking cases have to do with new players cheating on public servers with some old wallhack, not matching members of the community that know very much what they are doing wrong. This is why the committee should decided how long certain players should be banned.

[Cameron]

Most hacking cases have to do with new players cheating on public servers with some old wallhack, not matching members of the community that know very much what they are doing wrong.

Exactly.  People who hack and ARE in the community and have been around for a while should know better and get banned for longer.

[jitspoe]

There's a difference between being associated with somebody in a clan and somebody who just plays the game.  There are a number of people in the game who I wouldn't want to be associated with for various reasons, but I don't go around perm-banning them.  If I were their clan leader, though, I'd certainly kick them out.

I think you tend to define cheaters as people who have taken some kind of black and white, absolute, no-return path to pure evil and will never be good or contribute anything positive to the game ever again.  I don't see them the same way.  They're just players.  Some are skilled.  Some stink.  Some have contributed a lot to the game and community.  Others are jerks we'd be better off without.  The only thing that really sets them apart from other players is that at one point they decided to, for whatever reason, fire up a program, edit files, or do some other activity that potentially gave them an advantage over other players.  Sometimes the "cheating" is as simple as editing a jersey to add a clan tag, and it can go all the way up to deliberate attempts to defeat a more skilled clan in a match.  Whatever the case and player, most of them are smart enough to say, "Hey, I shouldn't do that again." once they get banned the first time around.

After that point, in practice, they're the same as any other player.  They have a different history, sure.  And some will be more inclined to cheat again, while others will be less inclined to cheat than somebody who hadn't cheated before.  So, really, I'm not releasing cheaters back into the game, but players that once tried cheating, and hopefully won't do it again.  If they do, that's why I have the exponential ban system.

Now, here's the other issue.  There's no magical "go away" button to get rid of a player.  I believe it's easier to turn a persistent player from his cheating ways than it is to remove him from the game completely.  Let's take a step into make believe land for a moment and pretend you got caught cheating but really enjoy the game and want to continue playing.  What's going to motivate you to be a positive member of the community:
a) "Be good, wait 32 days, and you can play again."
b) "You're not allowed to play anymore.  Ever again."

[coLa]

pretty sure all hackers know they are cheating. hacks just don't show up on your computer. (please spare me the "i was mowing the grass bullcrap")

if the standard hasn't been changed yet, why would it be changed now? the 1000+ days was for people creating and/or distributing hacks. there is no way you can compare people who only use them to that. keep the standard and hope someday these kids will grow up and get better on their own.

[m7feettall]

I personally believe the ban time of certain cases should be decided by the committee.  It is very evident that both Want3d and HomingBullet knew they were using Aimbots. They understood they could get banned for cheating.

It isn't the fact they cheated, it is the fact they KNEW it, brought once again ANOTHER cheat to the game; they also decided to use it in a match many times, then DENY the fact using it.

Most hacking cases have to do with new players cheating on public servers with some old wallhack, not matching members of the community that know very much what they are doing wrong. This is why the committee should decided how long certain players should be banned.

That would work.

[m7feettall]

Jits,  I actually do want to hear your take, and I will respond to it.


There are two aspects here:

1. How to reform a cheater to be a positive asset to the community.

2. How to prevent cheating in the first place through deterrent.

I get that you want to reform cheaters. And I wouldn't mind seeing  a system that tried to reach both goals.  But I don't see any thing in place right now to stop the  COMPETITIVE player who wants an edge from dabbling in the first place.

A system such as Bix suggested which reviewed circumstances would both allow for reform if warranted, and would deter those who know better.   But your system right now does not stress the  deterrent element, and the result is competitive players cheating.

I agree that a new player speed cheating has next to no real impact. He is caught in a few minutes, folks get a laugh, and life goes on. But a competitive player  by your current standards can get a MAX 32 day ban for cheating.  And those who have been around likely know those cheats that are not detected and will have cheated for some time before being caught.  32 days for those folks is not a  deterrent.

Are you going to find a system that has both aspects? 

I am sure you do see my statements as representative of a view that is very black and white. Some of my statements are, and I admit that.  But that is because the deterrent side is the bigger aspect to me, and I don't see that side being addressed. There is a lot of emphasis on reform, but not much on deterrent of those who should know better.

Now if you add the option of a 1k ban and let the committee decide what is warranted in each instance, I have no issue with that.  I am not out to crush a new player speed hacking. But I do want to see  experienced players who cheat to gain an edge gone.

[jitspoe]

Well, the matching types tend to be a pretty small percentage of the cheaters.  Most cheaters are new players who probably think everybody is cheating in order to fly around the map at 70mph.  I think getting exposed and having cheating on your record is more of a deterrent than the number of days you get banned.  I really don't know that londer ban times would have much of an impact at all.

[m7feettall]

Well, the matching types tend to be a pretty small percentage of the cheaters.  Most cheaters are new players who probably think everybody is cheating in order to fly around the map at 70mph.

And they could be given a light penalty from the committee. I would even favor a 15 day ban for them.

I think getting exposed and having cheating on your record is more of a deterrent than the number of days you get banned.  I really don't know that londer ban times would have much of an impact at all.

I don't agree with this assessment.

A. Most don't care at all that they were caught, and while some may rub it in, frankly some think it is great.

B. You claim it is a small number compared to the overall total. But that is not the issue. It is enough in the matching community that folks have to wonder whether those around them are cheating.  Add to that the fact that those in the clans who post here on the subject  have said it  is a fairly large group who have been involved with cheating in the clan scene. 

Either way enough are caught to show that it is a problem.  And there are more out there than get caught. Those who are around a while are more likely to find cheats that are not detected and to evade capture longer. But a strong enough deterrent may curb that.

C. If you don't think the number of days matter then why would you have a scale that goes up with each offense?  Why would you ban those who distribute for 1k days?  You clearly think that there is some point in it or you wouldn't do it in other cases.  If the point is not deterrent, what is it?  Folks see that 1k day ban  and they don't want to take the chance.

[coLa]

if the standard hasn't been changed yet, why would it be changed now? the 1000+ days was for people creating and/or distributing hacks. there is no way you can compare people who only use them to that. keep the standard and hope someday these kids will grow up and get better on their own.

you are trying to put hackers/cheats up there with creators and distributors. hacks have been around forever and a day and so has jitspoe's system to rid them from the community(atleast for a while). half the kids that get caught hacking don't visit the forums and don't know what the standard time is. i know other games handle cheaters in different ways. i've seen some that hand out perm bans for the first offense no matter what. jitspoe set the standard long ago. you've only been around a few months and already want to change what has been around since the beginning. i realize you are trying to do it for the better of the community, or are you infact trying to do it for yourself? i don't see many here siding with you. if i am wrong please forgive me. i think we all realize that 32 days is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. people see it as not enough time to justify not trying out a hack to see what it is or what it feels like. but what they don't realize is once they load the hack and get caught all hope to join a decent clan and have a decent rep has gone out the window. i believe the embarrassment and the increasing ban times are enough to prevent the smart people from doing it.