Author Topic: Rant on Recent Mapping Trends (Read 3878 times)

jitspoe · « **on:** August 03, 2009, 08:28:12 PM »

I just wanted to express my feelings on some trends I've seen in maps recently.

Super-fast trick jump paths, super-slow regular paths
The shortest paths should be accessible to all players. The new players who can't jump take long enough navigating the regular paths. Why should they be punished even further by not being allowed to take a paths that are half the distance? They're already being slaughtered by the more experienced players. This will just add more frustration and does not help the community grow.

Does your map really need 4+ flags?
At first, it was a crutch to get around base designs that were too easy to defend. Now people just dump flags all over the place like it's the standard thing to do. I've seen several maps where the flags are like 20 feet apart. What's the point of that? That's just stupid. I would love to see some new maps with solid gameplay and flow due to strategic layouts rather than maps that rely on multiple flags per base to keep things moving.

Obscurely-placed/hidden/difficult to reach/trick jump required flag locations
Along with my previous point, it seems some mappers feel the need to make an easter egg hunt/platformer game out of the flag placement. When placing a flag, ask yourself these questions:
1) Will a person playing this map for the first time be able to immediately locate this flag?
2) Will a person playing the game for the first time be able to reach the flag?
3) Can a person reach the flag while moving backward and shooting at defending opponents?
If the answer is "no" to any of those, you should probably reconsider the flag placement.

Let's use planks everywhere!
They're structurally sound, right? Use them for support beams, ladders, hell, even make a single plank out of planks! I know it's kind of the signature texture in this game, but it looks dumb in most cases. Who would build a pole out of planks? That doesn't even make sense. About the only place I've seen planks in real life is on a floor. Ok, that's not really recent, and I'm guilty of it, too, but let's at least try to make the maps somewhat feasible/believable in the future.

Ignored feedback/90% done and calling it "final"
If you're tired of working on a map, let somebody else polish it up. A lot of times, the issues are relatively quick fix if somebody has the motivation. We already have hundreds, if not thousands, of maps. We don't have a lot of high-quality maps. Test, iterate, polish, and make the best looking, best playing map the game has ever seen, then make an even better one.

Maybe, with time, we can fill the server rotations with solid, fun, good-looking, accessible maps that will keep new players coming back for more.

musickid999 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2009, 08:59:18 PM »

Right now, IMO, the main trend is that ALL paths are speedy. The faster you are able to run, the better your advantage. Soon, it turns into a flag exchange fest between two more experienced players. The newer players end up having to try to find their way to the other team's base while their opponent is capping it up. Compare old maps like Arenaball and newer maps like Carpathian. They're both great maps, but Arenaball requires you to slow down and actually take aim in order to survive. On the other hand, in Carpathian, there is little strategy. The faster you go and the better you jump, the more invincible you are. That's just my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree.

RoBiNandL!nk · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2009, 09:12:07 PM »

well if we had more textures that looked good together besides planks i might use something new... i think 90% of the metal textures look ugly.

in Carp u dont need speed to be good it just helps

SkaDooSh · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2009, 09:36:32 PM »

I am constantly looking for good maps to match on. Generally, 2 flag maps with multiple paths are what everyone is looking for and making these days, but I wouldn't mind a 1 flag map if the gameplay is good.

I see no problem in having a flag that requires a jump a little harder than the average player is used to.

Quote from: jitspoe on August 03, 2009, 08:28:12 PM

If you're tired of working on a map, let somebody else polish it up.

+1

Cameron · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2009, 10:58:09 PM »

The thing I see is maps that require speed, and being able to finish a map with 2 flags in 5 minutes in a pub. I would like to see someone finish midnight with a pub full of newbies in the time it takes to complete any 2 flag speed map. The difference there is midnight makes you slow down, you can't exactly pick up that much speed, so it limits you to what newbies can do as well. You can just aim better.

musickid999 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2009, 12:34:23 AM »

Quote from: Cameron on August 03, 2009, 10:58:09 PM

The thing I see is maps that require speed, and being able to finish a map with 2 flags in 5 minutes in a pub. I would like to see someone finish midnight with a pub full of newbies in the time it takes to complete any 2 flag speed map. The difference there is midnight makes you slow down, you can't exactly pick up that much speed, so it limits you to what newbies can do as well. You can just aim better.

Exactly my point. Seems corners and narrower hallways prevent experienced players from getting too fast and having too much of an advantage over newer players. Recently, new maps completely disregard this, catering towards those that have already picked up the basic skills of DP, allowing them to run past newbies at the speed of sound.

b00nlander · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2009, 01:11:05 AM »

Thank you jitspoe, I fully agree with you. I did, however, laugh heartily at the word "recent". The mapping scene has been like that in the past 3 years or so.

Cameron · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2009, 02:59:26 AM »

Heh, all overplayed maps are speed maps. zomg rick we havta make this paradise map go according to these rules

fasian · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2009, 03:50:14 AM »

Quote from: Cameron on August 04, 2009, 02:59:26 AM

paradise map

What happened to the mine and the elevator things?

Gamabunta · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2009, 04:33:14 AM »

Most of maps are just not meant to be played by newbies. Also, I've played pubs for waaaay too long, so all I can tell about 90% of newbies is that they are COMPLETLY clueless. All they do is finding a good place to hide and stay for the rest of map time. They never use shorter path (even if shorter path is way more accessible than longer). They hardly ever go for flag, when they grab, they don't know what to do with it. Those are main reasons for maps being like they are recently - mappers want to make a map with accurate flow for more advanced players.

AsThor · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2009, 04:46:22 AM »

A map with only 1 flag would cause massive camping.

Viper · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2009, 05:17:13 AM »

Nobody wants to match on a 1-path-map with 1 flag, that would be horrible for the gameplay... The team, which is leading, would never leave their own base, so we just need these maps for the matching scene.

Rewind · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2009, 05:36:55 AM »

I have to agree with jitspoe. And I absolutely hate this whole concept of '2 flags with incredibly fast jumps = gameplay' I think 1 flag maps have much better gameplay because it's harder to get the flag, it requires teamwork. And camping is PART OF THE GAME, its not some thing only newbs do, its a legitimate way of making sure people dont get the flag. if you dont like camping, maybe you should try some teamwork to get the flag instead of rushing in as fast as you can to try and cap.

b00nlander · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2009, 05:52:40 AM »

Quote from: Viper on August 04, 2009, 05:17:13 AM

Nobody wants to match on a 1-path-map with 1 flag, that would be horrible for the gameplay... The team, which is leading, would never leave their own base, so we just need these maps for the matching scene.

- nobody is talking about 1-path maps
- the maps with 1 flag simply need a base that is accessible to the attacking team from multiple sides, making it hard to defend --> take NHB for example

Cameron · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2009, 06:25:01 AM »

Quote from: fasian on August 04, 2009, 03:50:14 AM

What happened to the mine and the elevator things?

Didn't have time, gave up on it. I'd actually started this paradise one with someone a year or 2 ago and never finished it.

Quote from: AsThor on August 04, 2009, 04:46:22 AM

A map with only 1 flag would cause massive camping.

So? Camping is part of the Gameplay. Having 2 flags just means the map moves a whole lot faster and it gets quite annoying.

Edit: excrement rewind said what gameplay was

Viper · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:56:51 AM »

Quote from: b00nlander on August 04, 2009, 05:52:40 AM

- nobody is talking about 1-path maps
- the maps with 1 flag simply need a base that is accessible to the attacking team from multiple sides, making it hard to defend --> take NHB for example

Did you ever play NHB against rP ?
NHB is easy to camp, just ask Soldier ^^

T3RR0R15T · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:51:53 AM »

Quote from: jitspoe on August 03, 2009, 08:28:12 PM

Maybe, with time, we can fill the server rotations with solid, fun, good-looking, accessible maps that will keep new players coming back for more.

Everything +1, but this especially.

RiMiNi · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2009, 02:03:39 PM »

Unfortunately, all of the maps you people pointed out as examples of well-constructed maps are never played. And what mapper wants to spend hours of their time working on a beautiful map, if it isn't going to get played because it doesn't have the trick jumps and the speed paths. It's part of what makes dp, dp for experienced players.

-Gamabunta's point about newbies is 100% correct.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I think this was a good post Jitspoe, and will definetly be thinking about it when I'm mapping from now on. (But I still won't finish cream

jitspoe · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:58:15 PM »

Well, "recent" is a relative term, as the game is over 10 years old...

I never said anything against multi-path maps (I hate 1-path maps, personally) or maps that have quick flow. The thing I'm really against is maps that have, say, a direct path that takes 2 seconds and some long, windy, obscure tunnel that takes 10+ seconds to navigate (if the player can find it, or even no secondary path at all!)

The other thing that really bugs me is paths that are trivial for experienced players (for example, a hill jump to something that is 64+ units tall), but new players will just stand next to them and jump up and down, unable to get where they want to go until somebody flies by and shoots them in the back. That can't be a good first impression.

"But I made this map for matches, not for new players!"
1) These kinds of maps are filling up the rotations on pub servers, and new players are playing them.
2) If a path is accessible and doesn't provide a challenge to your target audience (match players) what's the point in making it inaccessible to new players? Turn that ramp jump/double jump/ice jump/whatever into a straight forward ramp, 32 unit jump, or ladder.
3) Why have matches degraded into speed jumping competitions? Go start a q2jump clan.

Yeah, new players may just sit in one spot and camp the whole match, but that's no reason to design maps in such a way that that's the only thing they can do effectively.

Oh, the other thing I forgot to rant about is the fact that people have been using ice all over the place, even on summer themed maps.

RoBiNandL!nk · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2009, 01:04:17 AM »

yeah i love people who put snow and plants together too
unless theyre dead it just dosent work out and sometimes i dont get that there is ice and than there is water... i can understand sometimes this case might happen but wouldnt it be in the center of this??