Crash using hacked skins.

[Derrek]

hmm...the quote feature is not working...

OK, Jitspoe said:

MODIFYING THE GAME CONTENT IN ORDER TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE IS CHEATING.
</Jits>


Jits, how do you feel about crosshair modification?  What about textures?  Menus?(altho, that really does not give any advantage.)  Sounds?   To what extent can someone modify the game, and when does it become an unfair advantage?

I think that there should be some sort of definition on what is hacking and what is cheating.  I have spoken with many players that have made these changes, and each disagree with what constitutes a cheat/hack.


-Derrek

[jitspoe]

I don't think crosshair modification will give you any advantage.  That's more of a personal preference in my book, so different crosshairs would not be a cheat.  I play best with crosshair 1, but others may prefer something different.  I tried to include a variety of crosshairs, but if you don't feel they're sufficient and have created your own crosshair, post it on the forums or send it to me, and I may include it with the next version.

Texture modification really depends on the intent.  In crash's case, his intent was to be able to see player models more clearly, which obviously gives him an unfair advantage over somebody playing with the standard models, making it a cheat.  Something like FourthX's high-res texture pack, however, was intended to enhance the appearance of the game, and does not to my knowledge give players any kind of advantage, so that wouldn't be a cheat.  There are plenty of grey areas in between, though, so I may be forced to have a standard texture check in the future.

I don't see how anything could possibly be done with menus to give people an unfair advantage, so any modifications there are fine.  If there is something, let me know in private.

Edit: Missed the sounds.  Modifying something like the death sounds or menu sounds -- things that aren't going to help you play any better -- would not be cheating, however modifying sounds to help pinpoint player locations such as footsteps would be cheating.

I also had some questions on IRC about the custom models option in the menu.  This is merely a leftover from Quake2 and in planning for future support for customizable player models.  This is so you can disable other players' use of different models (for example, the female and alita models from Q2) and just use the default player model, NOT so you can modify the appearance of everyone.

[TinMan]

He's walling all the way, the skins don't matter that much, he knew where EVERYONE was, and don't tell me he guessed because that is OBVIOUSLY not true.

[SkateR]

can someone screenshot his models? I cant get the vid to work

[Derrek]

quote feature is not working (as I said before), but I just realized that I should paste the error that I am getting when I try to quote you, Jit:
An Error Has Occurred!
Unable to load the 'quotefast' template.


Cross hair modification would not seem like it would give an advantage, but consider the following...

With build 11(or 12?), I modified the source so the cross hair would randomize.  Then I made 3 crosshairs in the shape of a circle with alternating white/black specs.  They would, when randomize, give the effect of a motion crosshair (it would spin).  I did this because I had a hard time locating the default crosshair on screen, and my aim would be off.  Since then, I upgraded to build 14 (and no 16), and got tired of having to add the mod for each build.  I still have one of the pics as the crosshair, but it no longer moves.

s8n released a larger crosshair that had a crude range finder in it(plain graphic, no source mod).  This gives you the advantage of being able to aim more accurately at a distance by using the vertical lines as a gauge when aiming.

Are either of those a cheat?  Mine might have because of the source hack....but only was done to identify the crosshair better.  btw, it was much better then using a blue dry erase marker to mark the crosshair, like I did previous to the motion crosshair.  s8n's could be because it gave you an aim advantage for distances, and is not really for identifying the crosshair itself.


Textures:

I love 4th's texture pack...it looks sweet.  I wish all of the textures were done though.

what if someone changed all the textures so they were all grey?  players would stand out really well then (with sacrifice to depth perception as its harder to determine with the same color textures for everything).


menus, as I said, would not really give an advantage in game.  dead point, but I brought it up simply because it was a modification to the game.


models:
What if someone used the default models, but adjusted the brightness of them?  I see this as similar to gl_modulate.  You decided(way back when) that modulate was a hack...so is any mod that makes things easier to see a hack(aka cheat)?  What about gamma?  you have in game gamma adjustment...and there is vid card adjustment.  I can adjust my gamma so the darkest maps look bright as day(while sacrificing brilliant colors for a washed out display).

You allow the use of the old models in build 16.  What about the original q2 models(with default skins)?  What about a model found on the internet?  what about a spiked model?
While some of these are obvious cheats, others are not so obvious.



I’m not trying to question your logic, but rather, I am wondering what the definitions of cheating are because so many people have different opinions on what should be allowable and what shouldn't.


-Derrek

[jitspoe]

The quote problem has been mentioned in the forum update thread.  I'll try to fix that this weekend.  Send me your crosshairs and I'll see if I can include something similar in the next build.  I think even S8N admitted that his crosshair didn't help any.  I could include something similar, though, just to make it standard.

Changing all textures to grey would be a cheat.  Modifying the texture brightness of the players would be a cheat.  Gamma is hard to enforce.  There are some people out there who genuinely have dark monitors and need to crank the gamma up in order to see what most people would see on the default settings.  Others merely crank all the settings up as high as they'll go even though their monitor is already a standard brightness.  These people will have an unfair advantage over people with dark monitors.  In the future, I plan to make some kind of color profile wizard so that people can properly configure the game to look best on their monitor.

Spiked models are definitely a cheat.  Q2 models... I've OK'd these in the past, but that was when people were having a hard time transitioning over from the Q2 mod, and pretty much everybody had Q2 and could just copy the files over.  Now it's a bit more of a grey area.  Lots of current players don't even have Quake2, and giving them the Q2 grunt model would be illegal.  Also, the bounding box problems with the old standalone model have been fixed with the new model, so... I don't know, I guess I'd have to review the old grunt model to see if it gives people any advantage.  If not, it's probably OK, but I wouldn't encourage it as I'll be adding more extensive file checking, so if you use these models it would be in your best interest to adapt to the new models and provide feedback about the things you don't like.  Other downloadable models fall into this category, too.  They would likely require heavy modifications in order to support 4 team colors.  With cheat detection it's a lot simpler to just kill the grey areas and say "only use the standard models."

[digi]

Crash what do you need modified models for? All you do is sit behind boxes waiting for people to pass so you can shoot them in the back.

PS -- Just ban all of cP. Clipz, crash, jake.. They're all the same idiot.

[Reed]

What about the scope, is that a hack? Or is it just the same as a handedness bind? Because i know alot of people use this.

[Matze]

By the way, is there any way to stop letting people play with edited models?

I didn't even know that you can edit them so they "glow".Saw it on crash's video for the first time, and now im wondering how many people are playing with it =/

[P!nk]

Reed: no, anyone can use fov. The "scope" feature is just zooming in and out with fov. Jits has already approved this, and it really isn't that great of an advantage. Though it could probably be put into a future build so people don't think others have an advantage.

Matze: if there was an excellent anti hacking system, then yes. But that probably won't be around for awhile. The models in Crash's video were not glowing, he had just changed the colors. If they were glowing, it would look like the thread where the guy was running around with a yellowish-glow. Though it's technically not a hack, it isn't encouraged because people wonder what is going on. Meaning it'll probably fall under the hack category just because it's a distraction. There is another possibility for the smarter people who don't want to get caught, but that takes too long to do, so many people won't try to tackle it.

How can a hack and a cheat be different?  I fail to understand how anyone could call the two different. They'll both get you banned.

edit: there is one exception, jits could force people to use one model. But that would make plently of complaints. It could be like the build 14 thing where you had to have it to enter the server.

[TinMan]

I tried that q2 Jump mappack, and the textures were missing, so the game was all grid-like. Wouldn't running a map in grid-mode er whatever be the same as using glow models? You'd need to make sure the models aren't glowing AND you'd have to make sure they are using the proper textures if you were gonna crack down on that.

[Clipz]

Modifig models is cheating? you kidding me... I was on blitz's website the other day hes got models on his ss's that are not the origional ss's...  http://www.houstonareacomputers.com/files/blitz/woof.jpg so he should be banned too?

Also i want to clear one more thing up would chaning the color of the paintballs be a cheat?

Jitspoe: Maybe you should write a manual on whats a cheat and whats not. Thanks

Digi: Why should we be banned because were maybe a threat to your er33t girlfriends?

Just incase if blitz tried to deny it i got the ss off his site and posting it on here

[XtremeBain]

I don't think those are Blitz's skins, they look like someone else's.  I could be wrong however.

* XtremeBain shrugs

[Clipz]

Im just trying to prove a point that there are more people that use modified models. I dont think its a cheat i liked the q2 models. The pball ones are to skinny

[jitspoe]

There are/were more people using wallhacks, too.  That doesn't make them any less of a cheat.  They give the user an unfair advantage.

[XtremeBain]

I don't like them personally but it's a matter of preference.  In Counter-Strike the skins are locked down to realistic skins but in Rocket Arena or competitive Quake mods there are options which allow you to specify enemy/team colours which create an affect similar to what is seen in Crash's video.

That being said, anyone caught using modified models or skins in PBCup competition will be subject to Global Ban List discipline and possible suspension in running and future PBCup Events.

Otherwise, it was an interesting video.  It's too bad that all the time and effort you spent editing and attaching the demos resulted in a global ban for what was seemingly innocent and common practice among lots of players

[digi]

Digi: Why should we be banned because were maybe a threat to your er33t girlfriends?


^ eh? a threat? I dont get it..? Do you have be a walrus to get that one? Explain.


Bain: Yeah, in ra3 it's cool how you can change your skin colours.. But then again, everyone can do it with ease.

[Clipz]

Good answer moron. I was asking a question and i get a pointless answer just like the rest from digi.

[Dirty_Taco]

Yeah, clipz is really one to talk about anyone hacking...

[digi]

Clipz: That wasn't sarcasm. I'm sorry your walrus ears took it like that. I really didnt understand what you said.