Demo Request: Muff

[pvtjimmy]

For all the haters:
The commitee thread I linked to is not a Muff ban thread, but a thread where a new discussion was started about how to handle these cases. One of the things I think should definitely be discussed is when something gets "bannable". To avoid bans for random demo requests I would say the commitee should only enforce (and eventually ban) people if there's enough suspicion from others demo's from the same match and map.

In this case I don't think a ban could be justified. Although the above stated moments look awkward, I think they can easily be explained by strafe jumping and/or temporary lags. A speedhack would definitely been detected by Jitspoe's security systems

p.s.

For example, why does Rick not lag with over a 200 ping?

Have a look at 12.40-12.32 on Rick's demo. I haven't played with Rick much yet, but I can't imagine he's that slow in his reactions after such a while of playing.

[DuDe]

Rick I did notify him as soon as i had a chance and that was like the day or day before when he posted, I'm sorry i didn't have the time to track him down and message him about this sooner.

[MyeRs]

Edit: Here's Henrod's POV. I'll edit with some times when I can get a chance.

I didn't pay to much attention, but this is basically the times where henrod chasecams muff

16:50
10:30
8:00

He chasecams again at like 2:40 but it's odd because when I compare the 10:30 to the 2:40 it seems like MuFF's moving a lot slower. It's just odd when he's walking he seems to move faster then he should... Oh, and MuFF why would you delete the demo when Av3k told you the day of that there's a forum post... Me/Shk/SuMMit told you the day after over Ventrilo, Carcoal said he's told you multiple times, and DuDe has told you... The part I find the most odd is that since this forum thread went up you were only idling StaRz private channel, and after your post saying it's deleted you started idling everything again. [I wanted to msg you about the thread so I typed /whois MuFF and it showed you were only in a secret channel]

Also - When we told you over vent you didn't say a single thing about deleting it, you just would either ignore us, or laugh saying: Do you guys actually think I speedhack. And in your post you act like Rick is doing this because he hates you, all that was wanted is for you show your demo to clarify. PS - You didn't glitch or teleport at all, so it was not lag. And I'm pretty sure speeding isn't detectable, they are only off demo's.

[DuDe]

Please remember we are talking about jitspoe's almighty cheat detection it detects everything k thanks gg.

[CheMiCal]

speedhacks are undetectable........... from what i was told. and in that first demo rick gave us the last time around 10:00 was obv speed hacks, he wasn't lag spiking at all it was smooth and if he was spiking he woulda just stopped every little bit . he was moving faster then normal and it didn't look like he was lagging at all. and when he tried speed to one did you see how fast he dropped? thats bs. and henrods demo had some bs times too. and this deleating a demo thing is bullexcrement becuase he asked ingame apparently and thats kinda wierd he just deleats it? if i did that when foxhound thought i was hacking against dude in that 1v1 on pp1 i would be banned right now i guarentee it.

[kazee]

After watching the last few minutes of that demo I am shocked he is not banned yet.

[MuFFDiVeR]

Keep in mind the post is about speed hacking not the responsibility of distribution of demos. Based on the poor execution requesting for demos , due to the over barring and not realistic requests made by players I choose to take what I hear as a joke most of the time. If I comply with the amount of demo request in a day I would be giving out demos every time I play because kids like to ask for them thinking it’s humorous (we have all seen it).  With this in mind, there is more than enough footage to prove if such an event took place regardless of the exposure of my demo.  Again this post has not indicated a detected hack of any kind. I find it very interesting to hear from a lot of players that speed hacking is not detectable.  This rises as a serious issue! I can only re-state I did not use any sort of hack being described in this thread. I would like to present a possibility of options that could have taken place.

Is it possible that what you see through Ricks pc is not the same as what you might experience through mine? Absolutely, I warp all the time I play that map specifically.   That’s why I choose not to play it. There have been no other comments being made concerning the 6 other maps played that night because there is no problem subject to the speed hacking acquisition.

Is it possible that if Rick does know and or posses a speed hack, Rick -“I've speed hacked in the past and it's not detectable as far as I know.” Yes very possible! Hence this quote. Now it is also a possibility for someone, meaning anyone to use a speed hack which Rick has described while spectating players so it appears to be viewed differently. Yes very possible! And  seriously needs to be overlooked by the committee.

Lastly I would like to express the “conflict of interest” between those who are on the committee and those who are involved in this case. There is an unfair bias and not being handled professionally. This is the main reason why these matters are civil in nature.

To move forward in the future I would like to give a suggestion to the committee. Have a third party in place to review demos (1 or 2 people, it’s not entertainment it’s a huge responsibility” !! and with the information complied  send it out to DIFFERENT people on the board to review the findings based on factual information and at this point come to a decision based on the evidence that where complied by the third party. This way it eliminates or reduces self opinions which are made and shared through the old process.

To also want to touch on the late response, as I have mentioned earlier “if read properly”   MUFF – “I thought Rick was kidding or playing a joke considering I just got unbanned and had to re-download and install DP” players ask for demos all the time. In my mind Rick was trying to be funny ! like he usually does. I also made the effort after the match to PM Henrond and ask “is Rick being serious” and to this day I have not got a respond. I don’t have time to baby sit the DP forum page, sorry.

To answer Myers “the part I find the most odd is that since this forum thread went up you were only idling StaRz private channel” My computer is set to idle only that channel.  If I’m not in other channels that probably because I have been disconnected and reconnected and not attending to my pc I can go from being on it consistently to not being around it for weeks at a time. In the respect of this forum please only respond to matters that are relevant.
I also see a problem in the behavior of players when it comes to serious matters. They are not being treated reasonably. A new norm has been taking place through the actions of players. The committee has weakened its exclusiveness recently and inturn banning issues are becoming abused through careless comments and union like bias groups.

In my opinion these matters should be treated with factual information. If there is a problem finding tangible value that cannot hold a position of “guilty” behavior then innocence is the only other option and in the future prevention measures should be in consideration, such as new detection.

[flip]

To muff and carcoal:

  My post requesting the demo was made simply to see if it would get a response since you apparently was not going to respond to Rick. You want an apology after one day for "failing to notify you"? First of all it is not our place to MAKE you check the forums. 2ndly, apparently someone DID notify you since you showed up as soon as the word BAN was used. Funnay how that happens. Why didn't the same awesome teammates inform you about the thread to begin with? Weird, I know. Let's not leave out the obvious.

I'm making a second paragraph because I'm sure you started to gloss over the first when you read something you didn't like. I'm sorry to inform you Mr. Muff but you were used to make a point I had since the whole persecution of shockwave. The thing being, at one time the almighty committee was swayed by the few of them that match extensively in a hope that they could force someone to give up a demo since they had long suspected that player of hacking. If you take a deeper look at my Vanity bashing you will notice I kept bringing up a demo request I made of him. To make it short and readable: I requested his demo he flat out refused and laughed in my face. I made a thread with the statement "Consider this an official request from the committee for your demo". I received no help from my peers on this matter. Go figure. Then along comes the whole shockwave incidents. The whole "submit demo or be banned" issue was a sore spot with me. I saw exactly what ya'll saw. A subjected view as to which demo request were enforced.

I made a thread in the committee discussion section to discuss this and to see what type of enforcement we should use. Honestly the whole "I deleted my demo" excuse is getting quite old. Viciouz made a host for all demos, it just requires you gentlemen to have a little integrity to upload your own demos. Everyone that comes on here raging about they do not hack but keep getting accused and all the "I deleted my demo cuz I don't have enough space on my harddrive because of my pron" should be the ones using the tool Viciiouz gave you to defend yourself against such accusations. Stop making excuses and speak with your actions. I actually like you quite a bit muff. If you remember I used to call you the muffin man when I was a new player. Hate to say it though, but your argument for your demo isn't very good. You are saying the same stuff everyone before you has said, unfortunately most of those guys ended up with some ban time because they were caught cheating.

1) Committee is biased (regardless of who is on it the hacking community will call it biased)
2) I deleted my demo
3) flip is wrong

Like shk, I will take you at your word because of my experiences with you. Just like real life I judge people on the way they act/interact with their fellow people in the community and me. You always were quite helpful and stood up for individuals being harassed. Sorry if it hurt your feelings that I used you as a valid test subject. GTFOverit.
    

[MuFFDiVeR]

Rick - "I too don't agree he should be banned because he didn't supply a demo. " I think this says it all. Now can we drop the issue?

Rick - "I just don't like how in each of MuFF's paragraphs, he uses me as an excuse as to why he didn't upload the demo;"
sorry rick i am not trying to personalize this but.. you where the one who posted your demo and started the forum. my reasons have been given to why the demo is not up.

Don't stop cracking those jokes because you are a funny dude. pulling a fast one over someones head is what i expect from you so i never really looked at it in a serious position before, until now.

[flip]

Lastly I would like to express the “conflict of interest” between those who are on the committee and those who are involved in this case. There is an unfair bias and not being handled professionally. This is the main reason why these matters are civil in nature.

To move forward in the future I would like to give a suggestion to the committee. Have a third party in place to review demos (1 or 2 people, it’s not entertainment it’s a huge responsibility” !! and with the information complied  send it out to DIFFERENT people on the board to review the findings based on factual information and at this point come to a decision based on the evidence that where complied by the third party. This way it eliminates or reduces self opinions which are made and shared through the old process.

So what you are saying is that you want a group of random individuals selected from the community to review the demos? Hello? Committee?
That is exactly what we are. I also would like to point out that you are saying that the individuals involved are biased. Sorry. As far as I have seen no single member that stood up for Rick about his ban has even posted in here besides me. To call me biased is awesome since I have no dealings with your accuser outside of this forum. I do not socialize with him at all. I do socialize with people of this game all the time and quite a few of them I have voted FOR their bans. I do not see the biased as we are a group of individuals that do not have the same views on much of anything. We do however try to argue our points without calling one another names and attacking each others integrity. If you read my post above you will see evidence of this.

Let me reiterate #1 from above...

1) Committee is biased. Regardless of who is on it, who will be on it. If someone is subjected to any type of accusations the three most common responses are: a) COMMITTEE IS BIASED.    b) I DONT HACK.     c) I DELETED THE DEMO.

I did not accuse you of hacking before because I trust your integrity and afforded you some manner of respect based upon your actions as a person. I expect the same from you since I have never hacked and have done nothing negative towards you in anyway. Please do not question my integrity.  

[MuFFDiVeR]

Thank you Flip for being a reasonable persona and acting in a responsible way. i would like to also instill my trust in you by moving forward from this as a learning experience.
I hope you saw what i have seen in the change of behavior in some players acting in an childish manner.
I am still not convinced that the system works! I think it needs to be more exclusive and more detail oriented.

Have a nice day sir!

[MuFFDiVeR]

Flip your integrity was never in question, i was speaking in the general state. Also what you might read on the forums may not appear to be everything being talked about outside of this forum, this is where I see the bias behavior taking place. not including you.

by third party i am talking about 1 or 2 persons who are on the committee and have a separate job to review the footage and collect factual information from players or jits. and based on that finding present it to the rest of the board in a doc format which can be then discussed. This will eliminate personal opinion because the footage is not being watched by everyone. 

[pvtjimmy]

Muff, I appreciate the fact that you're giving detailed comments, but wouldn't it have been way quicker to upload your demo and, as you assume, solve this matter?

[flip]

I agree with jimmy but this is what we must deal with. There is no SET standard.

Muff- Thank you sir.
The committee already functions in this way to an extent. Normally when a matter comes up a member of the committee (normally jimmy) will step up or be asked to pursue the matter. That member then takes his task and sallies forth to pursue the information. Upon gathering as much information as possible he then brings it forth to the committee as a whole. It is then that the arguments ensue. In this phase committee members attempt to show flaws or errors in the detectives findings. Once we have settled on the matter it is then put up to a discussion as to ban length based upon # of offenses and past history.

Please keep in mind that every system is fallible and our committee is still very young. We are still trying to set these standards when issues like this come up. Just as I argued during Shockwave's "trial" I pointed out that it was not fair and that until we set a standard on all aspects of demo submission then it should not be pursued. On the flip side, people should use a little common sense and grow up a little. The matching community is not very large at the moment and regardless of what everyone says the ones who were banned deserved it. We can all keep griping about this and that but the facts remain. Until this community can grow up and start being proactive we will continue to see it dwindle because we protect hackers that we like, we drive away descent people with our abusive behaviors and inaction towards the friends that hack. I will say this once more for everyones benefit:

The committee WILL come to a choice in the demo submission matter and there WILL NOT be any excuses. It will be up to the teams that match to get the word out to your team members. There WILL be set standards as to the length of time to make a request for a demo and there WILL be consequences if demos are not provided within a set time.

To that end, does it have to be this way? No. You all could get into the habit of uploading your demos straightaway after a match. It doesn't take that long and it can be accomplished while waiting for another match. Will everyone do this? I highly doubt it. Most individuals will not do this for one of two reasons: 1) They are used to using their "advantages" and will continue to use them because they fear to be ridiculed by their peers for their real lack of skill. and 2) because there are those amongst us that thrive on being complete jerks for no apparent reason except they think their interwebz rep will be diminished if they do what is right.

[kazee]

my suggestion to this endless "I deleted my demo" nonsense.

1. You must request the demo in game this way the assumed hacker has no time to delete a demo
2. If the demo is not presented, a short maybe 8-16 day ban is given
3. If the player is detected of hacks, or there is 100% proof of a person hacking through an additional demo is presented, a standard ban will be added on top of the short ban given for not presenting a demo.

-  As seen in the past there have been occurrences of demos not recording.  with this there will only be a short penalty unless there is additional evidence against that player. 

- end of drunken rant,  my apologies for a rather off topic post, but this seems like a relatively logical and straight forward solution to this never ending problem. 

[Rick]

I'd like to ask for the demo of this from carcoal and av3k It will give another POV.
I'll also try to get Cam's.

[idias]

and also this Demo request thread is getting ridiculous, when im unbanned im going to make it my life's mission to ask for a demo any time i think i was hacked. even if its the slightest suspicion. and id better get a demo within 24 hours or im gunna raise some stink.

I'm not sure if I misread what you just said, but have you been not around for the past times? It's what happens daily, you request demos and get obsessed about it. Also, even if it is the slightest suspicion, if it is structured accusation than yap, you should make all the efforts in your power to get the demo  or you should "raise some stink". This isn't one of those "rage" accusations. Rick thinks MuFF hacks and he tried to get his demo, unfortunately for some weird reason muff deleted his demo because apparently the efforts to reach him weren't enough.

oh, and muff's innocent and you all obviously dont like each other so why are you all pretending to be all friendly, lets see some hair pulling and crotch punching. kthnx

We can't really prove it since he doesn't have his demo, and I actually like some of these people... besides crotch punching is just a weak move. kthxbai.

[Foxhound]

im just upset because people don't just accept the fact that people might actually be good. i mean accusing muff whos been playing forever, just as soon as hes unbanned? why don't you wait another couple matches playing against him and see if its still suspicious. its just courtesy. i would like to get demos of all the players on here that i think hack, but ive requested for 1 and it was based off of someone elses match. stop accusing and just play.

 "besides crotch punching is just a weak move" and the hair pulling isnt? bahaha. i'd feel more manly giving someone a round house kick to the sack rather than pulling out some dudes mullet.

kthnxbaicusoon

[Rick]

We are all still friends, it's just a demo request. I have never seen anyone go that fast, hit the hay bale and have a riduculous drop slope.

Also, why wouldn't we use grammer? I still go to school and by using good grammer on forums and such, it helps me learn and helps my grades in english. PRACTISE MY FRIEND.

[idias]

Why does he need to wait some more matches, he's requesting the demo not telling people to ban him and when you say that he's just been unbanned even makes things a lot more suspicious. And I wouldn't be backing up a demo request if it was another one of those "I lost he must hack" requests...
I'd rather pull out some hair and female dog slap someone, crotch kicking is just too painfull.