Author Topic: Dead-Man Recon  (Read 22795 times)

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2005, 02:55:07 PM »
if you black out my screen ill punch you in the nuts.
cable makes this came too easy, i propose we all go back to
dail up. 
-Brew

Yeah. It's easy because your clan refuses to match good clans, and then goes and 5v5's germans. If you don't want the game to be 'easy', come match eR33t.

Playah

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2005, 03:13:58 PM »
kinda racism digi. Only american clans are good?!

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2005, 03:16:37 PM »
kinda racism digi. Only american clans are good?!

Nah, it's not ME who thinks that. It's other clans who refuse to match us because they have 'no one on', and then go match german clans 5 vs 5. I match whoever wants to match. I dont care how good/bad they are. I play for fun. Not to add wins to my channels topic.

Hobo

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2005, 03:37:41 PM »
What are you talking about digi?

Digi - "Hobo -- So what you think people whine after you kill them in a PUB, and dont want to see what they say?
No one cares about pubs. You can mute people cant you? Go mute a whole pub and play happily. No need to ruin the game for the rest of us just because you're emotionally shattered by someone saying OMGZ NICE CHEATZ D0o0D."

  If you'd pull your head out for a breath you'd see I was telling him I think he should leave deadman recon on.... He also had deadman talk turned off... which means unless you're dead you can't see what the dead say.  Although pball isn't  meant as a chat program it does get used as one.  When you are one of the last left you miss most of the conversation when deadtalk is off.  It wasn't even about the reconning...  I agree that recon should be allowed and take pride in my ability to use it.
  As far as no one caring about the pubs:  WTF is you're problem?  Just because you don't care doesn't mean no one does.  I care about the pubs.  You come accross as an arrogant sob.  I'm saddened that someone with as much experience and talent which you have can't see anything but one way to do things.  I'm sure you don't care what I think but since you choose to reply to my post you are either wanting to argue or do care, I'd guess it's the first.  You say you play for fun, so do alot of the players in the game, including myself.  I'm aware that I don't match, and that I'm not in a clan.  I've seen what alot of the clans are like and I'm fine without that added crap.  So yes I for one care what happens on the pubs more so than in the matches.  A player starts on the pubs and hopefully gets good enough to get asked into a clan... remember not everyone that plays only plays in matches.
  What else?  Doesn't matter...

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2005, 03:43:35 PM »
I can see more then one way to do things. And of course, there's always a BETTER way. RECON is the better way. Feel free to take it out of pubs, I wouldnt care.

The fact is this topic is mainly in regards to matching. I'm sure jit isnt too concerned about 2 newbies reconing eachother in a public server. It doesn't affect anyone.

Hobo

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2005, 03:49:32 PM »
  Open your mind digi...  please don't try to speak as the voice of everyone, but feel free to express YOUR thoughts and wishes.

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2005, 04:08:10 PM »
  Open your mind digi...  please don't try to speak as the voice of everyone, but feel free to express YOUR thoughts and wishes.



How did I know you'd say that.....?
recon has NOTHING to do with public servers. That's all I'm saying.

Hobo

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2005, 04:22:49 PM »
  In my opinion, you're wrong.  "NOTHING" is too strong, very little might be a better choice... in my opinion.

loial21

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2005, 05:19:56 PM »
Do only newbs play in public?  It beats playing with your self.

jimmy

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2005, 08:27:51 PM »
if you're trying to influence "teamwork and streatgey," then what is so wrong with recon??  Recon can be a great tool can help win matches.  Without recon is like depending on the "individual skills" of the person.  Overall recon is great and influences teams to help each other.

jitspoe

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2005, 08:46:56 PM »
From what I've seen, dead man recon tends to boil the game down to raw skill (of the living player(s)).  If it's teamwork, it's passive teamwork.  Eliminated players aren't actively involved in distracting the enemy, or flanking them, or any of the things I would personally consider to be teamwork.  Instead they're simply providing the living player(s) with information which nullifies any potential strategy the enemy is using and results in merely skill-based confrontation.

If you have good aim and work as a team, you'll most likely win.. there's not much strategizing to do, even in big maps like c1.
Because it isn't necessary.  Who needs strategy when your dead teammates can simply tell you where everyone is?

For example, I'm rushing high on castle1 (4 vs 4) and I see that DirtyTaco  and Bob have just been killed almost simultaneously by the same opponent. Well, I knew DT was going backdoor -> middle, so I assume that they both lost a firefight in the middle of the map. Now, I also quickly consider the fact that there's probably two opponents in the middle instead of one, since both of them getting killed by a single guy at once seems improbable (there were probably other distractions). So, very quickly, I consider my options in what is now a 2 vs 4 round. Instantaneously I would switch into a defensive position, either chooising to backtrack towards my backdoor/door area...
It would be neat if the game were played more like this, but in reality, it doesn't matter where your teammates are when they die, because they can simply tell you where the enemy is after the fact.

I can't remember the last time I recon'd "hes behind the crate" or "hes under so and so" because DP moves way too fast for the guy to still be there by the time you've received the recon and gone all the way there.
Perhaps you personally don't, but the er33t demos I've seen are filled with things like "tower", "V", "X", etc., designating exactly which bunker the enemy is at.  You know where he is.  He knows where you are.  The end result is a head on match of raw skill.  There's little room left open for outsmarting, ambushing, sneaking around, or pretty much any other strategy.  It's almost solely confrontation skills.

I'd like to thank DT for spelling out his reasoning in a logical fashon, but I do not think that playing with dead-man recon brings about the same level of teamwork and strategy that playing without it does.  Hear me out.  At one point, dead-man recon may have taken some skill, but these days with things like voice recon, it's trivial to tell your teammates where the enemies are.

Say you have a 5v5 match and you have an excellent game plan worked out.  Your team moves into position and eliminates the first opponent.

... and now the enemy knows your strategic positioning because the eliminated player is reporting it.  Strategy is almost pointless once the first guy is out.  It's straightforward confrontation from there on out.  You can't set up traps, ambushes, or surprise attacks (things that require active teamwork) very well because the enemy players know where you'll be.  You can't sneak into the base because the dead player(s) will report your position, even if you used some active teamwork to reach a path not normally accessable, and you will have to face a head-on confrontation with the defense.  Again, raw skill is involved there.  The strategy is pointless.

In fact, there is not much strategy offered at all, as digi mentioned.  It's mostly about how fast you can move and how well you can aim.  That's how it is with dead-man recon.

Without it, though, I think a whole new realm of latent gameplay could be opened up.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be neat to give it a chance.  Instead of being geared toward individual confrontational skills, it could potentially move more toward active teamwork and strategy.  Real game plans, not plans that only last half a second because the enemy knows where you are.

Now say you're the team that has an eliminated player.  With dead-man recon, you can all be lone gunman going after individual goals and have the eliminated player(s) tell you where the enemy is.  It's not critical to work together much, because the enemy can't simply sneak around you, and if they do manage to grab the flag, you'll know exactly what path the flag carrier is taking without even having to think.  You're just being told.  While this is not void of teamwork or strategy, it comes close in my opinion.

Without dead-man recon?  Now you're outnumbered and outgunned.  It's at this point that cooperating with your remaining teammates becomes critical.  You can't just merrily run off in your own way and attack the enemy, because you won't necessarily know where the enemy is.  You need a game plan, and you need one that's better than your enemy's.  It's no longer just a matter of running and shooting.  You have to outsmart the enemy.  Do something unexpected, but you also need your teammates to cover your arse.  Outplay.  Don't simply outrun or outaim.  That's teamwork at its finest.

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2005, 09:19:18 PM »
Once again I'd like to point out that you don't play matches jit. Maybe recently you've played one or 2, but over the last 4 years I dont remember you being active in the community at all. You definately don't have as much experience matching as a lot of us do.

I got the privellege to try your settings once in a match.. Again I'll tell you what that match consisted of.. 0:00 - 2:00 .. eR33t grabs/kill other team. eR33t is now in the lead. 2:00 - 20:00 .. eR33t goes high with flag and isnt found ONCE by the other team for the rest of the map.

Game over.

That's skill?.. If you remove recon, the 'stategy' that you want will be grabbing and hiding. If a team is in the lead, and knows they can hide somewhere and not be found without recon.. why risk going out and losing the lead? why not just hide the whole match?

I guarantee you this will happen A LOT. It already happened for the WHOLE MATCH the FIRST time we tried it. I bet it happens atleast 80% of all matches.

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2005, 09:21:22 PM »
Jit.. if you think recon is wallhacking, then MOVE. DP is a fast paced game. Ever if we could type 7billion words per minute, you would still have time to move before you could be shot behind your camping spot. Simply STOP CAMPING. No clan has EVER.. EVER. EVER EVER EVER beaten a clan I have been in by camping. Camping isn't effective. So what you do is make it EASIER for the campers? Give me a break.

It's pathetic the way you think.
I'm sorry.

jitspoe

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2005, 09:41:31 PM »
As pathetic as throwing a hissy fit and quitting the server when I wanted to test out experimental settings in a scrim?  I'm sorry I don't have time to match every minute of every day like some of you, but at least let me experience the problems first hand.

You've made a valid point about the flag carrier hiding, and it's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, as I've discussed in other threads, but I don't think it's fair to throw out the entire concept based on a somewhat unrelated flaw.

I don't intend to make it easier for the campers, but rather make it easier for the people who have genuine strategies and plans of action as opposed to mere individual skill.

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2005, 09:52:34 PM »

Nah. You're just making it easier for people to hide. It's doing nothing more. And as for that day, I wanted to MATCH. not waste my time with an 'experimental queer scrim'. If you want to play one of those matches then schedule it and I'd be glad to one day. I just didnt want to then.

Please do throw out the concept. It's horrible. I'm just waiting for the day you force these settings onto everyone like everything else you changed. Next week I'll be playing a match with gorilla launchers and floppy clown shoes.

Do you not realize that 'good' players disagree with the changes, and people who blow WANT them to change? Do you not see the connection there? They just want you to make everything easier for them. Not worth putting in the practice if the all mighty god of DP is gonna make it easier. You already changed the ball flight which made it a HELL of a lot easier. Now impact grens at 80% of the kills. Why shoot when you can toss a banana grenade and blow up the whole team? Made it much easier. Also, you dont have to worry about getting capped on now, cause guess what.. you CANT CAP. And NOW, you can't get shot when camping like a fn newbie because no one can find you. GOOD JOB. Why not force us to play on foreign servers where we ping 600? That way its more 'fair' for people who arent as good.




D out.

jimmy

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2005, 10:02:13 PM »
... and now the enemy knows your strategic positioning because the eliminated player is reporting it.  Strategy is almost pointless once the first guy is out.  It's straightforward confrontation from there on out.  You can't set up traps, ambushes, or surprise attacks

Ambushes?  When does anyone setup an ambush in DP?  The game is too fast paced to try to get someone and set up a trap or ambush.

loial21

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2005, 11:07:28 PM »

Nah. You're just making it easier for people to hide. It's doing nothing more. And as for that day, I wanted to MATCH. not waste my time with an experimental queer scrim. If you want to play one of those matches then schedule it and I'd be glad to one day. I just didn't want to then.

Please do throw out the concept. It's horrible. I'm just waiting for the day you force these settings onto everyone like everything else you changed. Next week I'll be playing a match with gorilla launchers and floppy clown shoes.

Do you not realize that Good players disagree with the changes, and people who blow WANT them to change? Do you not see the connection there? They just want you to make everything easier for them. Not worth putting in the practice if the all mighty god of DP is gonna make it easier. You already changed the ball flight which made it a HELL of a lot easier. Now impact grens at 80% of the kills. Why shoot when you can toss a banana grenade and blow up the whole team? Made it much easier. Also, you dont have to worry about getting capped on now, cause guess what.. you CANT CAP. And NOW, you can't get shot when camping like a fn newbie because no one can find you. GOOD JOB. Why not force us to play on foreign servers where we ping 600? That way its more 'fair' for people who arent as good.




D out.
Change and adapt or not and complain.  Digimon, whom I remember.  Perhaps not. Perhaps you can play more public and teach us newbies what this game is all about. You can do it!! Lead by example. I  understand things that sucks and how I dont like them. :)  You want good competition? Teach, dont taunt. Be nice. Show others.  Or is keeping knowledge best not shared?  Hmmm game ethics. 

*edit I suck above all, nuthing personal to anyone.
 

digi

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2005, 12:37:22 AM »
Change and adapt or not and complain.  Digimon, whom I remember.  Perhaps not. Perhaps you can play more public and teach us newbies what this game is all about. You can do it!! Lead by example. I  understand things that sucks and how I dont like them. :)  You want good competition? Teach, dont taunt. Be nice. Show others.  Or is keeping knowledge best not shared?  Hmmm game ethics.

*edit I suck above all, nuthing personal to anyone.
 

?



What do you want me to teach you?
You pick up a gun and shoot the other team.
It's not a hard game to understand..?

You fail to realize that if you don't join a clan you really won't learn anything new. Playing vs people you're better then doesn't teach you anything. It just boosts your ego because you have a higher score then people.. If you want to learn how to play well you gotta join a clan and start matching. That's where its at.  ;)

Blitz

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2005, 02:54:14 PM »
It would be neat if the game were played more like this, but in reality, it doesn't matter where your teammates are when they die, because they can simply tell you where the enemy is after the fact.

If the game was played more like this, people wouldn't be complaining. I can't control the 99% of the community that isn't capable of playing at this level.

If you know where your teammates are when they die, why do you need them to tell you?

I don't really find it appropriate to lighten recon as a "slow wallhack."

Here's a few reasons, most of which have already been mentioned:


(1) wallhacking is a CHEAT, a third party exploit... recon is available to everyone on an equal field.

(2) Recon only reveals relative position, and requires knowledge of the map that a wallhack clearly would not. As stated, a _good_ player isn't going to have his location pinpointed because they are almost always in constant movement.

(3) Recon is much more influential on the larger, multi-path/multi-flag maps. As stated, you must know the map in order to utilize the recon. Now, in 1vs4 situations/etc against an experienced team, the single player is all but doomed without any recon. I would expect huge score changed during these situations, since a good team could almost always maximize their score by confusing the opponent. At the very least, recon gives the lone guy a small chance to minimize loss. Have you ever tried getting recon about four opponents simultaneously while running and shooting? Not quite like a wallhack, IMO.

(4) You can still use teamwork and strategy, even if your opponent "knows" where you are. IE, a popular strategy on c1 in a 3 vs. 1 situation, is that the lone defender will be at the bd/main doors, and there will be two offenive players simultaneously rush the water-> main / bd -> bd flag. The defender has to choose to deal with one or the other, and thus there will be a flag grabbed and a 1vs2 situation at the very best. Is this not a strategic manuever, regardless of the opponents knowledge of your location?

(5) Finally, something that is probably done by only a handfull of the best players, faking routes to encourage false recon. IE, I fake going from BD Flag #2 on c1 to their main, knowing the guys getting recon.. then i quickly make a 180 out of the blue and go towards the backdoor exit. You can even do circles of movement as if you can't make up your mind.. when really your only trying to confuse your opponent with a strange recon pattern....

S8NSSON

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Re: Dead-Man Recon
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2005, 03:09:11 PM »
Here's something funny (on that fake out note, kind of).

Using voice recon in practices where some of the people are on your team, and some aren't. It's funny to hear the other team getting voice recon on you. I will often make all kinds of crazy moves just to see how the person giving recon handles it, and to try to judge the lag between when I make my moves, to when I hear the recon announced. On voice recon about three unnatural movements in a row will throw recon off for a split second. I imagine with text recon in could take two moves, and the recovery time may be significantly extended.