Special op: Back in buisness

[Clipz]

Maybe learning the 5 new maps will add a freshness to the game

Who knows but probably not. No offense JMR they could be great maps, just interest isn't quite there right now.

[prozajik]

The idea is nice, tho the problem is it has been prolonged for too long. If you didnt post about it i would have totally forgot it.

Anyway, i guess we would be up for participating, but i dont know if we would be able to find the time to do it (altho you said that there would be few days window to get the match done). University is keeping me and spain occupied, while picky has to work to feed his starving children. I guess we might be able to make it tho, especially with the window mentioned above.

As for the support, i am still willing to make locs for your spcup maps, even tho my plan to remake all the locs got ruined (basically i thought university starts month later heh ^^) so i did only few maps.
Also, if i was able to find some time i would be glad to help you stream/commentate matches. My internet sucks atm, so i cant stream while playing, but hopefully i will be able to sort it out.
If you need anything else let me know. GL

PS:

....
proza - Released a pretty good map.
....

OMGOMG someone mentioned me in mapping post, i can leave this world in peace now!
Rick <3 ^^

EDIT:

To the current spcup map: Looks like your mapping style is similar to Robinhoods from the screenshots. At least, that's who it reminded me of while looking at it. The way the base is formatted at the moment (purely from screenshots and may be completely wrong) - looks similar to Greenhill (but larger). Make sure the right side of base isn't the only easy path to grab, otherwise sitting on flag is too easy to camp.

Honestly, i feel like its diferent to RH style, tho i havent played that much of his maps so cant judge it correctly. He has some nice ways there (i guess you can get on high where the two crates are). And if you look closely, there are 2 ways to flag, right and left (dunno which you meant, but still there are 2 ways already :p). If he adds some kind of ramp so you can even fast grab from front, it would be make up for a nice gameplay.

[JMR]

After a hard day at work, I think someone needs a cup of tea


New spcup map incoming today By JMR and Mission

[SuperMAn]

I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.


What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead?  DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to  your team.  I think it makes matches incredibly stale. 
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.

I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do  you think?

[Mission]

I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.


What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead?  DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to  your team.  I think it makes matches incredibly stale. 
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.

I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do  you think?

We are not even sure yet that people will accept the new maps, if we did this I doubt anyone would play. It has become a crucial part of the game probably since the start- atleast as long as I have played, I really can't imagine it any other way. I know it has been talked about before though so we could trial it somehow. imo this league should be exactly what the masses want, just with new maps.

[MyeRs]

I have a suggestion for your tournaments/league or whatever this is.


What do you think about disabling the ability to spec members of the other team while you are dead?  DP is the only game I know of where you can watch the enemies every move while you are dead and relay that information to  your team.  I think it makes matches incredibly stale. 
I think it would also even out the playing field a bit, since newer players aren't the best at giving recon.

I have been thinking about doing this on my match servers, what do  you think?

No. I'm guessing the league is in hopes of getting the matching community to be a bit more active by adding competitiveness.

If that's the goal, making ANY change is going to get some people to refuse to play. Maps where it's so easy to revive cap (like DP has MANY of) - or with SOO many paths, would become MORE stale. DP maps were made for recon purposes. People complained saying they'd quit over HR4 textures - something that makes the game visually better.

I don't think a game that has lasted over 10 years can be said to have stale gameplay. I don't think gameplay is the issue at all. The average person would find every game stale after 5+ years, it's just the average person doesn't sit in the same game for that length of time like they have in DP. It makes DP unique.

Do not change something that could cause people not to want to play when you'll already have a hard time getting enough teams as is.

[Toxiic]

No. I'm guessing the league is in hopes of getting the matching community to be a bit more active by adding competitiveness.

If that's the goal, making ANY change is going to get some people to refuse to play. Maps where it's so easy to revive cap (like DP has MANY of) - or with SOO many paths, would become MORE stale. DP maps were made for recon purposes. People complained saying they'd quit over HR4 textures - something that makes the game visually better.

I don't think a game that has lasted over 10 years can be said to have stale gameplay. I don't think gameplay is the issue at all. The average person would find every game stale after 5+ years, it's just the average person doesn't sit in the same game for that length of time like they have in DP. It makes DP unique.

Do not change something that could cause people not to want to play when you'll already have a hard time getting enough teams as is.

Reconing=Wallhaxking. So I'd say disable this.

[SuperMAn]

I understand that people don't like change.. But being able to constantly recon your enemies exact position just seems silly.  I think disabling this might encourage less experienced players to participate in competitive games.  Don't you want to actually have to think for yourself when you play? Instead of mindlessly listening to your teams perfect recon?

[Clipz]

If there was no recon how would we ever kill senix, greenz or starz. Camping would be more of an issue than it is now.

[Toxiic]

I understand that people don't like change.. But being able to constantly recon your enemies exact position just seems silly.  I think disabling this might encourage less experienced players to participate in competitive games.  Don't you want to actually have to think for yourself when you play? Instead of mindlessly listening to your teams perfect recon?

True. Not sure why people have to recon. Does that make them a better player? Nope. A good player doesnt need reconning to figure out a player or where he's at, he wants more suspense. Reconning takes that factor out, if players know where the enemy team is or is heading, what fun is that? I believe some players need to try to play without recon, it will show them how good of a player they really are. Might as well have a server that has wallhacks. But, the sad part is, that some maps are heavily based on reconning. For example good 3v3+ maps are based on reconning. Imagine how many times people would be capped on, if no reconning was preformed. I mean, simple maps/old school maps were designed so reconning wasn't needed. Those were maps.

[not_payl_obviously]

Camping would be more of an issue than it is now.

This.

A good player doesnt need reconning to figure out a player or where he's at, he wants more suspense.

Suspense? Sure, you get to flag and you can guess where enemy will camp.

To make you sad: There is no way to prevent people from using recon right now. There probably already is a anti-black hack to make you see even if server wants you to be blacked out. If there isn't making one is as easy as hacking jitspoe anticheat or recompiling game. It's just too easy to make, I wonder why people seek working wallhacks when they can compile 'fixed' renderer themselves. Probably they can't afford Visual Studio, lawl. #WeNeedPAC

[SuperMAn]

Whether you guys like it or not camping/defending is a legitimate tactic....  And you have to remember it goes both ways... Defenders won't know exactly where the attackers are if this change is made.  I think it could be argued that camping is more of a problem now because defenders have almost perfect information.

You can still give recon without being able to constantly see the enemy when you are dead.  It would just be like in every other game where you tell your teammates where you died, where the person who killed you was, what potential direction they were heading.

The more I think about this the more I am convincing myself to make this change on at least a few of my match servers.  It is just so absurd that you can always know the exact position of your enemies. 

[omni]

I think that stopping recon can be good, to stop campers people would stop playing those types of maps, Getting rid of recon wouldn't be that bad, may slow the game pace down and make more people be cautions probably the games more tense and allow newer teams to be able to stand a chance, but do we really want to change this game to be like every other one, maps with 2 flags separated now like prolandr or castle1 are examples where you can have two teams and one could give perfect recon but still lose 50-0. Maybe settings don't need to change maps do.

[MyeRs]

The more I think about this the more I am convincing myself to make this change on at least a few of my match servers.  It is just so absurd that you can always know the exact position of your enemies. 

It's absurd? What makes it absurd? Because OTHER games don't have it? That's hardly a reason to call it absurd. Most other games also wont have the same length of life that DP2 had. The games lasted this long, and has always had a form of a competitive scene during its years. The gameplay is not a problem. But, hypothetically if you do heres a negative side effect to your change:

What makes DP different to survive this long? As "sad" as it may sound, it's due to friendship bonds. People leave and come back for their friends more than the game itself. They enjoy playing with a specific group of people. Notice how when people left the game, they often left with their friends. Remove recon and you remove necessity for voice communication. In continuation, not going on voice communication lowers bonds created, and then you'll see less real bonds created. The majority of this game for the last 5 years has been people getting their friends back into the game to keep up the competition.

Not only is Recon a huge part of what makes DP2 unique, but it provides a benefit to how a small community is run. Small communities are run by everyone knowing eachother. Right now, every NA team sits on Prozak TS3 and can communicate with any other team. Don't change whats not broken.

Changing something because other games don't have it is not smart. Why copy other games that are ahead, instead of keeping the few unique things DP has. Recon being a majort part of DP. It's so fast pace that without recon the gameplay will be more stale as once someone grabs they'll just sit on flag - the more "confident" player will come out on top EVERY time. The person who grabs first is at a HUGE advantage. Forcing trades by hiding to win a game becomes unstoppable. DP works. Don't change it to copy other games gameplay wise, as it's lasted a long enough time to prove it's worth.

THAT BEING SAID, its your servers. Do what you'd like with them. It's just an idea that will cause Europeans to not match vs NA using your servers, as switching from 1 style to the other is dumb, and NA's will probably choose to go with Prozaks. Basically making it your server settings do not benefit the matching scene. Unless EVERY server did it as a test, it'd be counter productive.

[SuperMAn]

What makes DP different to survive this long? As "sad" as it may sound, it's due to friendship bonds. People leave and come back for their friends more than the game itself. They enjoy playing with a specific group of people. Notice how when people left the game, they often left with their friends. Remove recon and you remove necessity for voice communication. In continuation, not going on voice communication lowers bonds created, and then you'll see less real bonds created. The majority of this game for the last 5 years has been people getting their friends back into the game to keep up the competition.

Not only is Recon a huge part of what makes DP2 unique, but it provides a benefit to how a small community is run. Small communities are run by everyone knowing eachother. Right now, every NA team sits on Prozak TS3 and can communicate with any other team. Don't change whats not broken.

Changing something because other games don't have it is not smart. Why copy other games that are ahead, instead of keeping the few unique things DP has. Recon being a majort part of DP. It's so fast pace that without recon the gameplay will be more stale as once someone grabs they'll just sit on flag - the more "confident" player will come out on top EVERY time. The person who grabs first is at a HUGE advantage. Forcing trades by hiding to win a game becomes unstoppable. DP works. Don't change it to copy other games gameplay wise, as it's lasted a long enough time to prove it's worth.

THAT BEING SAID, its your servers. Do what you'd like with them. It's just an idea that will cause Europeans to not match vs NA using your servers, as switching from 1 style to the other is dumb, and NA's will probably choose to go with Prozaks. Basically making it your server settings do not benefit the matching scene. Unless EVERY server did it as a test, it'd be counter productive.

I don't think changing this would remove the necessity for voice communication.  You still need to coordinate with your team while you are alive.  You can still let your team know where you died, enemies last position, etc..  You could still spec your teammates.
I can't see how not being able to see your enemy during a match will have any effect on the community knowing eachother.  You can still sit on TS3 and talk to whoever you want.  Maybe you could even have some fun matches with both teams in the same channel if you didn't have to constantly recon the enemies position.

I don't want it to change just because other games have it, it just doesn't make sense to be able to constantly see your enemy (which is why other games don't allow it).

Why would the first person to grab just sit on the flag?  Not sure I am following you there..  Wouldn't it be harder to trade if you don't know exactly where everyone is?

I disagree with your last point saying that changing this on one or two servers will be counter-productive.  If a couple teams want to try it out they have the ability to do so.  If they don't like it they never have to use that server again.  If everyone is unwilling to try it then the servers will just sit there unused.  I'm not trying to force this on everyone.  I just think it would make matches more competitive and interesting.

[MyeRs]

When people are entering the community they often do not want to get voice communication (although its getting more and more common to get it as gaming gets larger). A lot of new players who post on forums say "no mic, no ts3" - so without recon, the necessity is even less than already is, so it'd make it less likely people would be forced into getting it. DP has never been that big of a strategy and teamwork game, a good player can single handedly 1v3. I wouldn't bother using TS3 anymore for matches if this were the case, I much rather listen to music.

In regards to flag fights - I'll give an example. Score: 45-44, 1 vs 1, no recon, the team with 45 grabs first - he can go hide. If he's hiding, there's no way he can be reconned. Therefore, the person who grabbed second must sit around base, or on flag, and peek at spots, hoping that the flag carrier doesn't randomly run in from another point. It would be a huge risk for the person who grabbed second to make any sort of play. So now, revives happen, he's stuck on their flag, he gets revived, games over. WITH RECON, the same scenario can be overcome. With the speed of the game and amount of paths maps have, recon is essential. The game evolved into a game that revolved around recon. The maps are generally made for recon, as that's how they've always been played. Also, juking recon is an efficient strategy to outplay people. Recon servers as a big reason the game play is not stale.

Others don't allow it because they are different games with different communities, different play styles within the game, different history to the game. In comparing games, this is the last of the things that would come to mind as a reason they are successful. Games that are currently successful would be equally successful if they allowed you to recon your opponents. It's something that people get adjusted to, and doesn't actually negatively or positively affect the gameplay, it just makes it different. DP's maps are constructed in a way where recon is needed.

Sure, the servers will probably go unused, unless two NA teams want to try it out. But I don't see people liking it, for the simple reason that the average person hates big changes to something they previously liked. It can be seen with League of Legends as well, every new season people are complaining - but by mid season nobody even remembers what got changed. People don't like change, but if they like the game they can deal with any changes over time.

[Mission]

I think that the only scenario where recon should be abolished is if matches ever had a short 5 second respawn delay- like a koth match where recon wouldn't really be needed (simple koth maps and 5 seconds is too quick to recon anyway). Everybody likes the standard 60s CTF and some people think speed servers ruined the game, so that wont happen.