spcup_kingdom beta 3

[JMR]

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for such in-depth feedback in a such short space of time! It really can make a big difference. So thank you for your time and efforts!

• Added black fern to bug list

I am pretty confused right now though, seems like a lot of different opinions about my map are shared. Prozajik's feedback is a perfect example of how to post gameplay feedback. He not only showed what he'd like to see improved but he suggested some solutions.

myers

An example of this is that if you look at maps DT has made - there are jumps that "experienced" players still don't make every try. There's a lot of room for failure. And every jump can be started from hundreds of spots. They don't feel forced. To this day, there are new jumps being found in maps like carp/pforest etc.. Pforest was out for like 3-4yrs before people found the midswitch speedjump.

Stuff like that increases the skill cap to make it WORTH learning. A map like this - once you know the routes there's nothing to learn. You can camp the entrances easy - and better players don't get too much benefit.

If I am not mistaken, this maps has TONS of jumps, not forced at all either. Ask clipz, he found LOADS of jumps that I didn't even plan, maybe you are just not as a good jumper as him. I'm not sure. What I am sure of though, you can do many speedjumps in my maps from LOADS of areas and use the jumps to go to different directions / different angles / different heights. If that is not variation, I don't know what is!

About 'plenty of room for failure', prozajik said that some jumps were too hard! He is experienced. Also, watching iNte play this map, I have seen them fail many times!

Your reply has been contradicted by feedback I have heard and what I have seen with my own eyes.

The jump feedback you provided is the only feedback I disagree with, the rest of your feedback was spot on.

prozajik

Thank you for such in-depth feedback! I will defiantly take your suggestions on board! I have some ideas on how I can improve the flow of mid on this map I will post pictures of the ideas very soon!

Also,
"Add ramp to High ways, which shoots you to the bridge without having to DJ it."
I think this would be a great idea , but I'm not sure if I will loose 'myers points' for making a jump easier, being as 'experienced players' cannot make that jump. If I can make it at least once a match, experienced players should be able to make it at least 10x as more. But I think I will make the ramp to make it easier.


Aveiro
Thanks for making the effort to post feedback too!

"- You could maybe add few more planks on this jump, because from gameplay I think it was a bit hard to do this jump well."
Again, this could loose me some "myers points", this will improve flow, but he says that it's better to have harder jumps that even 'experienced players' like you cannot do every time.

Then again, I personally think adding more planks there is a good idea

I will try to make that wall that doesn't look nice look better

I have a few ideas for a BD, I will post images here. Your idea seems really nice




Images coming soon of ideas I have
• make the paths to mid wider, to minimize spraying (thanks to myers gameplay feedback)
• A few ideas for BDs in mid (thanks to prozajik and avi)
• An idea to move capspot to the centralized ditch at base. (thanks to capo and myers)

Thank you to the rest of you who posted bugs and feedback! I have read every reply and took it to heart. b2 will defiantly be a lot better

[BASEBALLDUDE]

Who cares about "MyeRs points"? He's not your boss. He's just one guy with one opinion. You have a lot of contradicting opinions in this thread so you must decide which opinions make the most logical sense and listen to those. Myers wants harder speed jumps? Make one or two that are extremely challenging. Others want some jumps to be easier? Make sure you have jumps that vary in skill level so mediocre jumpers don't feel left out.

[MyeRs]

^ Dude shut the intercourse up. Nobody is saying my points are superior, but I certainly know more than you in every aspect of this game. Posting to say "GREAT MAP" is useless. Every map released could be improved upon, so don't post if you don't have the knowledge to help it improve. I got people who weren't playing the game to get on and playtest it on a EU server, and after 1 game those were the joined thoughts. All the people who played in that play test have played 6+ years. We know what we're talking about. He wants this to be part of a series of maps for tournaments/leagues, so we're giving as much feedback as possible so it gets to a level where it'll make us want to participate. Cause at this stage, there's no way I'd play this map by choice.

Sure, there may have been "harder jumps" but the general path of the map was 1 fast and easy speed that felt awkward due to the map being an 8.

The mid into base paths provides a huge gameplay flaw. The actual base (with connecting paths etc.. don't get used when they actually could provide good gameplay.) The biggest problem with this map is the transition from base to mid.

@JMR - No, Clipz is not a better jumper l0l. He likely spent more time looking for stuff, I followed main paths and did 1 game on it. So, sure may not have found them all, but the necessary jumps (and likely the fastest ways) aren't hard.

Another "less relevant" and my 'personal preference' point - which I have told Clipz before when he asked me about gameplay in maps (and he listened to it) -- "switches" and "control points" go a long way in making a good map. For that, you also tend to need to have a larger scale/height in the map. (ie, all of DT's maps have high/low points, making it always feel big even on narrow areas). And they typically all have high points near mid where you can control the majority of mid - and high points in base where you can control the majority of the base. Typically, being on a high point gives you a better view of more area, so you are at an advantage. Your map seems like all 1 level "mainly" (other than mid, which again, to me felt awkward running around). I'm not sure the best way to explain why it was awkward, so i'll try to do that...

LAST POINT @JMR: My criticism is to make the map good, all of it aside this is the best map you've made - but even mappers who are more skilled than you like Cusoman tend to make awkward maps. It's hard to get it 'perfect' or even 'playable' for the most part. (Given how little success anyone other than DT has had in mapping in this community). But the map is visually good, and plays better than any map you've made - but it just doesn't play at a level where I see people wanting to do a tournament on it.

[JMR]

Myers, pforest's main speeds are very easy. There are other speeds in my map that are very good, but are hard. I don't understand/don't agree with your points about jumps. I think it's because I have played this map on quite a few matches, so I know probably a lot more jumps on it than you do now. (Thanks to clipz)

Anyway, I agree with you myers, tournament quality is very different from the average map. It needs a competitive flow. I designed this map to have one, but mid didn't turn out as I planned, so b2 will be a lot better. I believe this map is tournament standard once I sort the high/low problem that prozajik pointed out.

Thanks to proza, I now have a good idea of how I can make this map tournament worthy

I did find a method of making the castle-to-bridge-to-caste on mid jump almost every time, may make a demo of it so people can learn this jump, otherwise, I'll make it easier and put a ramp there.

b2 will make mid less of a bottleneck and will lead more gameplay to base

EDIT
Just had a really long talk with myers and he came up with some awesome suggestions for base.

I will be moving first flag back to it's original spot and moving 2nd flag ontop of the gate. I will be making a tunnel from the high path to where 2nd flag used to be and that can be used like a switch.

Prozajik had an good idea for mid low and that also will be in the next beta.

[Rick]

My feedback:
This is just MY OPINION, not everyone will agree

Aesthetics:
It's a very nice looking map!

1. This pillar is very boring! I think a new pillar would look a lot better, very quick fix. (Also posted some examples of pillars, very quick examples haha).
 

2. This support brace is also very boring and is obviously overlapping with the other brushes, I think it should be re-done, very easy fix.


3. This edge comes to a point, maybe round it off a bit more. (Never been a fan of walls coming to points, but it may just be me).


4. Misaligned brush.


5. And again


6. This corner is very dark, especially compared to the other sides corner. Maybe experiment with some light entities with low values and see if you can make it a bit lighter, but still a shadow (hopefully I explained that well ).


7. This 'hump' looks very weird and unnatural IMO. (It also comes to a point, which looks very weird ).


8. These wood planks are at too much of an angle and the texture is very low res.


9. Try using some light entities to get rid of the weird lighting on the ladder.


10. In-game this triangle of grass (on the wall) is the only one not lit in the area. (If I remember correctly). It stands out a lot when running towards it


11. Some weird lighting glitches that you might be able to fix with light entities (not sure).


12. These kind of gates usually have spikes on the bottom, I think it'd look pretty cool in this situation. (Could always make them 'mist' if they get in the way).


13. Weird lighting glitch again, could possibly fix this one by moving the brush a unit.


14. I think I've said this before but the little bracket under the light looks silly. I'd just remove them as they're against the wall anyway.


15. Misalignment


16. The rock wall looks really weird here, might just be me though.


17. Maybe chuck one of your lanterns in here, it's very dark.


18. Ugly pillar IMO, maybe just give it another go? (Again, might just be me).


19. Is there an invisible brush somewhere on this wall? Whenever I hit the rock and go over, I get caught on something.


20. IMO the 'hump' doesn't make much sense with a brick texture, maybe make it so it looks like dirt on top of the bricks?


21. Not sure if it's the low res texture or just this sign in general that doesn't look great. Maybe give it a redesign?


22. This is the same wall as before, I noticed it also came to a point on this side also


23. The current lighting makes this brush uh, not sure how to say it besides saying that the whole brush is very noticeable and doesn't flow with the rest of the wall.


24. These brushes look very weird, I think someone already mentioned it.


25. I think it'd look nice if the tree had a shadow, not sure if you know how to or not but I have also linked a picture that should help.

Like I said, these are mostly MY OPINION on what you should fix. I am not trying to be a detective, I'm just trying to help make this map great.

I'll also post about gameplay as soon as I get to play it with people.

[FusSioN]

Well there are some corners that are unlightened. And yeah, I love the jumps and speed ^^. I can't name those but make a wall so you cannot see the whole map border

[JMR]

Thank you very much Rick for the suggestions!

[JMR]

spcup_kingdom_b2

-coming soon-

[BASEBALLDUDE]

^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.

[Aveiro]

^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.

get a life

[LaZeRs]

^Should that be classified as porn? Cause that just gave me a hard one.

Dude, really...

Judging by that screenshot, I think beta 2's going to be a lot more different than beta 1.

[JMR]

Beta 2 is out.



Things I need to do for b3:
• Fix weird hole in metal gate
• Make bd to mid low larger so you don't knock your head
• Make mid-low to bd's entrance have a clip brush so you don't loose speed when entering.
• Fix random wall texture on mid bridge entrence
• Fix brush misalignment on cave switch to mid

• Some how make the light entities not so 'white' and fit in more

[MyeRs]

Not as awkward, and a lot of gameplay issues fixed, have to play test to get more fedback.

[Aveiro]

Not as awkward, and a lot of gameplay issues fixed, have to play test to get more fedback.

It looks still pretty easy campable from mid :/ also this position of flags is better for campers. You can now sit on 2nd flag and they can't grab you.

- This looks weird in my opinion




But good job with this beta.

[MyeRs]

It looks still pretty easy campable from mid :/ also this position of flags is better for campers. You can now sit on 2nd flag and they can't grab you.

Look at the majority of maps people make that HAVE SUCCESS in DP. The majority, you can see both flags from 1 point. Often times, it's from sitting on flag 2. The reason for that is because EVERY team has different styles of plays. If you try to remove camping, it's like maps that try to remove rushing. It doesn't work. It's the reason mid flags don't work in DP. Camping is a style of play, and also one typically used by lesser skilled players as it's easier. So it gives them a chance.

The old flag placements were just random, it was like you just made a map and randomly placed 2 flags with the sole purpose of stopping camping - rather than improving gameplay. These are in "central" base points, so now there's actually a more defined base. Before, it was hard to distinguish what base was. It also incorporates the commonly used "speed jump to 2"

As for mid, I agree, it's still awkwardish, there's still problems with the map, there's still flaws but it's improved. The new dirt path to high path makes it easier to deal with "forced revive capping" as it plays similar to a Pforest wet/dry bridge connection. And the added "mid low" to "high path" path (your last screenshot) works to make the bottleneck/linefest mid a bit more tolerable.

All in all, the flag placement is MUCH better and actually makes for better gameplay. There's very few maps currently played where you can't see flags from 1 point. (Sphouse, Carp, Castle1 are the ones to come to mind, and out of those I only ever see carp played - which even at that is only typically by more experienced players.) If you remove camping, you put teams without voice recon at a huge disadvantage as well. You need to incorporate every form of gameplay, camping/rushing/controlling to make a good map, each form of gameplay you remove makes the gameplay more static and less interesting.

[jitspoe]

Is b1 still available for download?  I believe that is the version to be judged, unless we're just going with the latest version...

Edit: Looking around on B2, I noticed on the grate/gate that the triangles were kind of messed up.  Which qbsp compiler are you using?

[LaZeRs]

The only thing I don't like is that it's so easy to get shot getting the high flag. Although I like the placement, you can get lined easily.

[ic3y]

Code: [Select]

ftp://www.otb-server.de/pub/Maps/beta/spcup_kingdom_b1.bsp

[JMR]

Beta 3 is released. See OP for downloads.

As far as gameplay goes, there's not really much I can do now, a part from trying different things.

Instead of tinkering further with the gameplay on this map, I'd prefer to start my next spcup, as this one is currently playable and fun.


There are 2 weird lighting glitches that only happen on one side. I use the latest fixed compiler and have no idea how to fix it. I've tried a lot.

[BASEBALLDUDE]

There are 2 weird lighting glitches that only happen on one side. I use the latest fixed compiler and have no idea how to fix it. I've tried a lot.

Experiment with light entities, change sun angle by 1 degree, move brush(es) slightly, use phong shading, and if none of those things work, give up.

At this point I agree, just work on your next spcup map until sufficient feedback appears on this thread to make beta 4 have enough changes.