Author Topic: _ (Read 55285 times)

Lunatic · « **Reply #80 on:** August 01, 2006, 02:46:26 PM »

Okay.

After looking at everything again, and reading through this thread. I'm going to have to agree with Y2J and whoever else that has the same arguement as him (don't remember who, but I know there was at least one more. Probably dt). This is that a forfet is not justified because one or two people breaking a couple rules that don't directly affect the outcome ie. mm1, talking excrement to refs etc. However, I agree with suspensions. Like Y2J said, if you look at all other games/sports if a person does something that "breaks the rules" of the game or sport, he is punished not the whole team.

Word.

S8NSSON · « **Reply #81 on:** August 01, 2006, 02:57:52 PM »

Yeah i've read every post here, and have been following the thread for days now.
Should Bob be suspended? Sure.
Should eR33t be forfeited? Absolutely not.

Whoever talked about that Landis guy...pluh-lease man. He is an individual, not a team. Even in that sport being on a team is not even really being on a team. You ride for a team, but win or lose (or get stripped of awards) on your own singular merit. If one of his "team" mates would have broken the rules it would not have effected him in the least.

I think the PCBup authorities acted with extreme bias towards an entire team in a matter that should have been handled at the individual level.

The question is, will they do the right thing and set the record straight?

PS: I don't care for any comments to my post. I know what every one of you thinks on this matter. I waited till the thread wound down a good bit to say my peace so I wouldn't get involved in the squabbles.

Do the right thing.

Gibb · « **Reply #82 on:** August 01, 2006, 05:59:32 PM »

I believe we have set the record straight by explaining our reasoning behind the suspensions and forfeitures. Yes, we all understand an individual spoke out when he was not supposed to and earned his team a forfeit. I understand that some people think 1 persons actions should not effect his entire team.

However, we the league believe that because this is a team game where all individuals MUST work together to succeed, all teams will be held responsible for their members actions. Immaturity has run rampant through out this community, I think we can all agree with this. By putting the responsibility on all participating clans to keep their members and teammates in order, we believe this is the best way to maintain a high level of sportsmanship and maturity through league games.

Y2J · « **Reply #83 on:** August 01, 2006, 06:31:40 PM »

No gibb, what you have done is failed at upholding a level of fairness. Even one of the ch1ll members says it shouldn't have resulted in a team forfeit. The rules can be changed. This rule in particular is not a good one. By you the league, you mean you, you are the one who made the decision. I was told from a high ranking official in Pbcup that he didn't feel a forfeit should have been given either... This decision came down on you, and you couldn't look at it from any other view then how to make eR33t the most angry. Forget fairness in a decission, rule, whatever it may be.

Ignore the player, and get him suspended after the match. You don't take away a team's effort. It's bullcrap, and if it it's a sign of what's to come on decisions it's pathetic. For once think about how fair a rule actually is, and how much it effects the game, rather then just say it's there.

Brewsky · « **Reply #84 on:** August 01, 2006, 07:33:22 PM »

why is it so hard to understand that having to ignore someone on a server is ALREADY diverting attention away from the match at hand, I dont get why you are pushing this subject Y2J. I'm happy er33t has been held responsible for this. YOU HANDED OUT THE PASSWORD TO YOUR TEAMMATES. No one would have talked in the first place if you didnt abuse the rights to the password. The team should'nt be held responsible for complete disregard to a rule? I'm failing to see how several of you guys who I know are educated, are responding like this. Are you telling me Zidane headbutting an Italian only had reprocussions on his own image, or the representation of his country? cmon guys, you KNOW better. Hold bob accountable, but hold the team accountable for a poor decision to hand out the password. Y2J... you should be above and over this, I've known you for awhile...

Y2J · « **Reply #85 on:** August 01, 2006, 08:27:58 PM »

I didn't do excrement. lmfao. I'm failing to see how this rule is fair to the team. Which is what we want, fairness for each team.

talking is an individual thing, not a team thing.

if bob starts talkin in mm1, who am I to stop him, I have no physical way of doing so.

jitspoe · « **Reply #86 on:** August 01, 2006, 09:09:50 PM »

Handing out passwords to your teammates is a team thing. The reasoning for doing this, from my understanding, was so that the whole team could complain in mm1 about ch1ll taking too long to join up.

Y2J · « **Reply #87 on:** August 01, 2006, 09:47:37 PM »

Blitz didn't say one thing in mm1, yet he deserves a forfeit? I don't think so. One of the players from the other team even said it shouldn't have been a forfeit.
I don't understand why mm1 isn't enabled, and people just ignore who they dont want to hear.

People should be able to call for subs whenever they need it, especially if the captain is lagging or something.
People should be able to give a little trash talk to the other side, or compliment them. It's not the end of the world
You guys act like you'll never recover from someone saying lucky shot... that kinda crap happens all the time, it's part of any competition.

What if the captain starts saying lmfao.. lucky shot.. whatever else.. It's not the teams fault, yet they have to forfeit.. It's complete crap. The rule is faulty, yet the pbcup admins won't admit it because they feel the need to stand by their desision.. well gibb's decision... for what it's worth.

SkateR · « **Reply #88 on:** August 01, 2006, 09:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Y2J on August 01, 2006, 09:47:37 PM

Blitz didn't say one thing in mm1, yet he deserves a forfeit? I don't think so. One of the players from the other team even said it shouldn't have been a forfeit.
I don't understand why mm1 isn't enabled, and people just ignore who they dont want to hear.

People should be able to call for subs whenever they need it, especially if the captain is lagging or something.
People should be able to give a little trash talk to the other side, or compliment them. It's not the end of the world
You guys act like you'll never recover from someone saying lucky shot... that kinda crap happens all the time, it's part of any competition.

What if the captain starts saying lmfao.. lucky shot.. whatever else.. It's not the teams fault, yet they have to forfeit.. It's complete crap. The rule is faulty, yet the pbcup admins won't admit it because they feel the need to stand by their desision.. well gibb's decision... for what it's worth.

Agreed to the fullest extent. I think you guys made a bigger deal then what actually happened. It didnt have an outcome on the match, I understand the rules. Stating my opinion

Lunatic · « **Reply #89 on:** August 01, 2006, 11:01:00 PM »

Yeah Blitz never said a thing.

Then said lots of things on irc.

Xsv-Boy · « **Reply #90 on:** August 02, 2006, 01:11:01 PM »

Going into watching the demo i was thinking some consistent spam of stuff. there was only like 5 times anyone said anything in mm1 from eR33t. Lets just say this was ch1ll or xb. if oddjob deciced to say lucky shot or sumthing. would that warrent a forfeit. NO! just be fair. Just because this 1 clan has 1/2 the pbcup admins doesn't mean that calls need to go in their favor. IF i was gibb, i would have just gave bob a couple weeks off pbcup if even. mm1 is part of the game.

Lunatic · « **Reply #91 on:** August 02, 2006, 03:04:57 PM »

Bix: BoB speaking in mm1 was only part of the issue, it's that he broke rules to speak in mm1.

It seems to be the same thing being said over and by different people, and by the same people worded differently. eR33t should not have forfeited crimethink, and Bob should have been suspended.

That is not how things were decided, and eR33t dropped out due to an unfair decision as to their rule breaking.

This really should be a dead issue, no?

Y2J · « **Reply #92 on:** August 02, 2006, 03:20:54 PM »

I just want pbcup to change the rule. It feels as though a lot of people feel the same way, that one persons action should not warrant a team forfeit.
I don't care about the map in particular cause we're not even in pbcup anymore; I just don't want the same to happen in the future to anyone else.

Xsv-Boy · « **Reply #93 on:** August 02, 2006, 03:52:01 PM »

ok.. this is probaly stepping over the line but eh. week 2, CC vs ch1ll. xbain said lol once. should he be banned? should ch1ll forfeit c1 now? look at demos of week 2 CC vs ch1ll. "lol" was what he said, and he said it once.

bitmate · « **Reply #94 on:** August 02, 2006, 04:03:33 PM »

At least XtremeBain got his mm1 login legally

lekky · « **Reply #95 on:** August 02, 2006, 04:18:58 PM »

it wasnt 1 persons actions tho was it? i believe someone passed on admin details abusing their privilages.

XtremeBain · « **Reply #96 on:** August 02, 2006, 04:56:55 PM »

Quote from: Xsv-Boy on August 02, 2006, 03:52:01 PM

ok.. this is probaly stepping over the line but eh. week 2, CC vs ch1ll. xbain said lol once. should he be banned? should ch1ll forfeit c1 now? look at demos of week 2 CC vs ch1ll. "lol" was what he said, and he said it once.

Alright, so lets take a glance at the PBCup Spring 2006 Week 2 demos of -ch1ll- vs. [CC]
http://www.ch1ll.com/upload/ccweek2-castle1.dm2
http://www.ch1ll.com/upload/ccweek2-roundup.dm2
http://www.ch1ll.com/upload/ccweek2-warhouse.dm2

Quote from: bitmate on August 02, 2006, 04:03:33 PM

At least XtremeBain got his mm1 login legally

Actually no one got login. I had to change it a couple days prior because eR33t had given it out to their clanmates, and I forgot to update oddjob on what the new login was.

I think in roundup or warhouse I pressed mm1 once by accident, but didn't have the correct op-level, so it never even made its way to global chat.

Did you even look at the demos, or are you just trying bait this thread more?

Now while I'm here, I'm going to explain how the forfeit decision came down. At the time, PBCup had 5 organizers: -ch1ll-bitmate, [eR33t]DirtyTaco, .xb.gibb(formerly of Rust), .xb.oddjob, and -)MeMi(-PureBlood. I had taken a step away from organizing and was focusing on operations (website, scheduling, servers, irc, etc.). Since DirtyTaco and bitmate were members of a clan involved in the incident they weren't participating in the decision. gibb, oddjob and PureBlood made a decision together and gibb posted it on the PBCup Forums. A couple of them have already mentioned the points in this thread that the decision was based upon. It probably didn't make matters better that Blitz deleted the majority of the PBCup website and database from the PBCup webserver, and other [eR33t] members (including DirtyTaco) were supporting his actions on IRC.

I will be making some changes between our Summer and Fall seasons, and I will discuss the possibility of global chat returning, forfeit process, suspension process among other things.

If you have any more concerns with how things are handled by PBCup, feel free to leave me a PM here or send me an e-mail at XtremeBain@ch1ll.com

Blitz · « **Reply #97 on:** August 02, 2006, 05:03:03 PM »

I believe that the decision to forfeit the last map was one of both bias and poor judgment. Also, I believe that the amount of controversy directly resulting from the verdict speaks enough for its validity. The decision to withdrawal eR33t from the season was in no way related to the player suspensions; moreover, is was specific correlated to the post-match (eR33t vs. ch1ll) forfeiture of the third map . In fact, the player suspensions where both issued after the forfeit was in place on the website. Further, my personal suspension was a result of my actions in retaliation towards the aforementioned forfeiture, and in was no way correlated to the actual match.

With that said, obviously the league is in no position to overturn any current rulings. I feel that if such an overturn was made, it would only further serve as justification towards the league’s lack of structure and authority. However, I do hope that at least changes are considered within the administration towards future such situations. More specifically:

A. Rules that apply specifically to individuals (such as the use of messagemode1) should further be enforced specifically to those individuals in defiance.

B. The enforcement structure of rules should be absolute. This requires a formal definition as to the procedure wherein a rule is at liability of insubordination. Hence, if there is a clearly stated structure for enforcing rules, we will no longer be put at the mercy of personal juxtaposition (which tends toward inherent bias).

C. Completely unrelated to A and B: The pbcup.com website is the central driving mechanism behind the entire league (or at least that was the plan). However, the current state of the site is mediocre at best. After switching to the new layout for this season, most of the CSS has not even been modified to fit the new color scheme. I can hardly read half the pages due to color clashes. Further, there is a countless list of problems and bugs within the sites structure. It just saddens me to see such a half-witted attempt, when I know that so much more is capable from the creator(s).

loial21 · « **Reply #98 on:** August 03, 2006, 12:31:56 AM »

Loial likes logic. To bad it took this.

b00nlander · « **Reply #99 on:** August 03, 2006, 12:33:26 AM »

Very nice wording, Blitz, but can't you write like a normal human? I had to read it twice to understand all of it

I surely agree to what you say about enforcement of the rules, and I was even one of those putting pressure on the referees to make them enforce the rules more than in Spring Season, as breaking the rules was a big issue back then.
Now, to come back to the actualy topic, thus the forfeiture of crimethink. There are obviously 2 standpoints on this topic:
- one side says it was an individual's fault, and so only the individual should have been punished. Well, I agree that the individual should be punished, but my first reaction to the 1 week suspension was "why is he not suspended for the whole season?". That was pointed towards BoB's, not Blitz's actions.
- the other side says the team should be held responsible for the individual's actions. Additionally, there were at least 2 individuals involved in breaking the rules (DT and BoB, Blitz later on as well, but not related to crimethink). I agree to that it is the team's responsibility to have their mates follow the rules, and it is especially the team captain's responibility, as he should have some kind of authority in his team. If that person is even involved in breaking the rules by helping his mates doing so, I can't find an excuse for that. If BoB had gained access to the login from somewhere else, eR33t's captain should have shut him up anyways, and then it might have been ruled an individual's fault. I know it is not very easy to rule on this matter, as of course everyone is biased, and issues like this will probably be ruled by case law every time. I'd just like to demand some more responsibility from the team captains in any case, especially when they are as long in the game and community as all of eR33t's players.

To close this up: I hope everyone can step up and take a look at the decisions made from more than one side, if he agrees with the ruling or not. Furthermore, you should think about "what would have happened if everyone had followed the rules?", and maybe then we will all have a more pleasant continuation of this season. Thanks for reading and have a good time in PBCup.