DPleague - team ranking

[mRokita]

Hey do you have any idea how the DPLeague ranking system should work?
The main idea is that you can play as many matches as you want anytime.
The biggest problem is that every clan can play different number of matches.

[mRokita]

At the moment that's the idea:
Every team gets a random map [worth 50 points] at the beggining.
To find a match you use the WWW system or IRC.
The team that has more points is defending a map, the other team selects a map from the opponent's territory.
If the defending team wins, the map is worth 20 more points, otherwise it loses that map [the opponent doesnt get the points gained by his failed offences]

What do you think about this?

[Squeeze]

Do it like this:

http://www.gosugamers.net/counterstrike/rankings

http://www.gosugamers.net/lol/rankings

If there will be tournament, each team will gain some points and will get placed into (if they will have enought points and wins for that) quarterfinals, then semifinals, then grand finals. Champion at finals will get 1st spot, Finalist (looser) of grand finals will get 2nd spot, then from semifinals 3rd and 4th spot, 5th, etc. from quarterfinals and then team ranking of other teams (depends on their actuall points score).

After the next tournament - If there will be another team getting 1st place, they will move to the 1st spot. And just do it with the rest like before. (update actuall scores after another tournament - if they are worse or if they improved).

There will be score of team : from All time, but it will be just for info how team is doing. Team ranking system should be upgraded after every tournament and how they got placed in that tourney.

[Mission]

I think you need to explain this territory idea a bit more, I can't find the original post about it.
I get that it may be a good visual representation and will stop teams abusing use of one map (because if they own the territory for that map they get less points for winning it?) cough prolandr cough, but at the moment I am unconvinced, surely the simplicity of the system SQZ suggests is better?
Although SQZ how exactly do those rank systems work? The most important thing about this system is it should work for normal clan matches, not just tournaments.

So I think something like this may work better and it is also simple:

Every team starts on 0 points

if you beat a team with equal to or lower placing in league than your team, you gain 5 points
if you beat a team with higher placing in league you gain 10 or more points, amount of points for winning team calculated by: (5*(P1-P2) +5), where P1 is the league place of the losing team with the higher placing and P2 is the league place of the winning team with the lower placing, therefore if you beat a team 1 place above you, you get 10 points; 2 place above you, you get 15 points; etc...
If you lose to a team with equal to or higher placing than your team, you lose 5 points
If you lose to a team with lower placing in league you lose 10 points or more, amount of points for losing team calculated by: - (5*(P1-P2) +5) where P1 is the place of the losing team with the higher placing and P2 is the place of the winning team with the lower placing. Notice the minus sign on this one.
Therefore if you lose to a team ranked 1 lower than your team you lose 10 points (in effect gain -10 points); if you lose to a team ranked 2 lower you lose 15 points (in effect gain -15 points); etc...

Teams who do not play any matches will stay on 0 points and will not be counted in rankings. Once a team starts to play matches, the reliability of their ranking goes up with the amount of matches they play.

To prevent teams playing the same maps over and over again because they know they can win, you could do a map based system so if you win a map that you usually win then you gain less points. I do not like this idea tho, it prevents teams from being forced to learn new maps and change with the meta game.
Also, if the match is 2-1, e.g. dooci's team gained 1 map vs myers team, but dooci still lost, dooci's team should still get some credit for gaining a map against myers.

[Squeeze]

wtf team ranking in normal matches? I think tournaments are the right thing to determine team rankings.

[prozajik]

wtf team ranking in normal matches? I think tournaments are the right thing to determine team rankings.

Team rankings =/= Ranked league

Yes, rankings based on clan matches don't prove which team is the best (theoretically, in PB it does, because nobody actually practices for tournaments). Ranked league is something totally different and is there to motivate people to try and reach the top just like for example ranks in CS:GO or SoloQQ ranks in LoL.

Now to comment on suggested systems:
@html
Positives:
-Motivates people to fight higher ranked teams
-Motivates people to practice certain map
-Is appealing to inexperienced players
-Possibility for upsets
-Possibility for comeback
-Can motivate players to practice new maps

Negatives:
-Points on certain maps might stack up too much, because only these maps get played
-Only bo1 I suppose? Might be just unlucky day or sth, makes it bad for teams with high stacked points on a map
-No motivation for teams with high ranked maps to play matches or to accept matches


@Sqz
Not really a league ranking system, can't click the links right now tho. But from what you wrote in the post it doesn't explain anything how the point system works, only which teams have the 'right' to play in tourneys which wouldn't work for PB since the competition is so small

@Mission
Lolz, did you actually read my excel file which I made for JMR tourney? ^^ Because it's pretty much my formula except with hard coded points you win/lose, I used percentage.

Anyway,
Positives:
-Motivates lower ranked teams to play higher ranked ones
-Possibility for comeback and an upset
-With map based system it would motivate people to practice new maps probably

Negatives:
-Possibility for teams to snowball their points, if 1 team wins all the matches they will be miles away from the teams ranked lower (that's why I used percentage in my formula). I actually tried something what you suggested and ended up with rankings similar to this:
 1st 100 points
 2nd 20 points
 3rd 19 points
 4th 16 points
 5th 14 points
 ....
 given one team won every match in a tourney (yes, we are talking about clan matches here, but you get the idea)
-Doesn't motivate higher ranked teams to play matches (well kind of does, I guess you can't motivate higher ranked teams anymore than this, althogh html's system probably does slightly better job with that)
-Complicated to understand for inexperienced players

So far I like html's idea the best, but Mission is right, you might want to explain it better.

[mRokita]

We'll test the territory idea first, if it won't work, we'll test the other ideas
P. S.
The DPLeague Core is nearly finished [DPLeague Core is a kind of a log parser integrated with a SQL database and some server control functions]

[DooCi]

I like the way html said to do it

[prozajik]

We'll test the territory idea first, if it won't work, we'll test the other ideas
P. S.
The DPLeague Core is nearly finished [DPLeague Core is a kind of a log parser integrated with a SQL database and some server control functions]

Just re-read your system idea and I don't like that team loses the map instantly once they lose match. So you can have 1000 points stacked there because you wont 500x times, but once a team beats you, you lose the map. Doesn't make much sense tbh.....
Nvm re-read it for a third time lol, I guess you meant that map is worth 20 points more if the team successfully defends it and 20 less if the team fails to defend it right? It's worded pretty poorly :p

EDIT:

What you could do and would be pretty interesting IMO:
1)Each team gets random 1 map worth 50 points
2)If the points on map get drop to 0 (or below) this map gets removed from their 'map pool' and get randomly assigned new map
3)If team X challenges team Y to fight on map prolandr (team Y's map) and team X wins, they get this map added to their map pool with 20 points giving them opportunity to get challenged on more maps as well as gain points on different maps

I think this would make for quite an interesting dynamic, since high ranked teams could have some maps which would be special only to them, because they would just never lose on that map or would play teams which get the map to drop it from their 'map pool'. And it would also motivate others to play differently ranked teams just to get the map they want into map pool.

[mRokita]

@prozajik:
you were right after you had red it the second time

EDIT:

What you could do and would be pretty interesting IMO:
1)Each team gets random 1 map worth 50 points
2)If the points on map get drop to 0 (or below) this map gets removed from their 'map pool' and get randomly assigned new map
3)If team X challenges team Y to fight on map prolandr (team Y's map) and team X wins, they get this map added to their map pool with 20 points giving them opportunity to get challenged on more maps as well as gain points on different maps

I think this would make for quite an interesting dynamic, since high ranked teams could have some maps which would be special only to them, because they would just never lose on that map or would play teams which get the map to drop it from their 'map pool'. And it would also motivate others to play differently ranked teams just to get the map they want into map pool.

How can the points on map get drop to 0 (or below)?
Do you mean that 2 teams can have some map at once?
What happens when a team gets a randomly assigned map? Is it worth 0 points? or?

[mRokita]

I'm about to finish the log parser, can you explain me, prozajik?
The only thing i have to do is to apply a match.

[prozajik]

@prozajik:
you were right after you read it the second timeHow can the points on map get drop to 0 (or below)?
Do you mean that 2 teams can have some map at once?
What happens when a team gets a randomly assigned map? Is it worth 0 points? or?

Thought I was right the 3rd time ^^. That's why I assumed map can drop to 0 and you would understand what I meant by that ^^

Anyway, the way I meant it was that each team has assigned map (or multiple maps) making that their map pool. Enemies can challenge teams on maps from their map pool. Defending team gets points on their map for winning +20 and -20 for losing.
Points are distributed separately for each map, so you have 50 points on prolandr and if you lose you lose -20 of that map. So you will only have 30 points on prolandr.

[mRokita]

Thought I was right the 3rd time ^^. That's why I assumed map can drop to 0 and you would understand what I meant by that ^^

Anyway, the way I meant it was that each team has assigned map (or multiple maps) making that their map pool. Enemies can challenge teams on maps from their map pool. Defending team gets points on their map for winning +20 and -20 for losing.
Points are distributed separately for each map, so you have 50 points on prolandr and if you lose you lose -20 of that map. So you will only have 30 points on prolandr.

Again,
How can the points on map get drop to 0 (or below)?
Do you mean that 2 teams can have some map at once
What happens when a team gets a randomly assigned map? Is it worth 0 points?

[prozajik]

Again,
How can the points on map get drop to 0 (or below)?
Do you mean that 2 teams can have some map at once
What happens when a team gets a randomly assigned map? Is it worth 0 points?

If you get -20 for loss, that means that if you lose prolandr which had 50 in the beginning 3 times without winning on it a single time, you get to -10 total points.

Teams have their own map pool and the opponents can challenge them.
eg.Team Y and Team X
Team Y: map pool: prolandr (50 points), pforest (30 points)
Team X: map pool: renoir (50 points)
Team X challenges Team Y. Team X has to pick from Team Y's map pool the map that is gonna get played (given it's gonna be BO1 always).
Team X picks prolandr as the map of the match. Team X wins. This means Team Y gets -20 on prolandr. Also because Team X won, they get prolandr added to heir map pool with 20 points.
State after the match:
Team Y: map pool: prolandr (30 points), pforest (30 points)
Team X: map pool: renoir (50 points), prolandr (20 points)

If team has none map left in their map pool they get new map assigned (random, which nobody has) worth 50 points.

[Mission]

-Possibility for teams to snowball their points, if 1 team wins all the matches they will be miles away from the teams ranked lower (that's why I used percentage in my formula). I actually tried something what you suggested and ended up with rankings similar to this:
 1st 100 points
 2nd 20 points
 3rd 19 points
 4th 16 points
 5th 14 points

How does this happen when the team on top can only get max 5 points per match they won? I think you went wrong somewhere.

Edit: How do you expect teams to keep up with a system like that with the territory thing? To me it seems like you are trying to come up with a whole new game, like a war strategy game not a league. Concentrate on the official map list to restrict the maps being played and then a simple ranking system should be made because it would make the game so much more competitive.

[Ace]

The map based scoring is kind of stupid, no offense.

ELO scoring is the best bet. Include rating decay to make it work. Some of the math...

Where Ea is expewcted outcome, Ra is rating of team a, and Rb is rating of team b. This works out so that for every gap of 400 points, the team is 10x more likely to win.


For how much to change points, you use:


Where Raold is team a's old score, Sa is the result of the game (1 for win, 0 for loss), and Ea is the expected score (1/0). K begins at a high value for each team(25 for chess), and works its way down to a set lower bound (10ish) after a certain number of games. This lets teams drastically change their rating when starting off, and then slowly declines once they play more and find their proper placement.

For decay, you would only decay teams above a certain threshold (1200), and the decay would be a ratio of their total score. Say 1% decay for every 1 week of inactivity.

There would also need to be a set amount of games to play before the scoring would become ranked (maybe 15-20 matches). Your score would be visible before this, but you wouldn't be ranked in the overall standings until then.

[mRokita]

Can work out the math for you if you want.

yeah it would be nice

[Ace]

Edited my post above, I think the main point is that you need a comparison againsnt the team youre playing, a minium number of matches to be ranked, and a decay system.

[Mission]

That sounds like a good system.

[Ace]

Here's a spreadsheet on docs with a few example rounds. Excuse any errors I did it quickly. The top section is 3 teams at equal 1200 starting point. The second section is 3 teams with 1400, 1300, and 1200 points. The third section is sample decay.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12qIUnASwuZ_X3BWyq3pdOUTsYkjC7cHpnpU3fCz4Cw0/edit?usp=sharing

So, really the idea is that the K value sets the maximum point differential. If K is = 25, and the teams both have a rank of 1200, they will split the K value in half, so one will gain 12.5, the other will lose 12.5. If the K value is 25, and the teams are ranked 1400 and 1200, the split would be unequal. If the 1200 team wins, the scores would be 1219 and 1381 after. If the 1400 team wins, the scores would be 1406 and 1194. The 1400 team winning is much more likely, so the point change is less severe when this happens. The 1200 team winning causes a larger swing of points because it is less likely.

The real thing to consider here is the K value over time. You want a high K value at the start to place teams closer to where they should be. After they have played say... 15 games, reduce the K value, after 30 games, reduce it again, until the minimum K value is reached. Remember, that the K value is the maximum point swing possible.

For decay, after 2 weeks of inactivity, the score will decay a percentage until the starting 1200 is reached. Scores at or under 1200 will not decay. This is to prevent people not playing with a high score.