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P!nk

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« on: November 04, 2006, 09:54:48 PM »
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jitspoe

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2006, 06:02:27 AM »
I think the concept is good, but the implementation could be tricky.  I was thinking whenever I implemented the new map format, I could add a provision for a "seal of approval" type thing.  Kind of like a microsoft signed driver.  Maps would have to go through the approval process before they could be put in rotation on public servers.

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2006, 12:49:44 PM »
That would be forcing server owners to have rotations which a minority user base approve...  Trying to take that control away from the server owners is a sure fire way of having your game dropped all together from the servers.

I said it before and now have the proof to back it up, "No matter what maplist you have there is always someone who is NOT going to like it."

For the longest time I watched users come on the forums, in IRC, and in games themselves whining and complaining about the maplists of the GRaFFiTi servers so I thought "let's put it in the general public's hands" hence "The Great Maplist Vote of 2006" http://dpball.com/forums/index.php?topic=3092.0

Prior to the final tally of maplists voted for, the GRaFFiTi servers stayed fairly busy through the morning and evening hours.

Almost as quickly as I adjusted the rotation to the winning maplist the user base shrunk substantially.   For the past month where the servers used to be loaded during the morning hours, they now are mostly empty.  In the evening the classic servers would always be full, now occasionally one might get full.

Of those who used to complain about the maplists you still seldom see them on.

As demonstrated by those who voted in the "Great Maplist Vote of 2006", users of this forum and those who voted are only a tiny percentage of the DP user base.  The userbase is now dominated by newer players(noobies) most of which are foreigners who seemed to like the old rotation better. 

I would rather have the servers FULL of noobies than watch them sit empty with no one in them at all.  We have 4 match servers available for those who want the abilty to pick their own map.  I think I've fixed the "GRAFFiTi Match Server Tool" which is here: http://69.93.11.66/~dpaintball/index-MatchTool.shtml

Map tastes change quiet often and there are in excess of 500 playable maps out there, I think I'll go back to the strategy of watching what maps on other servers are attracting users.

Some things need to be controlled, like the Global Login but Map tastes are always changing and new maps are being made.  Don't take away server owner's choices of what maps they can use on their own servers with the idea of forcing maps to have to go through an approval process before they can be put in rotation on public servers.   Nothing wrong with using it as a map rating system then giving it a "GRAND SEAL Of APPROVAL AWARD" and still allowing server owners to have a CHOICE of putting that map in THEIR rotation.

In final, there are many servers out there... If you don't like the maps on one then it is your choice to either go to a server that has maps you like or make your own server.  If a server owner's server sits empty then it is up to those server owners to CHOOSE new maps and make necessary adjustments to THEIR servers in an effort to attract clientele.

Termin8oR

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2006, 01:06:15 PM »
I thinks its a great idea.

Then people can vote on their favorite maps and the creators and accept comments/criticism.
Its good to me.

P!nk

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2006, 02:22:20 PM »
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PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 04:00:01 PM »
jitspoe: If you made it optional for the admins to place the "good" maps on their servers, but made the rewards substantial enough, it wouldn't upset admins quite as much. It just seems like that's what makes people so against change, it's forced on them too suddenly and they retaliate. If done gradually, such changes would have a greater chance of being accepted and admins wouldn't feel forced into it. It's important they feel they still have control, which they would. Later on you could require a certain number of these maps on servers.

Perfectly stated...

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Picasso: it's understandable for you to dislike this, as it would detract players from your servers. This is why I suggested it be used on a reward-based system, admins would then have to decide if they would like to please pub players whilst still getting their reward. Now, what you're worried about is that you will lose a large player base on your servers. If all of the servers have the same selection of maps, they will still be able to make decisions to try and get better maps than other servers and therefore gain more popularity. It won't be like this map review board would say something like "Picasso, you have to put this, this, and this map on your rotation, or we will do it(..)", instead there would be a list of maps of which you could make your decision.

The "Reward" is having the servers FULL to begin with.  A reward for having maps that are approved by a small minority, or committee as you put it, won't make me feel as good as having full servers. 

I just gave you an example with "The Great Maplist Vote 2006" how maplists that are voted upon by a minority of the DP player base don't seem to be appealing to the majority of the current DP community.  I've also explained that changing over to such a list has basically made $1,200+ a year servers useless as they have been nowhere near as populated as they were prior to the change.

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We're trying to keep crappy maps out of pub, that's never going to happen if something like this isn't created. And look at it this way, Graffiti's population will most likely increase because everyone else will have to choose from those maps as well, you guys can always overcome other servers by allowing special settings and such.

Again, each individual has maps they might think are "crappy"  and it's impossible to please everyone.  It doesn't seem fair to shrink the variety of maps that have been created over the years by so many creative mappers down to a smaller list created by a small "Seal of Approval" committee of a few old players.

Again, I refer you to the example with the afore mentioned maplist vote.  Only a small percentage of the community took part in the vote just like your proposed committee. The rest either didn't care or had no knowledge of the vote.

I made the change and GRaFFiTi's population decreased substantially.

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Now, you say that only a tiny percentage of people like decent maps. What if newbies haven't been exposed to enough good maps to truly decide they hate all maps of this category? And yes, the game is dominated by newbies, but most of them like the old rotations better because those were the first of which they were exposed. I know I love crates and a bunch of other cruddy maps. Why? They were the first I ever played, they were the first that got me addicted to the game.

You mis quoted me... I never said  "only a tiny percentage of people like decent maps"  I said "As demonstrated by those who voted in the "Great Maplist Vote of 2006", users of this forum and those who voted are only a tiny percentage of the DP user base."  Huge difference...

Again, the reason NOT to limit the variety is that there are many many more differing opinions of what a good or bad map is than the opinion of a few on a tiny committee.  The likes and dislikes change all the time therefore it is up to the server owner to make changes according to what the population of their servers desires.  There's also already an in-game voting system in place that we can utilize if we so choose.

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Better yet, more newbies need to take an active role in saying what they like in maps (not just what maps they like) and why, then a compromise could be made and some of these elements could be integrated into newer maps. Or perhaps admins would be allowed a certain number of "other" maps outside the list, the possibilities are endless.

No game can improve or progress if it's designer doesn't receive input from it's users but you can't really touch the entire community base and come up with a list of maps that meets EVERYONE's approval based on the results of only the few who might give input as demonstrated with the "Great Maplist Vote" already mentioned.

Again you're denying a huge variety of maps that might seem like awesome maps to someone else.  The more you take away from the game, the more boring it becomes.

I have no problem with a committee evaluating a map and putting a "Great Seal Of Approval" stamp on it.  Those maps can still act as guidelines or models for future maps and server owners can choose to add them to their maplists.  Variety and choice are what make a game as far as I'm concerned and when you start taking the choices away and forcing limits or taking away something that someone else worked very hard on, it's very discouraging.

Why deny newer users the fun of seeing all the 100's of different map creations.  Each map is some individual's work of art whether a few of you disagree or not.

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These changes would need to be very gradual, oh, and Pimp's map rating system could come into full use with this too, as it hasn't been used as much as it could be.

Nothing wrong with a rating system but some of the above mentioned changes would be very destructive to the game.

P!nk

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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 05:10:50 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:25:02 AM by P!nk »

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 05:35:30 PM »
Thanks for the clarification... Well presented :)

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It's quite possible to make the majority happy as well as the minorities without causing too much of a problem.

That was my hope as well... I suppose one step at a time will reveal whether that holds true or not :)

Dirty_Taco

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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 08:48:53 PM »
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PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 09:41:06 PM »
Absolutely...

IronFist

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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 09:57:49 PM »
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jitspoe

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2006, 01:15:44 PM »
P!nk: You keep mentioning "rewards", but I don't know what kind of rewards could be provided to server admins to provide any real incentive.

I think something like this might have more of a place in the clan scene (ie: list of acceptable maps that can be used for matching), but from the results of a previous thread I started a while back, it seems everybody has different ideas about what's an acceptable match map.

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 02:43:06 PM »
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"but from the results of a previous thread I started a while back, it seems everybody has different ideas about what's an acceptable match map."

My, my the similarities between the nooby pub world and the old school clan world...

It's just as I've stated, Everyone has different flavors they like in maps no matter who they are...  You make an adjustment for one or a few ppl, then the other half doesn't like it.

The voting system within the game really should take care of the issue...  Maybe I should activate it on all the servers?

jitspoe

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2006, 02:46:23 PM »
Why was it disabled in the first place? :)  One nice thing about the voting is that it lets people vote maps into the rotation list.  They aren't cycled through, though -- people have to vote them to the top of the list to get played.

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2006, 03:09:09 PM »
Never had it turned on the "CLASSIC" servers because the voting option wasn't available in the old versions hence the word "CLASSIC", or at least none of the servers from that time used the option... I think it's enabled on the Pubs though.

jitspoe

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2006, 03:39:26 PM »
Voting has always been available.  The old voting system sucked, though, and overflowed people if the server had more than like 5 maps in rotation. :)

P!nk

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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 10:15:05 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:24:56 AM by P!nk »

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006, 11:58:53 PM »
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"Picasso: You said earlier that your reward is fuller servers, but if you were to think of three other rewards right now (from greatest to least), what would they be? Also, would you mind asking a couple of other GT admins what they might like?"

Hahahaha 3 other rewards???  P|nk the jeanie!  Um is the a DP related question??...

As always or when possible, I discuss matters of the GRaFFiTi servers with Sharon.  Derrek hasn't been around in quiet some time and Sharon more recently has had real life issues that take priority over this game and the servers.  Snipen has been working all the time and I'm unsure what his plans are...

That leaves me taking care of the main servers, updating the match server tool, adjusting the map rotations, uploading new maps and dealing with user issues through log searches.  Also, the only in game admins that have been around have been Loial and myself.  Loial usually comes around late evenings.

Lately, My local ISP has supposedly been transitioning from COX to some crap called Sudden Link.  They've been overloading the pipe around here for some time and in the evenings I could get better speeds using my cell phone as a modem so I can't play the game in the evenings until they get there crap together.

I'll make sure and bring this to Sharon's attention but I can tell you that she'll most likely agree with everything I'm saying as I know she likes the variety of maps as I do.

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"but as Picasso has said a bagalazadazillion times in this thread, everyone finds some things to be more rewarding than others."

Considering I said it a bagalazadazillion times I find it funny that you mis quoted me...  I said, "Again, each individual has maps they might think are "crappy"  and it's impossible to please everyone."  I also said "Everyone has different flavors they like in maps no matter who they are..."  but I never stated the words you have there.

Anyway, your ideas are interesting and there's nothing wrong with new ideas.  I'm surprised other admins aren't weighing in on this discussion.  It would be interesting to see their thoughts on this.

P!nk

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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2006, 06:54:50 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:24:53 AM by P!nk »

PiCaSSo

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Re: Map Review Board
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 07:58:03 AM »
That's a tough question to answer from an admin or server owner's perspective. 

A Reward for that? ummmm

- Donations to help pay for our servers

- Some form of recognition on the Forums

- You could implement a 4 star rating system for servers where the stars show up in let's say Jitspoe's NEW server browser tool w/rcon like:

1 star = plain cable modem server
2 star = cable modem with "special" maps from list
3 star = plain high speed server
4 star= high speed server with "special" maps from list

None of which are really that much of a reward...  The last one is the most appealing but in all reality the only true reward is having a Full server and if those maplists are forced upon us and don't attract players, you've defeated your purpose.

Lastly your posts are not "uber confusing" at all... In fact they seem to be well thought out and with a high magnitude of imagination.  I understood clearly what you meant but if you're going to use "Picasso said" sentences, I'd prefer you "quote" me rather than use your own words.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 09:31:08 AM by PiCaSSo »