Author Topic: New Map Format (Read 8184 times)

jitspoe · « **on:** April 23, 2004, 05:19:03 PM »

I don't know how far off this will be, but I would like to revamp the map format. I have a bunch of cool ideas, but of course they will be difficult to implement.

Idea 1:
- Quake3 BSP support. While the format is free, the compiler tools cost like $5k to license, which I'm not willing to pay. I could write my own tools. Someone has started making an open-sourced Q3 map compiler, but it's not even remotely close to being finished.

Idea 2:
- Expand on the Quake2 BSP format. Reduce how much the map gets chopped up, add support for LOD, add support for compiled meshes, add support for displacement maps (aka bumpmaps/terrain), allow for variable resolution lightmaps, and some other cool stuff. I'd go along the lines of how UT2003/4 maps work: BSP for the core structure and collision detection, meshes for all the details.

Idea 3:
- Get away from the BSP format entirely and try to make something more suitable for the paintball environment (think vast terrains and open areas). I was thinking of possibly using octrees.

Excalibur · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2004, 06:43:52 PM »

idea 2 might be best that way you (peeps who map even me) wont have to learn a new engine but if idea 3 will make the game look alot better then maybe thats the way to go. it might cut the mapping community in half but it might be worth it.

jitspoe · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2004, 04:09:16 AM »

I neglected to mention that with idea 3, I plan to make it so you could build your entire map in something like 3D Studio or Maya and not have the limitations present in brush-based mapping.

IronFist · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2004, 06:45:46 AM »

Post removed

Eiii · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:59:25 AM »

#3 would be nice...but how would you put in buildings? and nice structures? i like the current way.

S8NATHOME · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2004, 01:11:36 PM »

I think all the options sound good.

Any one of these options would be an improvement over what is currently available so I would support any of them. What does concern me though has nothing to do with any options. It has to do with Jitspoe about to enter the real world of making a living. Once you fully enter the work force are you going to have the time to do this stuff? Are you even going to want to? I think these are questions that no one, not even Jitspoe, can answer right now.

Jitspoe, you should seriously look at all the licensing documentation for Q3 (if you haven't done so already). You don't apear to be wanting to market DP so you should not have any licensing issues at all. Seriously, check it out.

I also think the render engine for Q2, unless modified and optimised dramatically, may choke on massive additions to the mapping format. I know we've discussed this a bit, and you probably just brush off my concerns as that of a dumb old man, but I don't think i'm too crazy in my ramblings. It's not just hardware that made Q2 a lesser engine than Q3. There must be a great deal of engine improvements and optimizations in the way polygons are processed and textures are mapped and effects are handled, as well as utilizing the benifits of advances in hardware between the two. I would image there will ultimately be just so much the Q2 engine will be able to do period. Sure hardware will push that point on a bit, but only so much i think.

In conclusion...

Jitspoe, this should really be your call. You are an experienced mapper, you know what is good. Make the call and go with it. Any one you choose will rock!

My 2.5 cents

Excalibur · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2004, 02:41:09 PM »

like i said before any of the choices would be nice but if you get away from bsp there will prob be some mappers that will stop mapping for paintball cause they do not want to learn a new format.

S8NATHOME · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2004, 03:55:31 PM »

Ya know what would be a huge improvement in map asthetics?
A secondary texture like in Q3.
In Q3 you are allowed to apply a second texture to a face.
This allows you to have trim textures that you can apply to any already textured brush.
You can also add ornamentation this way. Like a sign or emblem in the middle of a wall without having to cut the wall up.
There are a bunch of other ways Q3 uses layered textures.

What'cha think?

S8NATHOME · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:16:40 PM »

For all I know this was written by Jitspoe (note it's by a guy named Nathan).
It's very very interesting and relevent to q3maps in q2.
Particularly look at the link at the bottom titled: "QFusion
This is an engine that adds support for Quake 3 data types to the Quake 2 engine."

http://www.nathanostgard.com/tutorials/quake3/collision/

All in a days work!

Excalibur · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:25:22 PM »

hey my name is Nathan.

jitspoe · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:32:12 AM »

The Q3 Tools license specifically states that they can be used only for the full version of Quake III Arena:

Quote

3. Permitted Uses. So long as this Agreement accompanies each copy you make of the Software, and so long as you fully comply, at all times, with this Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited right to use the Software to create your own modifications for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA; provided, however, you shall not make any modifications unless and until you have agreed to be bound by the terms of the LIMITED USE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT which accompanies the full version of QUAKE III ARENA.

I've emailed the CEO of id to see if it would be ok to use it for a non-commercial game. If so, I'd probably be using the code from QFusion, since it seems to have Q3 BSP's running pretty smoothly.

#3 wouldn't stop you from making buildings. It would just allow for a wider variety of map designs. I would also try to make it compatible with the Quake2 level editors, so you could continue to make maps in the same manner as you do now.

Quote

there will ultimately be just so much the Q2 engine will be able to do period.

It's not really the Q2 engine anymore.

Time is certainly a big issue. I don't really know what to do about that. I'll just use what I've got.

If I make a new format from scratch, there's a potential to be able to market it. Probably not much of one, but if I can find a way to process highly detailed scenes quickly, there must be some interest for it somewhere.

You can put as many textures on a surface as you want through the use of RScripts (basically simplified Q3 shaders). You can also make a 1-unit brush with trans33+trans66 on it to add something like graffitti to a wall (I think that's what was done in ub_rooftop).

S8NATHOME · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:29:42 PM »

One last thing...
I emailed Timothee Besset two days ago after finding his email address here - http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/ - while browsing about reading licensing information and such.

Timothee Besset was the project lead on GtkRadiant who was in charge of maintaining the Linux version of Quake III Arena in 2002. Not sure what he does now.

He replied to me today.

Here's the two emails in full:

Quote

From: "Keith" <keithcharron@charter.net>
To: <ttimo@idsoftware.com>
Subject: Q3 mapping technology
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:43:21 -0400

Hi there.
A friend of mine has been developing the same Quake2 mod for many years now. He has been updating and improving this mod continually, and has a dedicated following that enjoys the mod very much. He is currently looking to modify the mapping portion of the mod. He is interested in making his Quake2 mod accept Quake3 maps.

Are there any legal reasons he should not go ahead with this plan?

This mod is free, has always been free, will always be free, and abides by all id Software licensing agreements.

The mod: Digital Paint Paintball2
URL: http://dynamic5.gamespy.com/~digitalpaint/news.pl

Thank you for your attention and advice on this matter,
Keith Charron

And his reply...

Quote

From: Timothee Besset <ttimo@idsoftware.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Keith <keithcharron@charter.net>

Since Q2 source is GPL, whatever code you would use to load the Q3 BSPs
would have to be GPL as well. That is you can't use q3map's BSP loading
for instance. Other than that I don't believe there are restrictions on
the usage of the BSP format itself.

regards

TTimo

I guess he's saying what Jitspoe said? You can use the q3map compiler?

jitspoe · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2004, 04:50:24 PM »

As he said, there are no restrictions on the format. The restrictions are in the compilers.

S8NATHOME · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2004, 06:30:04 PM »

i meant "can't" in that above post

jitspoe · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:43:22 PM »

Click "modify"

FourthX · « **Reply #15 on:** April 26, 2004, 08:01:45 AM »

Quote

Ya know what would be a huge improvement in map asthetics?
A secondary texture like in Q3.
In Q3 you are allowed to apply a second texture to a face.
This allows you to have trim textures that you can apply to any already textured brush.
You can also add ornamentation this way. Like a sign or emblem in the middle of a wall without having to cut the wall up.
There are a bunch of other ways Q3 uses layered textures.

What'cha think?

Already available through rscripts in dp. It's called a detail texture.

S8NSSON · « **Reply #16 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:17:31 AM »

Is there any documentation on how to use this feature?

jitspoe · « **Reply #17 on:** April 26, 2004, 01:55:28 PM »

Not really. Look at the beefquake site (don't remember url offhand). It has an rscript editor. This is about the extent of documentation I have:

Code: [Select]

scriptname
{
      subdivide <size>
      vertexwarp <speed> <distance> <smoothness>
      safe
      {
            map <texturename>
            scroll <xtype> <xspeed> <ytype> <yspeed>
            scale <xtype> <xspeed> <ytype> <yspeed>
            blendfunc <source> <dest>
            alphashift <speed> <min> <max>
            anim <delay> <tex1> <tex2> <tex3> ... end
            envmap
            alphamask
      }
}

Scripts go in the scripts directory. If you understand q3 shaders, these should be pretty easy.

Eiii · « **Reply #18 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:09:47 PM »

hmm...what ELSE can rscripts do??

Eiii · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2004, 04:40:38 PM »

yeah, i know i double posted. and that this is really old. fine.

Anyway, i think a really good way to make paintball maps would be some map file that you can create in gmax. gmax is free, and almost exactly like 3DSmax...even by the same company. it's what's used to make halo maps, and if you've seen those, they're pretty...hilly.