Author Topic: Sprayfests vs. Strategy (Read 8629 times)

jitspoe · « **on:** December 21, 2004, 02:03:54 PM »

Quote from: loial21 on December 20, 2004, 11:33:12 PM

"spayfest" since when is fire supression not kewl and not teamwork

When everybody sits in one spot and sprays the only place(s) the other team can get through.

Maps should have good "strategy points." Places where you have to make a decision -- think. For example, midnight: you're on the second floor of your base and somebody grabs your flag. What do you do? You have to use your experience and decide if he's more likely to come up the front ladder or go out the back way. Often you can cover both situations because it takes a little longer to go out the back path. Or you can simply jump down to the lower level and confront the grabber directly. Maybe it would be better to just run for the other base and grab their flag.

Of course you also have to take the present state of the game into account when you decide: how many players are left on each side? Does your team have the flag? etc. If you have teammates alive, you can cover both paths easily, or have one go after the carrier while you go for the enemy flag, etc.

Blitz, on the other hand -- if someone grabs the flag, you just shoot at him. No thinking is required. Maps like that really dumb down the game. There's a lot more to it than who has the best aim/reflexes or who has the mast people walk into his stream of paint. Maps like that can be fun for a little bit, but they get old quick, and there's way to many of them already.

If you make a map, take the time to make it good, unique, and have lots of room for strategy/teamwork. Don't make a big box with some bunkers scattered around. Also, use weapon placement as part of the strategy. Don't don't don't put all autocockers in a map.

loial21 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2004, 05:34:56 PM »

valid points.......however as you all know thinking is not my forte , killing is

"There's a lot more to it than who has the best aim/reflexes"
what there is ? hmm learn somthign new every day

Good luck on your map mate

so jits what your saying is you dont like anthill

jitspoe · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2004, 06:02:40 PM »

Those types of maps can be fun, but get old. Especially when there's already like 500 of them.

Eiii · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2004, 12:32:30 PM »

Jits--Paintball isn't a "stragitic" game. IT'S ONE SHOT KILL! There's no stragety in that. Putting a spraying game in stragitic maps is just kinda stupid. We need some way to remove the sprayfest.

Okay, new definition of sprayfest--
You see a guy in a room. You shoot. Duh.
However, say in Q2, if he doesn't see you, you might not shoot because he has a MUCH superior weapon than yours, and you're just low on health. Something like that. THAT'S stragety. That's not exactly what we need, but close.

One mo' thing!
We also need maps that emphasise teamwork. Maybe require it, by putting in some special doors or something. That might be a little extreme, but there isn't enough teamwork apart from going along together. No two weapons "compliment" each other. No weapon will "Own" another. All the weapons are almost the same. We need to find SOME solution to that. Soon.

jitspoe · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2004, 12:54:19 PM »

I suppose chess isn't strategic either because it only takes one move to kill.

Eiii · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2004, 08:42:25 PM »

No, but that one move could win, or lose the game for you. You have to set up an attack to efficiently take out the enemy. That's also strategic.

loial21 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2004, 11:02:02 PM »

this is a first person shooter

right?
...as far a teamwork ..good luck on a public map ...its a rush to the best gun or to the best spray point or like me rush for the sake for rush .

god i have mentioned this before .....to get rid of "sprayfest" do what americas army does.
have friendly fire turned on and if you have to many friendly fires then auto kick from server ...it wont cure the spraying ..but it really does help
...but how to stop someone from doing friendly fire on porpose? ..temp ban?..

spayfest according to jits
"When everybody sits in one spot and sprays the only place(s) the other team can get through"-jits

u mean like ............midnight?

for example
1 weapons spawn by flag
2 upper/lower enterence
any in case that is the maps creators fault for putting such places on the map ..one cant be blamed for spraying as cover fire and if the enmy is stupid enough to try to walk through the spray then that is the enmies fault not the sprayer....for the sprayer will either run out of air or paint soon enough (you made sure of that by taking off the 300 ball hoppers)
and in that case the mapwriter should spawn paint/air far enough away so that it gives the other team a chance to move out ....
little off topic ...sorry

jitspoe · « **Reply #7 on:** December 23, 2004, 01:05:15 AM »

Since this was getting way off topic, I decided to try out this bboard's "split topic" feature.

So... feel free to talk about sprayfests and strategy here.

Problem is so many maps have autocockers, 20oz co2, and ammo everywhere so you can basically hold the mouse button down for the whole round without worry. I have taken some steps to reduce spray, though, such as the gun freezing (displayed on the meter below the co2 bar), but stuff like that tends to get disabled because people don't like change. FFire would probably upset a lot of people, too. Sounds like a nice idea in theory until you get hit by your teammates over and over in pubs. I do believe it should always be on in matches, though.

As for midnight, I'm not sure what your argument is. You can't spray one location and prevent entrance into the base. There are a couple of "hot spots," but people don't usually sit and spray them for an extended period of time, and if they do, you can just take an alternate route.

As opposed to, say, indune. The only way into the base is through a single, narrow hallway, and that narrow hallway is the only way into the base. Someone sits in the base and shoots the across the hall -- the ONLY way in is to run through the spray and hope you don't get hit. There are hundreds of maps like this, and it ruins the gameplay -- two people spraying at a chokepoint hoping the other will run into his paint, because at that point there's nothing else to do.

Dirty_Taco · « **Reply #8 on:** December 23, 2004, 01:13:36 AM »

Post removed

Eiii · « **Reply #9 on:** December 23, 2004, 11:09:59 AM »

^More or less what i was trying to say.

loial21 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2004, 06:43:31 PM »

Problem is so many maps have autocockers, 20oz co2, and ammo everywhere so you can basically hold the mouse button down for the whole round without worry...<<<<< HEY!!!! thats me

Here is a problem, everyone wants a the best gun the map has to offer and enough air and ammo to last the round ...we can agree on that ...so whats more fustrating than getting chinced by a newb/vet on ammo/barrel/gun cause some one cpu or ping is getting them there first ,...that sucks for that person who is last...period... no barrels no air and no gun,remeber how you felt when it happend to you (btw as you all know loial only needs 10 paintballs and his trusty PPG and he is ready to dance) ....but you get my point ....

.most tourneys of any sport you wont have differernt classes of equipment , they standardize the equipment to make the playing field even ....matches should never use differnt guns , ... every one should spawn with weapons no exceptions .... pubs are debatable.

....flanking the opfor for rear ambush should be the main reason using alternate routes ...not for hiding in them like so many newb do (midnight lower tunnels)....or runnign away from a fight when you have flag so that you can cap ...we have an unwritten code that you dont cap on the newb ..correct ..so why would you want to evade a vet by using a differnet route to cap , but expose your self to attack by searching for the newb to kill or wait for respawn instead of capping ..that is a double standard how ever fair it is to the newb .....ok that was stupid but true......in sumation I belive there is more honor in killing before caping whether its a newb or vet

i can however appriciate the "thinking portion" of the game ..which way to go so I can i get as many kills as i can .....wait that was not what i ment

on that note
...sounds like i have played to many public mathces and every map is a deatchmatch to me ... perhaps i need a good official match to put perspective on what your saying ...forceing loial to sit back and obey the needs of the team hmmm plausable

jits how close would you be to getting a dpl forum for none irc users

waits for retorts

Eiii · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2004, 06:50:50 PM »

Quote from: loial21 on December 23, 2004, 06:43:31 PM

....
most tourneys of any sport you wont have differernt classes of equipment , they standardize the equipment to make the playing field even ....matches should never use differnt guns , ... every one should spawn with weapons no exceptions ....

That's a terrible idea, in my opinion. Sure it might level the playing field some, but it again lessens the stragety. Getting weapons is just as much stragety as anything else. Except for spraying.

Also, tell some people who don't put all autocockers/ carbines in their map to put MORE in. As loial said above, everyone's been stranded without a weapon in some map. There need to be ample weapons, low/medium in the base, and high in the middle.

And, I have to get this off my chest...PBcup is the worst map ever. Few weapons, small spray map...c'mon.

loial21 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 23, 2004, 07:31:51 PM »

respectfully ....... but in all competitive based events....all things being equal is first and foremost no debate about it

however if same weapons and barrells at same spawn point per side ...that you would have to run to get ...that i can agree to.

..but then if the map writer has not provided enough gear ..then that is somthing else...i guess then there is the issue of how many max players per side and how many weapons need to be placed for 10v10 or 3v3

good luck making everyone happy with amount of gear you spawn ...not enouhg or to much

giving people weapons before spawn is a map writers short cut to a fair and balenced game ...which is what we all seek first

...mabey its just the admin detectiveing with the weapon placement ...but far to often i have seen teams with lesser weapons/ barrells/ air being placed one sided for example battlefield 1 and 2
..never have i played either and saw that each team had the same amount of gear per side LAME

Eiii · « **Reply #13 on:** December 23, 2004, 09:56:56 PM »

Maps aren't designed for EVERY amount of players. Most of them are for 4v4, 3v3, or 6v6. So, the map author puts in the right amount of weapons. However, if it's a "good" map (ie- one people lke) It'll be overplayed. In overfull servers. Until everyone thinks it sucks because of the lack of weapons, which takes away from the design of the map.

and if you haven't seen symmetrical maps, you haven't played much.

Anyway, usuallly that means the weapon spawn in on "medium", or something. That usually is also fair. As long as everyone has the same class of guns, or starts out near them, i concider it fair.

loial21 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 24, 2004, 12:01:19 AM »

Let me preface by saying this is an attempt to help all who play dp ...and remember it takes all of us from players(thanks for the memories) to admins(thank you for paying for my fun) to software writers (thanks for your time and godlike ability) , to make this game the success it has become ...never should one group think themselves above the other

Some will not like what i am about to say, they whom i consider good people . Please get ready to swallow a bitter pill of truth . This no way reflects my peronsal opion of any one person so to the reader dont take it personal if you do ..i dont go there ...life is to short and fun to waste squabing like children...enough rambleing ..and now the point

the following quote had me thinking (again not my forte)

"However, if it's a "good" map (ie- one people lke) It'll be overplayed. In overfull servers" ...agreed totally

my first responce was " like castle1 or pbforest on er33t servers ?" ..however I was wrong , that was 2002.....and on er33t servers

so my second and correct responce was thus

"However, if it's a "good" map (ie- one people lke) It'll be overplayed. In overfull servers".....agreed

Like when blitz.bsp or uni's cliff map (forgot name) comes on graf servers in 2004/05

so logically i made the next conclusion

what maps most are people playing NOW (2004/05) and where do most CHOOSE to play them ....sadly we all know the anwser ......

I wish there was some way to patch the drift that is occuring in our beloved community ...and if there is let me know how I can help..

What is sadest to me is that some you do not wish solidarity among the dp community they want what they want and disregard others who help make this game what it is today which i can respect whither player, admin , map writer or the game developers (god bless you) ..but in the intrest of fairness we should debate the issues then put it to the vote . It iis that simple ,if you know a more honest and fairer way please teach me.

i need a drink im going home to kill some one on paint ball ..god bless and merry xmas friends

RoyalBlood · « **Reply #15 on:** December 24, 2004, 12:10:44 PM »

Wow. This is a funny thread. Are you guys just that ignorant or do you refuse to see the truth? Completely missing the point of what Jits is saying. Basically everything Jits said is correct and everything eiii and loial21 said is completely wrong or missing the point. And thats not meant to be insulting, I'm just summing it up to be brief

I dont even know how to reply. If you didn't already understand what Jits said, which was spelled out perfectly, then I dont know how anyone can tell you differently.

Without rehashing what has already been said, I think we need to realize something else here. There are 3 basic types of DP players in this situation.

1) You have the old-schoolers who know what DP was like during its glory days when midnight, pforest, brainstorm, and other actually good maps were prevailant. Matches meant something. Pub servers were a place to hone your skills and enjoy the game. There wasn't any retarded jump servers. Sure there were still bad servers, bad maps, bad players, etc back then too, but they were a minority and seniority in the game made sure they were kept in the minority. These old schoolers are the people who rarely play nowadays but want to play. They go on a server and get disgusted with the quality of play and leave.

2) You have the new school llamas who only want to bunny hop through the maps at super high unnatural speeds and spray. They also flock to play the least strategic, least creative, and most dumbed down maps possible. These are unfortunately the people who play the most. They have no sense of competition, they are numb to what is actually fun, and they lack taste. It really becomes repetition. These are also people like Snipen who abuse server priviledges and degrade the entire community with his lack of responisibility and sense. Now I'm not saying all new-school players fall in this category, just that most seem to.

3) The third type are the newbies and new-school players who arent llamas. These are the people who are the reason WHY we should be upset with the way things are and WHY we should bother fighting it. THese are the people who arent used to playing the game and need to be mentored and taught the right way to play. We dont want these people to go on Graf and get the wrong impression. Worse than that, we dont want them to go on Graf and be encouraged to play and act that way.

So basically as the old-school players went away and/or became less active (which is to be expected) they have to be replaced by someone right? They get replaced by newbies and new-school-llamas. But over the years they were replaced more and more by the new-school-llamas and less and less by newbies who didn't turn lame. The other big problem was bad servers. Servers who played the worst maps, had ignorant, irresponsible, abusive admins, and that were owned by such complete losers like Snipen. Since said server and admins are part of the new-school-lllamas, other new-school-llamas gathered there too. So when newbies look for somewhere to play, the only full server regularly was Graffitti and they either get a bad impression and never play the game again or they turn over to the lame side with them cuz they think that is acceptable. Old school players turn their nose in disgust and play even less because they cant stand that type of behavior. Now someone like Jits, Fourthx, Smurf, myself, etc tries to fight this and teach people the true way to play and we get flamed for trying to change the game, when the game already has changed for the worse.

Sorry for the rant, but the point is that you can deny or give excuses to everything that Jits said originally, but the only way it will be like that is if you dont put up with it at all. Dont ever play on graf. Dont play on stupid 1 dimensional maps like Blitz. The main reason why maps like Blitz are popular and why people play on Graf is cuz there isnt any alternative to sway them to. Most of these people play that way simply because thats what was popular and they dont know any better. If more of us play on other servers and on better maps and dont spray and play the game the way it was meant to be, some of them will realize it and start playing more this way too. Sure some will still want to be lame and spray and play stupid maps, but they will be the minority again, just like it used to be.

Eiii · « **Reply #16 on:** December 24, 2004, 03:31:32 PM »

Quote from: RoyalBlood on December 24, 2004, 12:10:44 PM

1) You have the old-schoolers who know what DP was like during its glory days when midnight, pforest, brainstorm, and other actually good maps were prevailant. Matches meant something. Pub servers were a place to hone your skills and enjoy the game. There wasn't any retarded jump servers. Sure there were still bad servers, bad maps, bad players, etc back then too, but they were a minority and seniority in the game made sure they were kept in the minority. These old schoolers are the people who rarely play nowadays but want to play. They go on a server and get disgusted with the quality of play and leave.

Just for the record, that's me. Even though i've only been around for a year or two, i rarly play anymore. The servers are all just too...bad.

Quote from: RoyalBlood on December 24, 2004, 12:10:44 PM

Wow. This is a funny thread. Are you guys just that ignorant or do you refuse to see the truth? Completely missing the point of what Jits is saying. Basically everything Jits said is correct and everything eiii and loial21 said is completely wrong or missing the point. And thats not meant to be insulting, I'm just summing it up to be brief

Okay, I'm not insulted, but what do you mean? I've been agreeing with jits almost the whole way. Except for the fact that Paintball doesn't have as much of a stragitic potential as some other games.

Quote from: loial21 on December 24, 2004, 12:01:19 AM

Like when blitz.bsp or uni's cliff map (forgot name) comes on graf servers in 2004/05

You're thinking of ub_cliff.bsp. But that got me thinking. Cliff is also a small, sprayish map. But it's great with 3v3. (NOT 6V6, SERVER ADMINS!) It's only sprayISH because there are seemingly two paths to take. The high one, or the low one. There is only one entrance to the base, but it is wide, and around a corner. You can't spray the whole thing or see someone coming too early. And if you spray the lower entrance, someone will come up high. There are places to hide, and a hard way to jump up high, which is only helpful if the other guy is spraying in your, or his base. Otherwise you'll get shot.

If you think about it, even though ub_cliff is a small map, it's filled with stragety. Most stragitic maps nowdays are huge, or something. ub_cliff is a great map, but the 3v3 limit needs to be respected.

Dirty_Taco · « **Reply #17 on:** December 24, 2004, 09:55:05 PM »

Post removed

Xile · « **Reply #18 on:** December 25, 2004, 12:17:57 PM »

Servers need to stop rotating the bad maps and start playing all the good ones.

The thing with this is, that now dp is about 99% newbified. So if a server has good maps
on, nobody plays on them. Thus, making them useless really. As RB said, all the old schoolers
don't play anymore, and they want the good maps back. This is the paradox.

Server admins want their servers to be played on. Nobody who likes the old maps play anymore.
Thus, they have to have all the terribly designed maps roatating for anyone to join and play on them.
If not, nobody plays on the server. Pretty much making them useless and a waste of money.

Also, I have noticed a hefty amount of server admins (even from Apex, where i am always at and have control of)
changing maps in the middle of a good map when people are playing, to a less, smaller, excrementtier map. Thus being
new-schoolers joining older clans and getting control of servers and excrementifying them.

Too bad paintdepot died, because I was working hard trying to eliminate that.

Ill have to have a consult with a few people, to see if we can try to bring out atleast one server with all
decent old school maps ect from apex. The only problem with this is, thus what I stated above. Nobody will play on them.

Sad yes, but true.

-Xile

JpKool · « **Reply #19 on:** December 25, 2004, 12:54:08 PM »

Quote from: Xile on December 25, 2004, 12:17:57 PM

As RB said, all the old schoolers
don't play anymore, and they want the good maps back. This is the paradox.

Hes got a point but atleast this oldschooler is back in action hehe.
it would be kool to see alot of the better new maps in the rotations and its true when a map is in the rotation noone likes everyone leaves to go to a different server, common guys put some heart in the servers your paying for and put the maps on rotation that everyone loves. make a poll get everyone to survey the poll and see what you come up with.