Terminal: Feedback requested (56k, enter at own risk)

[y00tz]

Hi community

I made a map a month or so ago, and I'm starting to wrap it up.
It's called (The) Terminal, and it's based off a railroad station or airport terminal sort of.  It's not a "crates in a box" map, but it is my first.  I've seen stuff posted all over saying don't release your first map, and since obviously everyone is a fan of their own work, I knew I'd have to run it by you guys.
I think it plays pretty good, it'd be a fine CTF map, and we've been playing it a lot here at the office.
It features walls and a few obstacles to prevent pray and spray, as well as some clever lighting and shadows to allow for hiding and strategic camping.  I have two routes, and it's a linear map, but plenty of stairwells allow for even more paths.

Note; That's not the blue barrel texture, it's  a custom texture.

I attached some screenshots, and I'm wondering if I should begin working on a beta for a possible release. So um, what do you guys think?

[y00tz]

..more..

cheers,
y00tz

[Spook]

looks great... clutter it though, barrels, crates, etc... but gj, it's a good start

[y00tz]

Spook what if I tried something beyond crates and barrels? I think they're a little over used (and I think I can take a hint from Jitspoe's avatar)  I was considering making detailed seats, since It's set as a terminal of sorts.  Perhaps a few rows of three detailed chairs.  If I sat a few under awnings that could have low and high cover, as well as jump positions.  Plus they'd work well with the map.  Thoughts?

[KiLo]

I like the idea of seats. You may be able to add some cart like objects that resemble vendors.

[Zorchenhimer]

I was considering making detailed seats, since It's set as a terminal of sorts.  Perhaps a few rows of three detailed chairs.  If I sat a few under awnings that could have low and high cover, as well as jump positions.  Plus they'd work well with the map.  Thoughts?

Models, with clip brushes around them. Otherwise the brushwork will be a nightmare, and it wouldn't look good anyway.

[y00tz]

KiLo: Can you find me a pic of what your describing (like on google images) so I can see what you have in mind?
Zorch:  I can try to model and skin them.  I noticed your a Blender guy, if you'd like to make them or something.. that'd be great

[jitspoe]

The texture selection is a bit odd, and you need more details and whatnot to break up the large, uniform surfaces.

- Think realistically.  Metal isn't usually in giant chunks.  It's made of various pieces welded or riveted together.  Take a look at the lower area of jericho, for some good ideas on how to handle metal supports and details.  You have support beam type things, but they don't look physically possible (they'd fall under their own weight), and look like nothing I've seen before.
- Be careful with texture scaling.  When you scale a texture down, it also scales the lightmap down (more surface area) and increases the amount the map is broken up (use deathmatch 0 and  gl_showtris 1 to see the map splitting).  It also makes the tiling really obvious.
- I have never cared for the "box lights" (2nd and 3rd sshots).  They just don't look right.
- The floor texture you used tiles really poorly.  It was designed for small surface areas like pipes and when you have it covering such a vast area, the patterns are really obvious.  It looks bad.  Plus I imagine a terminal would have some type of cement or tiled floor.
- The support posts are made out of tiny plates of metal?  Those wouldn't hold much...
- Crates made out of jail bars... I guess they could be cages, but why would they be in a terminal?
- From the looks of some of the shots, you have really long visible areas, which have probably kicked the r_speeds up pretty high already, leaving you little room for detail without making the map unplayable for people with lower end machines.  When you design a map, you want to keep as little area visible as possible to allow for more detail to be used in the areas.  If you have two rooms visible at the same time, you can only use half as many polygons as when you have two rooms that aren't visible at the same time.  What are your r_speeds like in that first shot?

Not trying to tear your work apart, just hoping to help you become a better mapper and be able to make environments that look more believable.

Here are some pictures for inspiration.  It helps a lot to use something real as reference:

http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Monaco/photo368846.htm
http://www.iomguide.com/right-photos.php?720
http://www.nrhs.com/railfan/2003/sanford_fl_auto_train_station.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/2005-05-4242-train-station.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Terminal_tfn.jpg
http://www.cretetravel.com/images/Gallery/Athens/Pireas_train_station_1.jpg
http://inphotos.org/kent-train-station/
http://static.flickr.com/88/221840029_c1a7badaf3_o.jpg
http://www.heimburgerhouse.com/dons_photos/Alps_adv.htm
http://www.pbase.com/sansnoetic/image/59420895
http://www.airchive.com/airline%20pics/LGW2004/South%20Terminal-1.jpg
http://www.geo.umn.edu/orgs/umgs/Pictures/Hawaii%202003/Day%201/pages/06%20honolulu%20terminal.htm

[y00tz]

I actually predicted your response Jits
Thanks for the feedback.
-I realize a lot of the textures aren't right, and just to be clear, you're not offended if I ditch the default textures and make my own?
-r_speeds in the first shot are 2500 (the highest anywhere in the map)
-I do want to do a tiled floor (and cemented on the 2nd level) I couldn't find a good tile I liked.
-I never noticed that the texture is cages, I actually pictured them as rigid boxes, like the storage containers that luggage is thrown into at an airport) Thanks

Also, thanks for the images and the ideas.

Mike

[Zorchenhimer]

KiLo: Can you find me a pic of what your describing (like on google images) so I can see what you have in mind?

Lemonade stands, newspaper stands, etc.

Also, I could model a chair (or 3), but I haven't gotten skinning models down yet.

[y00tz]

A while ago Jitspoe told me to use QME (Quake Model Editor)

It's what I use to skin stuff (it's complicated, I use it for guides then do it in Photoshop)

I don't know if I'm allowed to redist it, I haven't read the license yet (rare for me), I could post a link but I think I'll take my chances.

And Jitspoe:
Like I said, I predicted what you'd say and started putting together this...
It's far from done, but a slight improvement.

[KiLo]

Lemonade stands, newspaper stands, etc.

Yeah that is what I meant. Or something like this.

[y00tz]

Ah a kiosk, I do like that.

[nightryder]

some garbage cans so people dont leave their old ball containers lying around

[Termin8oR]

lol nightryder.

and the map looks good, maybe some new style of objects from a real based household item.

[y00tz]

What do you have in mind Termin8or?
I appreciate all the feedback guys. +1'd everyone I could.

[SkateR]

It doesn't seem like it would play too well. But who knows.

[KnacK]

You do need to ditch the box lights and go with something else.  Just doesn't look right.

And thanks for the 56k warning :p

[jitspoe]

If you use tiles, I wouldn't use one of the included tile textures.  They're too... vibrant for something like general flooring.  You need something more like concrete blocks -- like a sidewalk type texture, or at least something more neutral/earth tone colored.

This here looks like straight up concrete: http://www.nrhs.com/railfan/2003/sanford_fl_auto_train_station.jpg

This has some simple tile patterns with very little color: http://www.cretetravel.com/images/Gallery/Athens/Pireas_train_station_1.jpg

Simple checker tile: http://www.omnova.com/products/chemicals/images/BW-PC-SPEC-FLOORCARE_AIRPORTFLOOR.jpg

Granite chunks: http://www.wholeo.net/Trips/Travel/SV/sfo/sfo.htm

Earthtone colors: http://www.spanish-airport-guide.com/images/seville%20airport.jpg

In any case, the flooring is very flat in most terminals, but the pb2 tiles tend to be more 3D like bathroom tiles or something.

Also, I'd take your whole ceiling and make it more arch-shaped.  Try to get rid of the boxy look, and make those support beams go from the floor, up the wall, and across the ceiling.  Also make them smaller, and if you can, kind of an I-beam shape.  Something like what's in this photo: http://www.cretetravel.com/images/Gallery/Athens/Pireas_train_station_1.jpg

The center post wouldn't really be needed in that case.  If you do use center posts, though, I'd give them a cement base and a metal post, like this: http://www.nrhs.com/railfan/2003/sanford_fl_auto_train_station.jpg

or if you go for a large area, maybe a big reenforced concrete post, like this: http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/8900/monte-carlo_train_station.jpg

[y00tz]

I'm getting 403 Forbidden on the last pic.

Thanks for the insight, since your last post I started working on a new texture for the floor, I hope it turns out well.  As for the roof, I did make an arch, and a custom texture to lighten the place.  I think I could have another build done before the end of the school year, which is Friday, so I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for all the help and insight.
Cheers,
y00tz


Edit:
I know my architecture and textures aren't up to par, but what do you think about the lighting? It's what I really worked on.