New Map: Cavern

[Rept]

Idea by M7Feettall.

A ctf map cave setting, low route, lower backdoor route, high backdoor route(only reached from lower backdoor).

Screen shots
-Courtesy of M7









I would love some positive and negative constructive feedback. Thank you for your time and interest, Rept

[m7feettall]

I have a lousy system btw, so the low frame rates should be near the bottom end

[DaRkNeSS]

Looks too smooth and blocky to be a cave.  Try making the walls more jagged and what not, that would make it look much nicer.

[Eiii]

It's really super flat and boring. If you're going to make it a cave, make it a natural cave. Caves aren't square. Same goes for the rocks, I guess. They're all on the same plane, and are all parallel. Or vice versa.

[blaa]

 Um, You used metal texture for ceiling?
And that higher cave, you used too many lights - well look at the 2nd sshot.. Lights misaligned aswell. The idea where you have water and those rocks floating there is pretty good. On the other hand the "island" where the flag is looks pretty wrong.
Alos, on that lower route I noticed some rocks floating. Maybe you wanted them to be that way, but they seemed wrong to me.

Mmm, you can make the walls look more "caveish" pretty easily. I dont know how to say it, but I will give an example:
http://scythe.planet.ee/muhamedalishangrilashishkebab/2ndmapbsp.jpg - Look at the most right area. I cut 1 big wall ___________________ into several little pieces. But, to avoid overlappings I needed to cut grass and the sky too. So after cutting wall into several pieces I selected all the details and started pulling the walls to be more like /\/\___/\ and stuff, you know. Of course, it would be cool to work those walls not only in the Z view but also on X/Y. Like siegecastle.
And the way how that bsp sshot looks ingame is: http://scythe.planet.ee/muhamedalishangrilashishkebab/sshot105.jpg  not the best sshot, but I hope you get the picture. What my point was: Its not hard to make walls like those.

And maybe, just maybe, you could replace that metal ceiling texture with nightime sky? Lower the ceiling/walls a bit and place lighting sources on ground on walls and, and.... and be creative :p.

[Rept]

Will fix lights on top, I will make an attempt at modifying the walls(was expecting this comment).  As to nighttime sky i will try it and see what i think.

Haven't been mapping for to long, so I thank you for looking so far. Keep the input coming and I will do my best to modify the map.

Thanks, Rept

[KnacK]

Cave ceilings are not flat........

[m7feettall]

Or just change the textures and the name and call it quits

I don't see a compelling reason to put that much more work into it since we tested the game play and it was pretty fun.

But then Rept and I disagree on the importance of theme maps. I don't care what they look like, I just want them to play well. He likes themes, so he went with the cave theme.


And as to caves, those who are concerned about flat roofs etc. When was the last time that you saw a cave  with two precisely opposite bases and a mid area and a high and low backdoor?

[lekky]

It does look like a new mappers map Very boxy but you know this! Be nice to see it once you've got it more "natural" looking.

EDIT (to reply to m7feettall): Unfortunately, no matter how good the gameplay is no one will play it if it doesn't look good. We just don't want it looking like a box, it doesn't look good and won't get played on like that. Plus Rept trying to make it more real will do him good as a mapper.

It is just a game. Why make it complicated?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Need I actually comment on this?

[DrRickDaglessMD]

Ok,

few thoughts - nice first attempt, but theres a lot of work to be done on it to bring it to a release candidate.

First of all, the bases are pretty flat and open, you should think about changing the structure to be a little more interesting and enriched gameplay wise. I like that you're thinking about some jumps to get high, etc... though. Think about perhaps making a base structure or something instead of just a flat platform, gives a few more options for defending, etc... and will look more interesting.

The rocks in the mid, im not sure if they are grossly misaligned or if they are intended that way. They are pretty much all not flush with the ground and they arent very realistic. Use the carving tool to make more convincing rocks instead of just deforming a rectangle by the anchor points on the corners of each face.

The texturing needs work, try and get a convincing blend of textures going, which isn't easy given the reasonably limited palette we've got to work with.

The light fixtures look simplistic and unnatural, try and at least make lights that look vaguely like they might be seen in a cave or tunnel.

Lastly, your r_speeds are rather high (about 4000 with reflective water on) for the level of detail, I think you might want to consider altering the basic design of your map to accomodate better Vis'ing very shortly.

Keep at it, no-one gets it first time.

- Dagless

[y00tz]

It look alright, and as we've all said, it could use more geometry.  It reminds me of a month or two old map called "Caves" which was renamed because of another map called caves...  Anyway, maybe add some plants?

[Apocalypse]

Hmmm... not sure if this was mentioned but many of the rocks in the middle are floating.

[m7feettall]

EDIT (to reply to m7feettall): Unfortunately, no matter how good the gameplay is no one will play it if it doesn't look good. We just don't want it looking like a box, it doesn't look good and won't get played on like that.

The game has a number of examples of poor looking maps that are played.

Airtime does not look like much. It has no theme. It is not the prettiest map. It is some ramps and planes and such. There are not a lot of organic forms or natural curves, etc. But gameplay is good and people play it.

The old shazam 33 wasn't even fully lighted, but it was highly played. Again, no theme, just ramps, a bridge, squarish outlets, etc.

xbmap-- no theme, no great graphics, was not lit, and looked pretty shabby. But gameplay was good and people played it.

On the other hand there are some great looking maps that folks don't play.

So I am not convinced on the argument that folks won't play it.

But I think it might be best to abandon the idea of a theme at all and just make it ramps, areas, etc. and not pretend it is a cave.

[m7feettall]

Ok,

few thoughts - nice first attempt, but theres a lot of work to be done on it to bring it to a release candidate.

First of all, the bases are pretty flat and open, you should think about changing the structure to be a little more interesting and enriched gameplay wise. I like that you're thinking about some jumps to get high, etc... though. Think about perhaps making a base structure or something instead of just a flat platform, gives a few more options for defending, etc... and will look more interesting.

The rocks in the mid, im not sure if they are grossly misaligned or if they are intended that way. They are pretty much all not flush with the ground and they arent very realistic. Use the carving tool to make more convincing rocks instead of just deforming a rectangle by the anchor points on the corners of each face.

The texturing needs work, try and get a convincing blend of textures going, which isn't easy given the reasonably limited palette we've got to work with.

The light fixtures look simplistic and unnatural, try and at least make lights that look vaguely like they might be seen in a cave or tunnel.

Lastly, your r_speeds are rather high (about 4000 with reflective water on) for the level of detail, I think you might want to consider altering the basic design of your map to accomodate better Vis'ing very shortly.

Keep at it, no-one gets it first time.

- Dagless

Yes, R-speeds are an issue.  What specific suggestions might help?

It seems the water is causing a lot of the issues.


The barren state of the base is my doing, as we found on an earlier attempt that water with such rocks actually does provide for camping, slowing players, etc.

The water is meant to be ducked under for cover.

It was fun in testing so we thought we would use it here.

Perhaps it could be combined with some barriers, etc. as well, but the essential intention was a fast low route that demanded caution as you had to watch your step and the campers below the water or behind the rocks.

[DrRickDaglessMD]

The primary concern with respect to r_speeds is that the map layout allows you to see both bases similataneously depending on where you are stood. Ideally each area shouldn't be able to 'see' into an adjacent area, or the game engine will draw them both. As it is, when you stand on the upper walkway on the outside of the mid (the map is vaguely 'U' shaped, so imagine i mean at the very bottom of the curve of the 'U') you can see both bases on screen at the same time, so you're drawing them both. Then coupled with reflective water on, the engine is drawing the scene twice for the reflection, practically doubling the r_speeds.

Try and compartmentalise the map more, as it is you have 2 huge entraces to the bases that give you the line of sight into the bases. If you extend the entrances so they are longer, more like a connecting corridor, it would hopefully act as a vis-blocker for your bases.

ie,

now: ---       ---  possible fix: ---        ---
          |___|                       |        |
                                          |___|

This is just off the top of my head, having not seen your bsp I don't know if it would actually work. Either way, when you're thinking about changes, make sure you cant see the bases from the mid.

m7feettall, Im of the opinion that maps should have a theme. Just endless pointless ramps and such are interminably boring in my opinion. You're right that just  because a map isn't themed doesn't meant it won't be played, but that's a shame I think, who wants to play the billionth airtime clone, this time with MORE MAGIC RAMPS AND BARRELS! Not me.

- Dr Rick Dagless M.D

[KnacK]

My whole point is that there should be themed maps. If you state that your map is going to be themed, stay on target and work towards that goal.

Alot of maps released over the passed few years ( insert almost all jump maps here) are poorly designed.

Now, there is an influx of well thought out maps and map makers are takign a lot of time adjusting based on constructive criticism and turning out some great looking maps, Discovery for one.

Since I am not a mapper, I have no room to talk, but just sharing in my observations.

For example - look at ub_rooftop.  THere is absolutely no reason that more maps can't look that good and have that much variation in game play.

rooftop has a lot of things going for it:
Graphics
Sounds
Multiple routes
No single area to "line"
Easy jumps that are more inline with regular game play.

I would just like to see the bar raised when creating a new map.

For those that do map, cudos for giving us more opportunities to play a new and different map. I am providing this as how I see things and not as a putdown to someone trying to make or release a new map.

* KnacK goes back to work.

[m7feettall]

In the early days many of the maps we now enjoy made it in because the game needed more maps. Now the aesthetic bar has been placed high and we lose out on some good game play because we reject maps without a theme.

I WOULD like to play the millionth airtime clone IF it  has fun gameplay.

If I wanted good graphics I would be playing a different game.

If a map has good graphics and a theme (relatively speaking for dp) that is fine. But it is no where near my top concern.

[m7feettall]

For example - look at ub_rooftop.  THere is absolutely no reason that more maps can't look that good and have that much variation in game play.

rooftop has a lot of things going for it:
Graphics
Sounds
Multiple routes
No single area to "line"
Easy jumps that are more inline with regular game play.

I would just like to see the bar raised when creating a new map.

I enjoy rooftop, but I would not call it an attractive map.

Now a couple of attractive maps I can think of...and there are not many...

zsiege...barely played, unfortunately

Kungfu...seems to be clearing out servers currently, despite its obvious aesthetic appeal, and its great detail within the confines of this engine.



There is a disconnect between what mappers like, what Jitspoe hopes for, and what people routinely play.

I am not arguing for ugly maps. But themed maps don't seem necessary to me at all. If a map can have both a theme and good gameplay, that is fine. But if a map has good gameplay and isn't completely ugly, that is also fine with me.

[DrRickDaglessMD]

I like Kung Fu, but i understand why its not massively popular as its a bit awkward and not really the sort of gameplay that the masses on DP love. However, its the sort of gameplay me and Reed like, so thats why we made it that way. Zen is going to be more aimed at mainstream gameplay but keep high detail and decent gameplay (we hope). We don't want to compromise artistic and thematic goals by pandering to the idiot masses, but otherwise its incredibly difficult to get a map played when all they want to do is play a spray and pray map like Shazam33 (no offence to the map maker!).

This is getting a bit off topic now, so I think ill leave it at that, but the bottom line is in my opinion, don't sacrifice the theme of this map for a load of mindless and unrealistic ramps and blockers, try to weave them into congruous elements of the theme, that way it will look nice, play nice, stand out from the masses of boring maps like Airtime635,214 etc...

- Dagless

[Rept]

I am very intrigued by this topic and I can't describe how pleased I am with the influx of comments and discussion.
Over the course of the next few weeks as time permits, I will make an attempt at improving my ability to map. I was quite aware of the state of the map pre-release needing work and these comments should be great in throwing this together.

Feel free to continue this discussion as to which elements are necessary or suggestions for the map proposed.
I am as obviously at this point on the side that a map must have a theme, well I suppose you can bypass this by providing a map that is astetically pleasing, as long as game play is not effected. But in most cases themes aid in picturing a final "polished" map.

Also there are maps that are very well detailed that don't see play time, but I feel it is the design not the detail which comes into discussion there. And some ugly maps are designed in a way the masses don't mind the overall look so much. Either way a push for an equal balance is essentially a good goal.

Thanks, Rept