Digital Paint Discussion Board
Development => Bugs, Feature Requests, and Feedback => Official Feature Votes => Topic started by: jitspoe on January 04, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
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A map for first-time players that would show off the basic moving and shooting in Paintball2.
Things like:
- Leading moving targets.
- Different weapons.
- Strafe jumping.
- Game modes.
- How to pick up and drop equipment/upgrades.
etc.
http://dplogin.com/dplogin/featurevote/feature.php?id=10279
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Sounds like a good idea to me. Would be cool if you could make it interactive. Like first it shows some instructions, then plays a quick demonstration video, then gives the player a chance to try. Is this possible with the current map format?
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There was already a map called "shaztrain", you could use this (or modify a bit, if it doesn't suit all needs). It even had target practice.
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The whole point of a map would be so that it's interactive. I don't know about playing videos... well, technically it is possible to play .cin files with r_scripts on a map surface, but the file sizes would likely be huge. I was thinking more along the lines of markers and triggers with text descriptions of what to do. I set dialog messages as a dependency because we really need a way to trigger displaying text in an elegant format.
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I've started working on this. It's made me realize how this seemingly simple game is rather complex when you try to explain all of the just the basics to a new player.
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.bsp!!!!!! pls
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I've started working on this. It's made me realize how this seemingly simple game is rather complex when you try to explain all of the just the basics to a new player.
IMO you should try to not make it boring. Let player moving freely for different things like shooting, jumping, CTF/Siege. Also some tutorial vids playing while player is nearby would be cool but probably too hard to implement (what about videos playing in displayed menu on whole screen? That wouldn't be that hard) or maybe some bots that will play demos? I'm not sure if that would be possible (probably not). But as you plan making bots API open someone may implement it in future or at least something that looks similar.
That's nice Jitspoe that you try to work on something to bring more people to game, keep it up. This is also smart to let others freely help you with more things like bot API, i hope that you'll publish more code and find developers (i think i can help myself at least with basics because for now i don't know C/C++ well).
.bsp!!!!!! pls
Would make easier for us to help Jitspoe improve this map. Needed for sure, but not until at least some things are done. And as this is first jitspoe post about that it's probably in very early stage.
EDIT: You should also mention in this tutorial how to update game. This is problem for people that doesn't understand English well so try to use simple sentences.
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Will you make it like an interactive demo (a bot that make a shot or jump) and the player can try it after that or with text in the new dialog boxes (don't know if that needs a new entity to pop up the dialog) or both or something completely different?
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Right now you can just freely walk around the map and dialogs pop up in different sections explaining things. I'm going to have to put some weird hacks in in order to be able to have all the game modes visible in one map, but I'm partway there. Hope I don't break any existing maps. :)
I'm going to hold off adding anything fancy like AI since that will probably be completely rewritten soon.
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i love this idea.
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Will you make it like an interactive demo (a bot that make a shot or jump) and the player can try it after that or with text in the new dialog boxes (don't know if that needs a new entity to pop up the dialog) or both or something completely different?
idk if you can make it like how the quake mod works, how you can see the fastest time on the server. Just show how to do something, and have it keep playing over and over.
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Still nowhere near done, but I figured I'd share the map anyway since some of you asked for it. The dialogs won't work as they require code changes that I'm still working on.
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I've attached some more progress shots. The equipment and game mode tutorials are pretty much done (had to add a lot of hacks to the game to make it all work). I'm starting on the basic jumping tutorial section now.
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Nice job.
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Finnaly my ideas are implemanted....
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This will prompted upon downloading? and then menu title "tutorial" correct?
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That would be useful.
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I'm thinking of having it auto-load the tutorial map the first time you play, and have a tutorial option under the "Play" menu as well, so you can go back to it.
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So it will be a force tutorial? some might not like that IMO should be prompted and if people deny it, have a message stating that if they want to in the future there is a menu title for it.
Definitely have it in the map starter pack you have.
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I think u could also add an option to run a tutorial demo if wanted :)
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I think u could also add an option to run a tutorial demo if wanted :)
Definitely not a bad idea to add some option in the demo map to show the demo before starting the tutorial map, so you actually know what is expected.
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A demo of someone walking through the tutorial map?
Might be good incase someone doesnt understand wtf they need to do xD
is someone going to make a translated map for german/ brazilian players?
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I could translate the text in german and post it here, when the map is finished.
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I think the map itself is just about done. There are just a few more things I need to add in the code to support it. Note that it won't play correctly with the current version of Paintball2, but you can at least look around.
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Looks good.
You wrote (in the jitspoe's plan thread) that it supports translations. How does it work?
I found a few little things that could be changed, but i'm sure Chef-Killer will post them :) So here are only two things i noticed:
sshot1072: I can jump up there (ladder -> left stone -> top).
sshot1073: I'm stuck there.
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Map looks really nice with the hr4 textures, when you add this to the game, you should add the hr4 textures by default as well :)
You might want to add a quick room about basic double jumps. Whenever I show this game to people, they always learn to double jump in about half the time it takes to learn to strafe properly. Double jumps are in almost every map, and might be really helpful ^^
On a technical note, the bottom of the flag pole in the siege area can be seen through the floor.
Great work!
- Cusoman
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T3RR0R15T: Thanks for pointing those out - fixed.
cuso: I consider a double jump to be a more advanced jump. I plan to have advanced tutorial maps in the future. The flag model is too large and sticks through the ground on all maps - just isn't normally visible. One of these days I'll make a better flag model...
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Looks very nice so far.
I'd avoid the double fence maybe. Btw. you can jump over the fence.
What about "minclientbuild" "36/37?" and "message" "###"?
I'd also add one paint/smoke grenade with the dialogbox and press # to throw....
Maybe you could make the dialog boxes visible as long as they aren't read, that new people don't forget anything. A colored and flashing lighting point would be great.
It's a little bit confusing that you can grab a CTF flag, run to SIEGE area and get the cap at the wrong time. Might be hard to understand and realize for new people don't knowing the different game modes. Not sure if it's still possible after the code changes.
"Nice Air!", loool :D
The lights after the first jumping room sometimes block me, you might want to add clip brushes there.
Maybe add one more dialog box in front of the closed door, if someone missed the dialog box at the button.
There's also a black face at the door if it's opened.
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3569.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3568.jpg)
Red: I'd rotate these faces.
Blue: I'd move this face a little bit.
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3571.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3570.jpg)
Red: Why did you add those holes?
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3573.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3572.jpg)
Red: I guess you did that consciously. In my opinion closing this hole would look better.
I hope we can test the map with all functions soon. Great job.
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It's a little bit confusing that you can grab a CTF flag, run to SIEGE area and get the cap at the wrong time. Might be hard to understand and realize for new people don't knowing the different game modes. Not sure if it's still possible after the code changes.
There is a bug that you can change the gamemode mid in the game (that jitspoe already fixed in the b36 code), but maybe it is possible to use it here somehow.
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Maybe you could make the dialog boxes visible as long as they aren't read, that new people don't forget anything. A colored and flashing lighting point would be great.
This works great with something like the flare texture/srcipt you already used in spaceballs (I'd prefer yellow or orange). Func_wall entities can be toggled off by the trigger_once entities. It might be possible that only the point of the next dialog box is visible, too. I'm not sure what's better. Here's an example with all...
(http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3578.jpg) (http://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/attachments/3577.jpg)
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What about the pgp model? Should it be there with the information that it is the default weapon?
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Noticed one more thing: Is there no DM/TDM area?
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dm and tdm are rarely played IN DP and widely known in fps. im sure people who are going to play this arent unfamiliar with what a dm and tdm are. this game isnt usually played int hose styles anyway.m
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dm and tdm are rarely played and widely known in fps. I'm sure people who are going to play this aren't unfamiliar with what a dm and tdm are. this game isn't usually played int hose styles anyway.m
When making a tutorial map, I think it's a good idea to assume that the people using it have an IQ of 0.
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False^
Did you know how to strafe jump, double jump or any of that when you first picked up paintball? or quake? Maybe your IQ should have been assumed to be 0 then according to your standards.
If it's an FPS, people know what death match and team death match are. And what would you put into the tutorial? it would be a quick synopsis like, DM - everyone for themselves. and TDM - you have a team..... LOL
The point of this was more or less to teach about things that newbies didn't understand like how to air their tank, when they should air their tank, how to gain speed and strafe jump, double jump, how to change team, how to use console, how to use chat/team chat. Things like that are the most important.
silly narga.
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False^
Did you know how to strafe jump, double jump or any of that when you first picked up paintball? or quake? Maybe your IQ should have been assumed to be 0 then according to your standards.
If it's an FPS, people know what death match and team death match are. And what would you put into the tutorial? it would be a quick synopsis like, DM - everyone for themselves. and TDM - you have a team..... LOL
The point of this was more or less to teach about things that newbies didn't understand like how to air their tank, when they should air their tank, how to gain speed and strafe jump, double jump, how to change team, how to use console, how to use chat/team chat. Things like that are the most important.
silly narga.
You can't just assume that everyone has played an FPS before.
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You assume that if a person downloads a shooting type game, they wont know that shooting someone else is the object of the game? (DM-TDM)
Can you realistically think about what you're stating/defending please and how it's a waste of time. You can admit you're wrong, or just not post back.
All it comes down to is time. Jitspoe has enough time to do this map for us, why have him spend more time putting in that the object is to shoot people. You're right, if you didn't know this, you have an IQ of 0. Also, if you have an IQ of 0, you wont be able to download the game in the first place.
NONE of the dp servers provide a game mode TDM,KOTH. There was viciouz'z dm server which I don't think is up anymore. Sure, it's in the game, but it's not used. It's a waste of time to include in the tutorial map, stating and showing what DM and TDM are and how they are to be played.
cmon seriously?
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It's not as simple as shooting people. For example, in CTF, you have to get the enemies' flag and bring it to your base. A person who has never played an FPS wouldn't know all the rules including the rules for DM and TDM.
When I learned programming I was taught that you have to assume that people using your program have an IQ of 0. Not only was this to make your program easier to use, it also prevents people from accidentally braking the program or their computer.
I know the latter may not be relevent when making a map, but the former is.
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Is Chef really critiquing jitspoes map
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Use simple vocabulary, a lot of players cant speak great english.
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Your ctf example is in the tutorial and is relevant.
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Your ctf example is in the tutorial and is relevant.
What I'm trying to say is that if you've never played an FPS before, how would you know what the rules for DM and TDM are?
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Is Chef really critiquing jitspoes map
hes trying to help jits
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Death match, meaning death + killing things, Team deathmatch meaning Killing things with a team. Not hard to figure out common sense.
Jitspoe has put in that red team caps the blue teams flag back at red teams base. I'm sure it doesn't take the most capable of minds to realize you need to shoot the opposing team in the process.
For an example since you don't seem to believe that anyone is smart enough to understand. Way back when halo 1 came out, they had their game play style called "slayer" and "team slayer". I didn't go hmmm Slayer? that's a band right? must be you play music. No, i associated slayer, with , killing things, and if i added team as a prefix, it must mean killing things with a team. It wasn't even called deathmatch or team deathmatch and it was totally understandable. There was no tutorial on it and there definitely was no one on their mic saying I DON'T GET IT.
I'm pretty sure people do not wish to partake in a tutorial half the time, and for the people who do, do not wish to be bothered with what DM and TDM are and are spoon fed like dumb babies. All they want is to know how to move fast like the guys they see in the servers who fly by them, or learn why their gun has stopped shooting and understand what the weird noise that sounds like air escaping is.
If you're so worried people will not understand what it is, bother jitspoe to add a chat pop up in the map that explains it briefly. No need for a room. No need for it all in my opinion.
I honestly can't tell if its a troll or not. I figured it was, but not sure anymore.
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For an example since you don't seem to believe that anyone is smart enough to understand. Way back when halo 1 came out, they had their game play style called "slayer" and "team slayer". I didn't go hmmm Slayer? that's a band right? must be you play music. No, i associated slayer, with , killing things, and if i added team as a prefix, it must mean killing things with a team. It wasn't even called deathmatch or team deathmatch and it was totally understandable. There was no tutorial on it and there definitely was no one on their mic saying I DON'T GET IT.
What about Apple? According to you, Apple must be an Apple company. That's not true, Apple is a computer company.
So when someone who has never played an FPS before plays DM or TDM, they may assume that DM or TDM means killing people, but they may want to be 100% sure. Besides, maybe the developer(s) of the game wanted to make DM or TDM a little more interesting, and thus have made a few changes to the game mode. Also, this is Paintball, we don't kill other people, we eliminate other people.
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So when someone who has never played an FPS before plays DM or TDM, they may assume that DM or TDM means killing people, but they may want to be 100% sure.
FPS
First Person Shooter
Shoot things?
I am not 100 % sure
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FPS
First Person Shooter
Shoot things?
I am not 100 % sure
It's not as simple as shooting people. For example, in CTF, you have to get the enemies' flag and bring it to your base. A person who has never played an FPS wouldn't know all the rules including the rules for DM and TDM.
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I am still a little new myself and most of the info about clans i had to figure out on my own through posts a couple ?s and irc channels and listening to people talk. having said that along with the training map, I believe that a flash video would do some justice. the video should have tips on matches, a couple how to's, some slang translation and protocol on grabs, caps and re-con. make the video fun and hope to here some feedback on this
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Chuck, do you think there is a need to explain how to play DM or TDM?
and Narga, You explained the need to teach how to play CTF, which is what this game is based off of, then added the fact that dm and tdm should be thrown in with no back up. Your argument there is moot.
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what's there to explain about DM or TDM?
DM: dude shoots at you -> you do the same
TDM: congrats you are in a team, now go shoot some ballz...LOL
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and Narga, You explained the need to teach how to play CTF, which is what this game is based off of, then added the fact that dm and tdm should be thrown in with no back up. Your argument there is moot.
It's not as simple as shooting people. For example, in CTF, you have to get the enemies' flag and bring it to your base. A person who has never played an FPS wouldn't know all the rules including the rules for DM and TDM.
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FPS
First Person Shooter
Shoot things?
I am not 100 % sure
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what's there to explain about DM or TDM?
DM: dude shoots at you -> you do the same
TDM: congrats you are in a team, now go shoot some ballz...LOL
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what's there to explain about DM or TDM?
DM: dude shoots at you -> you do the same
TDM: congrats you are in a team, now go shoot some ballz...LOL
How difficult is it to put that in a tutorial map?
Better safe than sorry anyway.
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How useless and a waste of time is it.
like i said, ask jitspoe to add it. It's his time to waste not mine.
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Is Chef really critiquing jitspoes map
Why are you hating on Chef so much? Jitspoe posted this to get feedback and Chef gave him feedback.. I'm not sure why you seem to not like his feedback, everyone else does.
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I'd avoid the double fence maybe. Btw. you can jump over the fence.
I doubt that's going to be a problem for people who need the tutorial. :) Might as well let them have fun if they can figure it out.
What about "minclientbuild" "36/37?" and "message" "###"?
If you're playing the tutorial map, it's going to be with the new build, which reminds me, I need to make it so tutorial maps can't be added to map rotations as they'll break the server.
I'd also add one paint/smoke grenade with the dialogbox and press # to throw....
Yeah, I need to do that - I was planning to put them in the bunker area behind the other equipment.
Maybe you could make the dialog boxes visible as long as they aren't read, that new people don't forget anything. A colored and flashing lighting point would be great.
Maybe... I kind of want to leave it open for exploration and not have flashy things that remove the immersion.
It's a little bit confusing that you can grab a CTF flag, run to SIEGE area and get the cap at the wrong time. Might be hard to understand and realize for new people don't knowing the different game modes. Not sure if it's still possible after the code changes.
Ah, yeah, thanks for reminding me - I need to add triggers to remove the flag when you go from one area to the next.
The lights after the first jumping room sometimes block me, you might want to add clip brushes there.
The ramp jump area? I'll take a look.
Maybe add one more dialog box in front of the closed door, if someone missed the dialog box at the button.
I was thinking of something like this, but I don't really have a good way of only making it trigger if the door is closed. Perhaps something to explore for the next iteration (if it's even necessary).
There's also a black face at the door if it's opened.
On the bottom? I don't think it will be trivial to fix since there's no light there, and it's unlikely to be noticed by most.
Red: I'd rotate these faces.
Blue: I'd move this face a little bit.
Doubt most people will even see that, but it's a trivial fix.
Red: Why did you add those holes?
I didn't add them. It's just a side effect of how I structured the brushes. Not the most efficient way, but you'll only see it with noclip.
Red: I guess you did that consciously. In my opinion closing this hole would look better.
It's supposed to be an overlapping diamond tread step, kind of like what you'd see at a loading dock.
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Unless there's something major wrong with it, this will probably be the final version for build 36. I may add some indicators or something for the next build, but I just want to get a new build out now.
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There is a "Bad field -> tutorialmap == 1" message.
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Maybe i would make the welcome message as a dialog box (with the information that it shows messages as popup in the right top corner) and all other messages as a popup (or maybe the exit message as dialog too).
That could be made with something like this:
4. Can you make the tutorial map changes available to all maps? For example: That it shows a dialog or popup if the trigger_once has "dialog 1" or "popup 1" in the settings.
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There is a "Bad field -> tutorialmap == 1" message.
Should be fixed for the next release (forgot a return).
Maybe i would make the welcome message as a dialog box (with the information that it shows messages as popup in the right top corner) and all other messages as a popup (or maybe the exit message as dialog too).
That could be made with something like this:
I think it's better with the new popup system. It displays until you move from the spawn. I guess you don't have the new map that goes with the popup system changes...
I basically just changed all the trigger_once's to trigger_multiples.
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Can you please add/allow the letters ä, Ä, ö, Ö, ü, Ü and ß for translating the tutorial map to german?
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I think that requires a new font system (or we have to replace some funname codes - 3 of the 4 blank codes maybe).
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Can you please add/allow the letters ä, Ä, ö, Ö, ü, Ü and ß for translating the tutorial map to german?
ae, oe, ue. Any german can read this => Problem solved
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I think the new popup system is just about done. When you stand in an area, it will pop up a description. Popups will fade out after a couple of seconds (if you're not still standing in the area that had the popup). Multiple popups can be visible at once. When the old one fades out, new ones will slide up to take their place. Here's a screenshot. Doesn't really show well without the motion...
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A lot of people have been complaining about the tutorial map lately. Please post suggestions for improvements.
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Please put doublejumps/circlejumps in it.
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I think it's to open right now, although it looks ice I would say having the map split into section more and making the sections more noticeable is more important.
Start them in closed off room where they canter used to the controls, when they feel confident have them to through a teleported or door that pushes you through (like pp1) to a new where the guns can be gone over, again make it another closed off room maybe with firing range, another door.
It may be repetitive and boring, but one of the main issues for me was the layout of the map, players don't you where to go I think and many tutorial boxes can be activated without knowing because there is no indicator where they will pop up make it so there is some way of notifying the players there will be a pop-up box or highlight a path for them to walk
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I just had a go at this and well, the popups fade very quickly. Sometimes I had to move around and try to find the area that triggers the popup just to finish reading it.
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Please put doublejumps/circlejumps in it.
There is CJ in it actually, but optional DJ would help.
I just had a go at this and well, the popups fade very quickly. Sometimes I had to move around and try to find the area that triggers the popup just to finish reading it.
Agreed, I would opt to remove text and make more images because most people doesn't read those popups.
A lot of people have been complaining about the tutorial map lately. Please post suggestions for improvements.
Gamemodes presentations are kinda annoying, I would redesign it, so all gamemodes are in separated rooms (separation should be clearly visible, i.e. with hub leading to all rooms). Also images showing how gamemode works should help. (best would be videos, but I believe it's not that easy to make).
I would also redesign jump section, with hub leading to it presenting various jumps (with more space obviously).
Finally I would indicate which way from hub to go to finish tutorial and include simplest jumps there.
Attached sample how tutorial could be designed.
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There is CJ in it actually, but optional DJ would help.
Agreed, I would opt to remove text and make more images because most people doesn't read those popups.
Gamemodes presentations are kinda annoying, I would redesign it, so all gamemodes are in separated rooms (separation should be clearly visible, i.e. with hub leading to all rooms). Also images showing how gamemode works should help. (best would be videos, but I believe it's not that easy to make).
I would also redesign jump section, with hub leading to it presenting various jumps (with more space obviously).
Finally I would indicate which way from hub to go to finish tutorial and include simplest jumps there.
Attached sample how tutorial could be designed.
nice idea
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There are a few ways this could be handled:
- One large map, with everything in it, broken up into different sections.
- Multiple maps, with a hub map that allows you to wander from section to section in game.
- Multiple maps, with a menu interface.
I'm not sure what offers the best user experience. Breaking the map up into multiple sections would allow players to quickly load a specific section to practice on (and be easier to split the workload up if different people wanted to contribute), while having one large map would let players quickly move from one section to the next.
After checking out how QuakeLive does it, I think it might be good to have the tutorial be more of a "practice mode". QuakeLive has a few different practice mode maps for strafe jumps, rocket jumps, etc. Each map is broken up into 3 sections, increasing in difficulty as you go.
I think we could do something similar here, where we have something like a target range practice map, but it has 3 different sections:
- stationary targets.
- moving targets.
- moving targets + player is forced to move (with jumppads or something).
It could be made a little more interesting by adding a timer or something so people could practice and try to beat their previous times (or friends times, if we get really advanced), kind of like shaztt.
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- One large map, with everything in it, broken up into different sections.
- Multiple maps, with a hub map that allows you to wander from section to section in game.
- Multiple maps, with a menu interface.
I think 2nd solution is worst: player has to watch loading each time he wants to do anything.
I like both first and last solution, but those could be merged: Make menu interface that will teleport player around that map. Downside is a problem loading/modifying this map if it grows big.
It could be made a little more interesting by adding a timer or something so people could practice and try to beat their previous times (or friends times, if we get really advanced), kind of like shaztt.
I think You plan too much ahead jitspoe. I really would like to see such a tutorial, but with you having almost 0 development time, we should aim small unless some mappers will declare their help. I still would aim small, but with place to extend things. This way you can have nice basic tutorial fast, and advanced one later on. And don't forget you still have to make hr4 and bots...
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007 reporting for duty.
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007 reporting for duty.
It could turn into a mapping committee project? Cusoman, join us. :)
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Instead of having the game modes all spread out in one area with the jumps on the other side, the tutorial map should be more linear. Players should be walking steadily in a defined direction. First we introduce the game itself, with the keyboard prop, then explain guns, ammo, CO2 etc, then go on to explain game modes. Then, we progress to the jumping section, which is pretty good right now with its linearness but is missing a few things. Double-jumping and ladder jumping are not explained in the tutorial at all, and it would be beneficial to introduce a simple speed jump where you must clear a hurdle. There would be space for gaining speed before the jump.
There should also be more references to digitalpaint.org/dplogin.com in the tutorial, and maybe some explanations of how to navigate the menu.
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I'm actually supposed to make a jumping tutorial, I've started but haven't gotten far.
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When I first started DP I had trouble with the ice part, it took me DAYS to complete the ice part.
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You don't have to complete it, but icejumps are an important part of this game.