Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: MyeRs on June 14, 2020, 12:13:21 PM
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Hello,
I'd like to open a discussion to the public as I've seen MANY people commenting on the topic of Bullet Registry and other issues.
People keep asking for higher ballspeed (even though it wont change much since it'll create a bigger gap between bullets - what they are actually seeking is changes to bullet impact/registry, and fire rate).
Anyways - we are working on a video to show times where players are either having issues with either:
a) Bullets bouncing off players (issue here is the inconsistency of it - medium range bounce off, but then zpar11 fluke 1 bullet across map can explode).
b) Players literally walking through lines (not jumping with speed, walking slowly) or sitting in a line for 3-5 seconds with name lit on cross hair.
UPDATE WITH CLIPS (thanks to various community members submitting - PLS DM me on discord with any)
1) Map: Duck_Fix - Distance: Player shooting is mid therefore within medium proximity. Nobody is moving at a fast pace. https://gyazo.com/b8b04affc5b446f8aae131988985d622
2) Map: Airtime - Further target killed immediately. Slow moving target closer -- name on crosshair, no death. Death when moves faster: https://gyazo.com/8a6c88d45ed5bb1cd3e72f97af8774d8
3) Map: Airtime - Closer proximity, straight line, name lit on crosshair - player does not die moving slowly: (both players 30 ping) https://gyazo.com/a168088da8e1ceefe8f023e4d50e7b4f
4) https://gfycat.com/horribledisfiguredalpineroadguidetigerbeetle -- Map XBMAP1 - Able to kill someone at furthers point away (high on ledge) - but ball bounces off user from closer range.
So anyways here are the primary issues I've heard (and comparing demos from 7-10 years ago of multiple players of differing skills - where it appears more consistent):
1) People requesting more ballspeed inc (THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER TO ANY ISSUES - it's at a good number with 2710 on NA to hit all the lines the maps were intended to allow)
2) Bullet Registry is a mess. Sometimes you 1 ball someone going 200mph, and then someone walking in slow motion can walk through a line for 10 seconds straight.
3) Fire-Rate increase is what people are mistaking with ballspeed increase - this will improve running through lines but this also is a very difficult thing to change without also ruining the game and would need to be tested thoroughly.
4) Grenades are a MESS. At this point they shouldn't even have the explosion visuals because it is not accurately representing what it hits. I've seen people die through walls, and others sit in the middle of a nade without dying.
5) Methods of improving latency gameplay. -- Given DP requires multiple regions combined to be active, a priority needs to be improving gameplay with ping (I believe I saw Jitspoe mention it before in another thread).
Most of the people I have tried to get back, will play a few matches and leave due to the clear bullet-registry issues. It is VERY hard to convince them to stay - and these are people who are playing for nostalgia and not for "competitiveness" who can not even have fun anymore from this. I agree that DP CAN NOT EVER become some hitscan lazer gun game, it'll ruin the fun. But, the current hit register is far too RNG. I have a demo yesterday of someone with a steel barrel shooting someone at close-medium distance, and watching bullets bounce off....
Adapting to change is part of any game - but when it turns into such an inconsistent atmosphere you lose competitive integrity.
Note: These changes are primarily for the matching/competitive scene. Plenty of other changes will be discussed in other threads to discuss new-play retention (though, consistency in aim will also benefit any new player - as RNG is not good for any game).
NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COME IN SAYING "YOU GUYS JUST CANT AIM" ETC.. If you want the game to grow, these are issues that need to be looked at for retaining old players and growing competitive community.
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Upping the ballspeed helps with hitting lines for example main to checkers on air like back in 2012, but the fire rate definitely needs an increase.
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NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COME IN SAYING "YOU GUYS JUST CANT AIM" ETC.. If you want the game to grow, these are issues that need to be looked at for retaining old players and growing competitive community.
Play automag. Noobs
Fire rate is fine, considering this is literally one hit game. Being on your place guys, I would consider paying for some aim trainer software, kekw
We can just change guns into instant hit, no travel time, to help you guys, like any other FPS game ROFL
Next complain, lower sv_gravity for higher jumps, cuz of inconsistent jumping
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Something has definitely changed. I noticed it myself in a match. I was literally getting hit in the head with paintballs multiple times, and they were just bouncing off. Jitspoe, pls... Make dp great again. I'll pay you like 400 dollars.
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Play automag. Noobs
Fire rate is fine, considering this is literally one hit game. Being on your place guys, I would consider paying for some aim trainer software, kekw
We can just change guns into instant hit, no travel time, to help you guys, like any other FPS game ROFL
Please do not derail the thread.
I clearly wrote that we do not want hitscan, we want some unpredictable/inconsistencies because that's the nature of the game. Nobody is asking for hitscan. We notice changes since 2013 which are validated from demo comparisons - however no changes documented. We are just trying to make the game better for everyone, and improve player retention.
We want the game to grow, and the videos of a ball bouncing off someones head from a close range shot should not be happening. It's simple. It's a problem for people of all skill levels.
If you have nothing beneficial to the argument and want to make just attempted personal trash talk, please leave it to discord or other threads.
Thank you.
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excrement's broke
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excrement's broke
+1
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Its not bullet registry, weren't you once far far far back in history best clan in the game? :3 Weren't you guys also active in 2014 and part of 2015 with no complains? Right after 2013 update. Makes no sense to me that you complain now, when you are having hard times in matches.
If you slow down video, you see one bullet going full speed way above guys head. Then afterwards one ball bouncing off a players head. It's normal. If the guy was on sniper and dropped backwards while shooting, the 2nd bullet lose momentum/speed. It's simple physics. Ball needs to splat with a particular speed, there is nothing too hard to understand.
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sqz = cringe
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excrement's broke
+1
I like inconsistencies, but balls not exploding or stationary targets sitting in a line would be a problem. I get when they are going fast but shouldnt be happening in no movement scenarios.
Sqz, lets try and keep just this one thread about only the topic my guy.
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I'm as real as it gets. I explained you how physics works and why that bullet didn't splash. You are welcome for the knowledge by the way...
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thanks for explaining the physics to me, wouldve come in very useful when I did my physics degree.
The issue isnt necessarily the physics, its the consistency with which they are upheld in the current game state. Id have to wait to see if its attributed to an undocumented game change, or if its intentional. Only jits knows the game in enough detail to shed some light. thanks jits.
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There is incosistency in high-ranged gunfights. After a specific range the majority of the bullets drop off - but not all of them. There is always a small amount of bullets that can travel further than others and actually hit a player. The problem is that it's very hard to tell exactly at what range you are unable to hit a target consistently. Examples shown in demo.
Though, it would be difficult to visualise if bullets' drop off after a specific range. In this example the bullet dropped just before it hit the player, which makes it seem like it did not "register"(https://gyazo.com/b8b04affc5b446f8aae131988985d622). Like Sqz said, the bullet lost momentum and was not able to travel any further because it reached "drop off range" - it's just not properly visualised. I think there should be a consistent drop-off range for bullets if the shooting player is stationary. The range should increase if the shooting player is moving and using momentum.
I think it would be a problem to increase fire rate and ballspeed because of the one-hit factor. If you increase both of that the gameplay would mostly consist of lining across the map from base to base - that would take away alot of tactical aspects. Though, it's true that you can sometimes just walk through lines while the shots are not being registered. We tested that in the past and noticed a difference between servers. We could walk through lines way more often on OTB servers than on Arctics. I don't know if it was coincidence and it probably was not enough data, but it was around 6/30 times on Arctic and 13/30 times on OTB. The 2nd example does not show anything (your opponent had good movement), but it could have been the case in the 3rd example (https://gyazo.com/a168088da8e1ceefe8f023e4d50e7b4f), even though it doesn't mean much if the opponents name appears on your screen because of bullet travel time.
Paintgrenades have visual problems, but I think this is none of the core issues and can be solved later on.
I definetly agree with improving latency gameplay.
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Its not bullet registry, weren't you once far far far back in history best clan in the game? :3 Weren't you guys also active in 2014 and part of 2015 with no complains? Right after 2013 update. Makes no sense to me that you complain now, when you are having hard times in matches.
YES! This is exactly what i wanted to see. Thank you Squeeze. I've been waiting this comment. Because you're right, back in 2014 and earlier when I was the best team I also did notice a change! Don't believe me? That's okay - because there's forum posts that date 2014 showing this! In fact, this was before you were so alpha, and therefore you AGREED with us BIG WOW.
2013 I quit - a year later I come back for a few months and notice these changes. Squeeze, Shk, and others tested these. Due to the inconsistencies back then (and being told nothing changed when we had demo proof it had) - I quit again. LINK: https://forums.digitalpaint.org/index.php?topic=27448.msg249231#msg249231 (note: in 2014 Sqz notes the changes on airtime - and in 2020 it is even worse - no documented changes address either change @jitspoe).
So yes Sqz, I did notice it back then too :) Thanks for reminding that this is a long issue that has been ongoing for 6 years.
Also: This thread is not meant for an ego battle of wits - it's meant to discuss a serious topic. And if you want to see a game grow, you need to address inconsistencies. Yes Sqz we get it, you mastered every aspect and are the best player to ever grace us with his presence. Now that that's out of the way - for people to STICK AROUND in this game and actually play - the game needs to make sense. Can people put the effort to not let the inconsistencies bother them YES - but this is a small game, with a very inactive community having a resurgence right now. If we want this resurgence to last and have some retention - there needs to be consistency. People are already quitting over this, and there's nothing anyone can do to keep them by talking (I tried).
So, to KEEP PLAYERS, so that people can match - some change needs to be done. I DO NOT KNOW what exactly that change is - but consistency has become a major problem. In a game this small, every player kept is a bonus. This isnt something that makes 'bad players have a good chance' - in fact, consistency probably just makes better players EVEN BETTER because they get less RNG. But it's a necessary quality of life change.
@Zenit: I agree that changing fire rate / ballspeed further would cause those issues too. I am not wanting a hit-scan game. Curving bullets, running through lines - it's part of the game. I'm all for someone with momentum steaming in and capping through a line. But, someone walking or standing still should be getting hit consistently when aimed at. And I do not know the fix, so I am suggesting things as the hit registry is just BAD.
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How hard is it to adapt, I mean look it took us 1 hour to adapt to your ball speed change on your server, even tho we are used to default one. I’m sure Myers, that you are smart enough to adapt to physics that has been around almost whole decade, or am I wrong
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How hard is it to adapt, I mean look it took us 1 hour to adapt to your ball speed change on your server, even tho we are used to default one. I’m sure Myers, that you are smart enough to adapt to physics that has been around almost whole decade, or am I wrong
Sqz - Please understand something: This post is not about ME. This post is about player retention. The ball speed change was to accommodate what others demanded to stay - so we found a happy medium (trust me, people still want higher - but we explained the negative results of that).
We managed to turn an NA scene of 1 team, into 10 teams within a week. The biggest spike this games had in years. People had fun, regardless of winning - because they are back for nostalgia of enjoying the game. None of the complaints are because people wont adapt/losing (although, this game is very inactive and there's no incentive to put time to adapt regardless). The complaints are because PEOPLE ARE NOT HAVING FUN WITH HOW INCONSISTENT THE BULLET REGISTRY HAS BECOME. Of the 20-30 players we were able to get back, 5 have full on uninstalled/quit because of the inconsistencies, and a few more have gone inactive. Not because they lost - people are frustrated about those not dying/bullets bouncing off - not because of losing a video game.
It is an ISSUE. That's it. It's not about ego, it's not about trying to be the best, it's not about advantage. It's purely about making the game enjoyable. And this game has had many undocumented changes (or at least, I have not found documentation) resulting in inconsistencies in bullet registry. I am posting because I would love the game to remain active for a bit (I'd say I'd love the game to grow, but that's a tad ambitious).
So please, don't be the person coming in and turning this into some ego battle, don't derail the thread, if you have a problem with it just don't comment if possible. We're trying to have an open conversation about clear issues, that if we can find out the cause and come to a reasonable solution - maybe we can retain some more players.
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Personally for a paintball game that has fast paced movements i like the actual state of the game concerning Weapons firerates.
I'd like to have a slight increase in the dropping/boucing off effect of bullets past certain height & distances but it's not really game breaking mechanic.
I don't want any changes concerning the weapons fire rates. We played a bit on your NA server with 2710 ball_speed and i think i prefered it over the default ball_speed as you could hit shots on longer distances & get rewarded for longer shots but it's not like a super game breaking change.
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I don't want any changes concerning the weapons fire rates. We played a bit on your NA server with 2710 ball_speed and i think i prefered it over the default ball_speed as you could hit shots on longer distances & get rewarded for longer shots but it's not like a super game breaking change.
It is a preferred ball_speed by the NA community too as lines that are meant to be possible - are possible - and it's not increased to a rate to create "new lines".
However, by increasing it, you increase the gap between bullets too. So while we have a ball_speed that allows for lines that were possible and consistent in 2013 to be possible again, the gap between bullets are larger and therefore walking through lines at close proximity happens. This is the primary bother for most - a stationary or slow target SHOULDNT walk through a line at close range.
The issue is, people are having an easier time shooting speeding targets from ice jumps - rather than someone walking. It feels as though hitboxes shrink with lack of movement. Anyways, hopefully Jitspoe looks at this and realizes those playing hours daily in a game with 20 daily players probably are worth listening to.
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Hello,
We have tested variations on the NA Match servers with a large variety of people and found that adjusting the "cvar_set slowballsbounce" to "0" from "1" has increased the range and consistency of ball registry at both close and far ranges.
Demo attached shows this better, as a stationary target shoots checkers to checkers on airtime1. We trial this twice to confirm it was not an act of randomness.
While this is a "temporary" fix to 1 set of servers, it would be nice to create a consistent environment to create a better competitive atmosphere. "RNG" of bullet explosion is not a positive atmosphere. Also, we can put some demos of lines where 3-4 bullets will bounce off a player but the 5th will pop and kill. While 1 bullet may slightly exceed the threshhold of 38% to explode, it creates a lot of variance that is non-controllable to the player.
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I get how you want to help community Myers, and that you went through process of being gamer, through community janitor without getting paid to the game developer. It's all cool and so, but default settings are working very well everywhere if you know how to play around it. This just shows lack of adaptation from players side to not be able to adjust to changes. I only see complains from players that came back after years because they were used to old versions of game, not from players that stick around through this whole time. And I don't blame you guys, not everyone can adapt to changes or want to do so. So the only thing that's inconsistent is you making different settings on different servers and that's it.
You can love it or hate it, it's truth.
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Just found out something interesting: The setting that we changed on NA server to improve Bullet Registry / Consistency - is already changed on some EU servers (specifically OTB servers) where CVAR_set slowballsbounce is set to 0.
It appears this is a CMD that is very inconsistent across the servers, and a few other CMD's are inconsistent. This actually raises a bigger issue of consistency beyond just the game: Match servers SHOULD adopt the same standardized settings (although, impossible to force as it is purchased by the user). But the change from 1 server to another really increases the feelings of inconsistencies.
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Settings for Arctic Match servers:
set PaintGrens 2
set SmokeGrens 1
set autojoin 0
set ball_speed 2660
set chasecamonly 0
set deadtalk 1
set elim 60
set ffire 0
set flagcapendsround 0
set flagmustbeatbase 0
set floodprotect 0
set fraglimit 50
set g_autobalance 0
set gren_explodeonimpact 1
set grenadeffire 0
set guntemp_dec 0
set guntemp_inc 0
set idle 65
set nokill 0
set observerblackout 1
set obsidlekick 0
set slowballsbounce 1
set sv_airaccelerate 0
set sv_gravity 800
set sv_login 2
set sv_maxvelocity 4096
set sv_reserved_password "thatsnotthepassword"
set sv_reserved_slots 2
set sv_votemapenabled 0
set swear_filter 0
set timelimit 20
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Increasing ball speed might help the game. We would see much percise and faster "aiming" which would force players to play smarter.
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Hello everyone - we found another issue with bullet registry.
While we "fixed" (tape-solution'd) the issue of bullets not registering upon contact (a change that the entire active community hated, and even those who I have never spoke with welcome this change and now the entire scene only plays on the NA/EU match servers we put up - but making all bullets explode (though I think we'd prefer not doing this, as bullets bouncing off walls/grass were a situational tool. It would be better if we just removed the "if below 38% initial velocity does not explode" - to revert the game to a consistent state of pre-2013 days (using 2013 as the gap between 2013 to 2014 is where we noticed this change, no date known)
We encountered another issue of players "dying" while fully covered behind a wall. Other games have "desync" so we chalked it up to that. But when messing with ID setting (thinking if I could remove names from showing up, people wouldn't think they're hitting) - I realized when 2 targets are not moving, the ID actually shows the hitbox. And, in doing that I learned the hitbox is actually a good bit bigger than the model. So, I took a few players to test this and then I sent the demos around to more players.
I sent this around to 15 total members of the community before posting to gather feedback, and the most "positive" comment was "yeah DP has always been broken" and various other comments that had a bit worse tone to them so I will leave off the family friendly forums.
Below I will attach the two demos I showed.
First demo: Omni and I testing the "Player ID pop up versus hitting of target" -- Second Demo - Ascra and I testing how this works around walls.
Please take a watch - I also played PUBG with Chem today to try hitbox shooting, and it was pretty much identical to the player model - not some tria
Players dying behind walls, players bullets feeling RNG whether they register or bounce off, the hitbox registering about 50% consistency at the furthest points without any movement -- all these things makes the game inconsistent and un-enjoyable. In order to retain players, things need to MAKE SENSE. People came back cause they enjoy DP, but to truly retain them and new players, things have to make sense. This does not. These aren't things that are "fine" or "will help competitive scene and but be worse for new players."
Player model should be as equal as possible to the hitbox. A stationary target should not have extra space around him.
EDIT: One of the worst parts is when on the outer-edge of the hitbox, you will see times where with absolutely no change in user-positioning, the hitbox will impact/ignore the collision at an inconsistent percentage (could take 100 shots and slow down to get actual percentage, but what matters is it is inconsistent)
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Hello,
I'd like to open a discussion to the public as I've seen MANY people commenting on the topic of Bullet Registry and other issues.
People keep asking for higher ballspeed (even though it wont change much since it'll create a bigger gap between bullets - what they are actually seeking is changes to bullet impact/registry, and fire rate).
Anyways - we are working on a video to show times where players are either having issues with either:
a) Bullets bouncing off players (issue here is the inconsistency of it - medium range bounce off, but then zpar11 fluke 1 bullet across map can explode).
b) Players literally walking through lines (not jumping with speed, walking slowly) or sitting in a line for 3-5 seconds with name lit on cross hair.
UPDATE WITH CLIPS (thanks to various community members submitting - PLS DM me on discord with any)
1) Map: Duck_Fix - Distance: Player shooting is mid therefore within medium proximity. Nobody is moving at a fast pace. https://gyazo.com/b8b04affc5b446f8aae131988985d622
2) Map: Airtime - Further target killed immediately. Slow moving target closer -- name on crosshair, no death. Death when moves faster: https://gyazo.com/8a6c88d45ed5bb1cd3e72f97af8774d8
3) Map: Airtime - Closer proximity, straight line, name lit on crosshair - player does not die moving slowly: (both players 30 ping) https://gyazo.com/a168088da8e1ceefe8f023e4d50e7b4f
4) https://gfycat.com/horribledisfiguredalpineroadguidetigerbeetle -- Map XBMAP1 - Able to kill someone at furthers point away (high on ledge) - but ball bounces off user from closer range.
So anyways here are the primary issues I've heard (and comparing demos from 7-10 years ago of multiple players of differing skills - where it appears more consistent):
1) People requesting more ballspeed inc (THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER TO ANY ISSUES - it's at a good number with 2710 on NA to hit all the lines the maps were intended to allow)
2) Bullet Registry is a mess. Sometimes you 1 ball someone going 200mph, and then someone walking in slow motion can walk through a line for 10 seconds straight.
3) Fire-Rate increase is what people are mistaking with ballspeed increase - this will improve running through lines but this also is a very difficult thing to change without also ruining the game and would need to be tested thoroughly.
4) Grenades are a MESS. At this point they shouldn't even have the explosion visuals because it is not accurately representing what it hits. I've seen people die through walls, and others sit in the middle of a nade without dying.
5) Methods of improving latency gameplay. -- Given DP requires multiple regions combined to be active, a priority needs to be improving gameplay with ping (I believe I saw Jitspoe mention it before in another thread).
Most of the people I have tried to get back, will play a few matches and leave due to the clear bullet-registry issues. It is VERY hard to convince them to stay - and these are people who are playing for nostalgia and not for "competitiveness" who can not even have fun anymore from this. I agree that DP CAN NOT EVER become some hitscan lazer gun game, it'll ruin the fun. But, the current hit register is far too RNG. I have a demo yesterday of someone with a steel barrel shooting someone at close-medium distance, and watching bullets bounce off....
Adapting to change is part of any game - but when it turns into such an inconsistent atmosphere you lose competitive integrity.
Note: These changes are primarily for the matching/competitive scene. Plenty of other changes will be discussed in other threads to discuss new-play retention (though, consistency in aim will also benefit any new player - as RNG is not good for any game).
NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COME IN SAYING "YOU GUYS JUST CANT AIM" ETC.. If you want the game to grow, these are issues that need to be looked at for retaining old players and growing competitive community.
Let's see if I can clear everything up here.
a) Bullet bouncing off of player logic has not changed since 1.76, over 17 years ago in 2003. There are 2 factors when determining when balls bounce:
1) The flat out speed of the ball is < 38% of the ball_speed value.
2) The speed relative to the angle of the surface is < 10% of the ball_speed value (this allows for ricochets at shallow angles).
I misread the code earlier in our Discord discussion, and only #2 doesn't apply to players. Apologies. The only factor for breaking on players is the speed being >= 38% of the ball_speed. In short, if you see a ball break on the world, it should break on a player in the same location when fired at the same velocity. Balls may, however, bounce off the world even if they break on a player at that range, due to the angle (ex: could skip off the floor). The 38% and 10% values are hard coded and can't be adjusted in the server settings, but they also haven't changed.
b) Player movement speed is 300u/s on the ground. Time between shots on the carbine is 0.2s. This means a player can move 60 units between each shot. That's almost twice the player hitbox width. It's not unreasonable for somebody to walk through lines at that rate. Odds are more likely than not that you'll get hit, but there's still maybe a 30-40% chance you can make it moving perpendicular to the line.
Engagement distances in the videos you provided are 500-1000 units. If the ball is travelling at 2660 u/s, that means the ball will take (some math: d=v*t, 500=2660*t, t=500/2660 =) .19 to .38 s. Again, enough to move the hitbox out of the range of the shot if aimed directly, even if the player is moving at ground speed.
Re: Clips:
1) Can't even see the shooter in this one.
2) 1st shot that hit was led sufficiently. Missing shots were aimed behind the player or aimed directly at the player while the player was moving. Shot that hit was aimed at the player while the shooter was also moving in the same direction. Player velocity is added to the shots, so 2 players moving the same direction aiming at each other will actually hit instead of trailing behind.
3) If you step through frame by frame, you can see the shot is already fired by the time the name tag shows up, and it goes to the left of the player. I think you can see the splat from it on the left (see attachment). The next shot is clearly aimed to the right. This is certainly the most questionable clip you've shared, though, as it looks like the shots are firing a bit to the left of the player. I'm guessing it's a demo where the player is using left hand? Looks like a video of a video of a demo, and with all the compression and other players firing in the same area, it's difficult to tell exactly what's happening.
4) Pretty sure the blue player was moving backward, which is going to reduce the velocity and make shots right at the effective range of the weapons bounce.
Re: Primary issues.
1) Increasing the ball speed will simply increase the range. The problem with comparing old demos to current demos is that, of course the balls are going to break at a further distance with a faster speed. They're going faster and travel further before losing momentum. You'd need to find demos of combat at longer ranges where the effective range used to be to see the behavior complained about now.
2) I feel you're exaggerating a bit here. You can't expect to have a line always hit when fired in the general direction of people, and I don't think you'd want that, either. I think it's more of a lack of understanding of how the mechanics work. Let me know if you have any proof of a bug, though. I'd certainly want to fix that.
3) To what end do we stop? Should it be impossible for anybody to make it through a line? Only a 10% chance? 5%? 1%? If it's 1% and somebody does make it through, people will probably be upset in that case, too.
4) Grenades should never go through walls. There are certainly cases where the paint can go OVER walls, though. The client doesn't have enough info to accurately display what the grenade does, and it would be too much data to replicate every projectile from it. I'd have to implement a new effect or something that would require a new client and server and probably break the q2 protocol. Something that could be looked into if it's considered a priority. With no effect, you wouldn't really have any feedback that a grenade was going off, so I don't think that's a good idea. I did add a possible bug fix for a super rare bug of grenades not killing players when directly hit, though. Never was able to reproduce it, so I don't know if it's actually fixed. Will be in the next release.
5) Latency compensation for projectiles would certainly help balance games across different regions. Should also help new players as they won't have to lead targets that are point blank.
Just to clarify, there is no RNG in the hit registration. It either passes the velocity check or fails. There are just a number of systems that go into determining that velocity (weapon, barrel, player movement, etc). There is some RNG in the ball flight, though, which can result in some variation in the range. I think the player movement has a much bigger impact than that, though.
Side note: You say "RNG is not good for any game". I disagree. If you look at the most popular FPS games recently (battle royales), they're almost entirely RNG driven. Even the weapons you get are random. Gives bad players a chance to get lucky and win occasionally, where they'd have an effectively 0% chance in a no-RNG purely skill-based scenario. Also gives players an excuse to blame something other than themselves when they fail. Still, the hit registration in Paintball2 is not RNG. :)
Ok, now that all that's out of the way, let me explain why I made the changes to bring in the range. Originally, the ball speed was something extremely slow. I don't remember the exact value, but it was less than 1300, because I have a check in the code to use a lower gravity value for ball_speed < 1300 in case people want to use the OLD OLD speed and have it behave the same. This, of course, had a lot of restrictions, like not being able to shoot through/under a lot of cover, and the balls having to arc so high they'd hit the sky/ceiling a lot. Later, I realized that the ball speed was WAY slower than real paintballs. I cranked up the speed and made other tweaks to make things more closely match real paintball behavior.
Problem is, I cranked it up too much. It just took me a while to realize this. Of course it's subjective, but the effective range became way too large in my opinion. Combat became way too distant and spread out. Lining became too effective. You could spray a base exit from like 100m/300ft away. It just wasn't fun when the game became less about the combat dance and more about the first person to get into position aims at an exit point and gets a bunch of kills.
As maps evolved to adapt, they made the game lose its close combat charm. Again, subjective, but the things I really liked about Paintball2 were the projectile weapons, the fast paced movement, and the close combat. I'm not a fan of pixel hunting. Take another look at the picture attached below. This was what you considered "close". The character is about 3 crosshairs tall with the dot crosshair. If that's close, what's long range? How big should a character reasonably be on the screen and still be within range of being hit? I didn't think it was reasonable to have targets so far away that they can be entirely obscured by the dot crosshair and still be in range, so I dialed the range back.
Again, the hit registration/bouncing logic has not changed in over 17 years. The range was just brought in. I'm guessing this wasn't a complaint before because the range was so far you couldn't even see it. You know how you can jump up a hill and throw grenades much further (ex: bombsaway)? The same applies to paint. If you're moving forward and/or jumping, your shots are going to have more range than somebody standing still. It's not RNG, it's a subtle mechanic of the game. You can use this to your advantage. Is the frustration that this exists, or is it just an awareness issue?
It's still currently possible to hit players that are completely obscured by the crosshair even after the reduction in range (though less reliable). I'd honestly like to reduce it even more, but I haven't touched it in many years as it's almost impossible to dial things back without upsetting people.
So now I have 2 questions:
1) If you play for a bit knowing how the behavior works, is the ball bouncing still a frustration or is it an interesting mechanic?
2) What do you feel is a reasonable size of the character on screen to still be in effective range? Like post a screenshot. I'm not talking about "this is an effective line on a map made 15 years ago, so it should stay effective", I'm talking about good, healthy engagement ranges for the sake of visibility, gameplay, and observers. We can adjust/make new maps.
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Hello everyone - we found another issue with bullet registry.
While we "fixed" (tape-solution'd) the issue of bullets not registering upon contact (a change that the entire active community hated, and even those who I have never spoke with welcome this change and now the entire scene only plays on the NA/EU match servers we put up - but making all bullets explode (though I think we'd prefer not doing this, as bullets bouncing off walls/grass were a situational tool. It would be better if we just removed the "if below 38% initial velocity does not explode" - to revert the game to a consistent state of pre-2013 days (using 2013 as the gap between 2013 to 2014 is where we noticed this change, no date known)
We encountered another issue of players "dying" while fully covered behind a wall. Other games have "desync" so we chalked it up to that. But when messing with ID setting (thinking if I could remove names from showing up, people wouldn't think they're hitting) - I realized when 2 targets are not moving, the ID actually shows the hitbox. And, in doing that I learned the hitbox is actually a good bit bigger than the model. So, I took a few players to test this and then I sent the demos around to more players.
I sent this around to 15 total members of the community before posting to gather feedback, and the most "positive" comment was "yeah DP has always been broken" and various other comments that had a bit worse tone to them so I will leave off the family friendly forums.
Below I will attach the two demos I showed.
First demo: Omni and I testing the "Player ID pop up versus hitting of target" -- Second Demo - Ascra and I testing how this works around walls.
Please take a watch - I also played PUBG with Chem today to try hitbox shooting, and it was pretty much identical to the player model - not some tria
Players dying behind walls, players bullets feeling RNG whether they register or bounce off, the hitbox registering about 50% consistency at the furthest points without any movement -- all these things makes the game inconsistent and un-enjoyable. In order to retain players, things need to MAKE SENSE. People came back cause they enjoy DP, but to truly retain them and new players, things have to make sense. This does not. These aren't things that are "fine" or "will help competitive scene and but be worse for new players."
Player model should be as equal as possible to the hitbox. A stationary target should not have extra space around him.
EDIT: One of the worst parts is when on the outer-edge of the hitbox, you will see times where with absolutely no change in user-positioning, the hitbox will impact/ignore the collision at an inconsistent percentage (could take 100 shots and slow down to get actual percentage, but what matters is it is inconsistent)
I was sort of under the impression that everybody knew the player collision was just a simple box like other games from its era, though I guess it can be weird playing modern games and then switching back. As discussed on discord, this isn't a trivial change. I can't just make the box smaller, as that will impact the movement of the character as well, and it'll never exactly match up with the mesh. Arms and legs might stick out and you wouldn't be able to hit those, or the character might have some lean in the running animation, etc.
The other issue is that a lot of those issues pointed out in your previous post (like missing shots you felt should have landed at close/medium range) are going to be like 2x worse when shots can fly between people's legs and get even closer to players without hitting. To be honest, I don't really feel like precision hitboxes are a good fit for a fast paced game like this. It's not like you can tell that your shot went between somebody's head and shoulder instead of being a solid hit as they fly off a ramp at 80mph. If this changes, people are just going to hit their shots like 50% less often and it'll probably feel worse and be more frustrating.
Regarding the ID vs. the shots hitting, the shots don't fire from the center of the screen, and they don't fire straight, so that isn't going to line up 1:1. ID is just there to show who you're looking at. It's not an indicator that your shot will land. They're projectiles that fire from (approximately) the weapon. They have a little parallax and travel time. Also, the inconsistency when you were moving back and forth was caused by the slope you were on shifting you to the side as well.
What we COULD do if people think this is a big enough issue is try to address the hitting people standing behind the corners specifically without impacting the in-open gameplay. That would still likely be a lot of work, but at least wouldn't have the negative impacts. I think the effort would be better spent elsewhere, though.
tl;dr: Hit registry hasn't changed and doesn't have RNG, the range was just brought in. Player hitbox is just a box. I don't see any bugs, just limitations of the tech.
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Before I comment I want to preface with: A lot of comments in this thread have evolved since the placement, as we continually have been investigating issues to learn more.
I was sort of under the impression that everybody knew the player collision was just a simple box like other games from its era, though I guess it can be weird playing modern games and then switching back.
tl;dr: Hit registry hasn't changed and doesn't have RNG, the range was just brought in. Player hitbox is just a box. I don't see any bugs, just limitations of the tech.
We did not know this actually - however, we also did not have 144hz+ monitors and gaming computers + experience in other games. So, the comparison to other games naturally brought more understanding and knowledge (also growing up). Also, if you shoot at the very limit of a not-moving target's hitbox, center hand, you will not register 100% of your shots (can provide video/demo proof). I am not a dev, but that feels RNG - though I assume in movement it is incredibly unlikely to recreate and likely not a big deal whatsoever.
I acknowledge precision hitboxes may not be the best fit for a fast paced game.
This is NOT a big issue, this bothered some players for sure - and initial reaction was annoyance - but the specific hitbox itself only creates "irritation" in smaller maps, where someone can be hit while full body is behind a bunker/wall. I would personally recommend that visual update of models (if this does happen one day) to be slightly wider/bigger to better fit the hitbox. As changing the hitbox would change the game drastically, but changing the model to make more sense could be a viable future goal.
What we COULD do if people think this is a big enough issue is try to address the hitting people standing behind the corners specifically without impacting the in-open gameplay. That would still likely be a lot of work, but at least wouldn't have the negative impacts. I think the effort would be better spent elsewhere, though.
GOOD SOLUTION - And this is a big enough issue as a game with roughly ~30 dedicated players (dedicated in the sense of daily play time) has seen 3 people fully quit, and over half in not happy about hitbox. I personally think this is a worthwhile thing to add to your list of planned DP2-Related improvements.
As maps evolved to adapt, they made the game lose its close combat charm. Again, subjective, but the things I really liked about Paintball2 were the projectile weapons, the fast paced movement, and the close combat. I'm not a fan of pixel hunting.
Again, the hit registration/bouncing logic has not changed in over 17 years. The range was just brought in.
Very subjective to the first part - as close range combat still occurs A LOT. The most balanced maps require a mix of jumping and aiming. The players took the mechanics of the game, and pushed it to the limits to be able to maximize the skill involved. This occurs in ALL games and the skill cap is no different - toss a new fortnite player vs a pro / new LoL player vs a pro. I've played league 10 years and a professional would still destroy me. Issue is we lack lower-skill players, but that's because it's a 20 year game and looks as such - which is a discussion for another day.
Can you explain how the range was brought in? I am still not clearly understanding what happened between 2013-2014. None of my comments/complaints are about the 2007 ballspeed changes or before. I understand why you brought the aiming in. Did you make a max range for bullets? In 2013 (and demos watching to verify it's not just my memory) show no bullets bouncing off people... 2020 - bullets bounce every match. The ACTIVE community (aka every single player that does not A) only play jump servers B) only play social saturdays) plays on servers that have "slowballsbounce 0" -- this is UNHEALTHY for the game to have to find side commands to make the game feel playable.
So now I have 2 questions:
1) If you play for a bit knowing how the behavior works, is the ball bouncing still a frustration or is it an interesting mechanic?
2) What do you feel is a reasonable size of the character on screen to still be in effective range? Like post a screenshot. I'm not talking about "this is an effective line on a map made 15 years ago, so it should stay effective", I'm talking about good, healthy engagement ranges for the sake of visibility, gameplay, and observers. We can adjust/make new maps.
1) Ball bouncing was a very cool mechanic in 2013 and earlier - as smaller maps (xbmap1 for example) you could bounce off walls, or certain lines would go further by bouncing on the ground. It was a skill. But, the mechanic of seeing it bounce off a player is just frustrating. I will try to recreate a demo but there are times where 2 stationary targets shoot with no adjustment to crosshair, and 2-3 balls will miss, 2-3 bounce off, and 1 registers. This is where it feels unhealthy. This has made people quit the game. Note: This mechanic on current map-preferences will make aiming less valuable (as it's the "aimers" who have quit as a result, not the jumpers - us jumpstars are still here). DP was actually very balanced when I played between 2007-2013. Aiming and jumping were equally valuable, with strategic play being of most value. Lower range = jumping is more powerful, creating a bigger gap.
2) This is a very subjective question, and it is difficult to say it without including new maps - because we CANNOT just make new maps. At the end of the day, no current mappers have a single map that has been liked. No - this is not because they are bad mappers. And No - it's not because the community refuses to adapt to new maps. It's because they are not FUN, they lack GAMEPLAY, the players making them often lack skill and cannot make good flow/jumps. People who have not ever played competitively do not even understand the strategy in this game... GOOD MAPS cannot be won without pressing space, and also cannot be won without clicking shoot. They require balance that current mappers do not know. A map like Pbcup_pforest (which I personally hate) - is balanced. If you look at the game, the most played maps since I started (2007) would be maps like: airtime / propaint1 / shazam22 / carpathian / pbcup_pforest / pbcup_renoir --- The game is mostly played in 2v2/3v3, and these maps were made before the 2007 ballspeed changes - but all were incredibly balanced. You have to realize GOOD MAPS are a big part of people still playing - so we cannot just make new maps / adjust existing to accommodate. The game is NOT realistic, and being able to just barely hit a shot like checkers to checkers on airtime is NOT pixel hunting - it feels the same or lower distance than you can shoot in almost any game (except bullet drop so you aim to the sky). -- So I would argue the ideal range should be based around the good maps, as they are popular for a reason and trying to balance around theoretical new maps made by people who have never had a popular map is not a reasonable idea.
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Notes without quotes:
Thank you for taking the time to provide numerical data - again, as we can not find any means of documented change in the 2013-2014 range from you, we are forced to use demos to argue our points, and therefore we are jumping around ideas as we cannot find the true reason. If changes were clearly documented, we would be able to properly discuss.
ID vs Bullet - This is something that people are re-learning in coming back. Sometimes it just feels odd as stationary targets appear to be the hardest to hit. But, this same thing allows for curving of bullets etc.. so it is probably more of an issue of people experiencing other games and creating rage in DP (personally, I think ID's should just be turned off so people do not let the text pop up get in their head).
The 4 points:
1) Acknowledged, inc ball-speed was trialed by us and reverted to 2660. People have increased before. We want to keep as consistent as possible with your ideals, as our goal is not to rebel from your settings, but find the most consistent. We are happy to keep 2660, this was not the problem, and increased speeds just made lines/sprays that should not be possible and we felt were unhealthy. No interest in increased ballspeed - was just our initial assumption of change. Tested and was poor. 2660 is the ideal speed.
2) Potentially an exaggeration, but on the same hand people with 10k hours played have a decent idea how the mechanics work - and there's something to be said for play-testing as just the code-side provides only a partial story. I would challenge you to take 2 weeks of your life, 1 week allowing people in comp scene to "teach you" maps/playstyle/gameplay/jumps, and 1 week actively matching/participating in tournaments. While not ample time, I think it would create a better understanding. Immerse yourself into the active competitive community for 2 weeks.
3) I was not making a point here - I was most stating that this is what people thought ballspeed would do. And noted that this could be very detrimental to change and difficult to get right. Was not requesting a change, so there is really "at what end do we stop" - the game used to be very balanced - we just want that back and are examining all options. Fire-Rate is not something that should be changed.
4) Grenades are a mess and from what I have been told, have been for a few years. This would imply a change was made that either intentionally or unintentionally changed grenades. But, until you actively play to see, or we send many videos, it wont be clear. You will not be able to find 1 person who thinks grenades are good - it has gotten to the point where we discussed removing grenades from the servers. This is a DEFINITE priority from the active playerbase opinion.
5) No real comment, you agree it would be good.
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Realistically, if we work together as community and developer, proper changes can happen and makes it so we have a good dedicated base to build off.
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Just to hopefully clarify things, I took a really old build (18) from 2007 before the ball speed change, and you can see the ball bouncing behavior is the same. It's just further back because the ball speed is higher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3-e-JrSvGk
The range isn't determined by some fixed distance. Things like air friction and gravity alter the flight of the ball and if it breaks or not is determined by the speed at impact. The ball_speed setting, weapon, barrel, and player velocity all factor into that. It's possible there were other tweaks than the ball speed (can't remember - that was like a decade ago), but, as you can see, there's not really much different except this behavior happens further up on checkers than before.
Edit: When do you typically play matches? It's difficult to find free time, but maybe we could schedule some time for me to hop in and play in a competitive setting.
Also, regarding the maps, I disagree. We have like 5+ active mappers right now. If we can get people to focus on blocking out some simple gameplay maps and iterating on them (instead of getting caught up on the details), I think we could make some maps that play better than a lot of the competitive maps now. Would be good to take some of the current betas and play them in a competitive setting to get feedback and improve them.
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Also, regarding the maps, I disagree. We have like 5+ active mappers right now. If we can get people to focus on blocking out some simple gameplay maps and iterating on them (instead of getting caught up on the details), I think we could make some maps that play better than a lot of the competitive maps now. Would be good to take some of the current betas and play them in a competitive setting to get feedback and improve them.
I strongly doubt that. Like Myers pointed out, the most popular maps have been played for years for some reasons, but most importantly because of the great competitive gameplay they provide. DirtyTaco's maps (pbcup_pforest, pbcup_renoir, carpathian) are prime examples for a perfect mix of jumping, aiming and tactical depth. You don't have to be a great jumper to perform well on those maps, but it can definitely improve fun and (outplay-)possibilities if you are able to pull off some jumps on these maps.
I think you can split the majority of the playerbase between those, who prefer gamplay with alot of aiming involved and those who love jumping.
Most-played examples for "aim"-maps (few jumps required): airtime, shazam22, propaint1
Most-played examples for "jump"-maps (usually hard jumps, and/or very fast gameplay): tatras, prolandr, sassault4_b3, pp_sw
There is also an example for a map which doesn't fit in any of these categories (not much jumping needed, not much aim either), people only pick it because of the great tactical gameplay: castle1 (some love it some hate it, I think there is no inbetween).
However, the best maps are those who can combine all of these: aim, jump, tactical depth - but those maps are rare. Besides the ones I already mentioned I think maps like duck_fix_b6, wobluda_fix and g2_b2 do also provide great gameplay by combining those aspects.
I am playing since 2013 and I don't think I ever actively played a map that has been made since then - I think most of the best possible gameplay ideas are already covered by the 20-30 maps that are played ever since. People play the game because they love the gameplay that these maps can provide. These are like the "all-time-classics", basically the inofficial maplist of DP.
Most of the mappers who created those maps played the game actively and competitively, therefore they could fully understand the mechanics and judge gameplay aspects. DirtyTaco for example wanted to create maps that are hard to camp on, since that seemed to be a core issue of the game back then: hiding behind walls and spraying corners on bottle-necked maps to defend the lead, which really took away the fun. Now this is possible on only one or two maps; but only to a small extent. If you play it correctly it is almost always possible to get a grab by setting up with your teammates or solo outplaying the enemy team. But he only could figure these things out by playing the game competitively. Sadly I see only 1 of these 5+ mappers playing the game actively (redguy), I probably never played a match against any of the others.
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Edit: When do you typically play matches? It's difficult to find free time, but maybe we could schedule some time for me to hop in and play in a competitive setting.
Also, regarding the maps, I disagree. We have like 5+ active mappers right now. If we can get people to focus on blocking out some simple gameplay maps and iterating on them (instead of getting caught up on the details), I think we could make some maps that play better than a lot of the competitive maps now. Would be good to take some of the current betas and play them in a competitive setting to get feedback and improve them.
Will respond to your first part another day - first will be putting video evidence from 2010-2013 demos to show the bullet interaction has changed. And potentially with that, we can uncover what caused it.
Regarding timing of matches: I would say 6pm to 12am daily you will find matches. Of course, if you jump right into a match you'll not have fun, and you will barely get kills, and get taken advantage of in a match. But, will gladly show you how to play/do the jumps and then bring you into matches.
Regarding mappers: We have 5+ active mappers -> True. But NONE of these mappers have made a successfully played map in the entirety of their mapping time. And this is NOT BECAUSE the "community hates new maps". Every map was a new map at a point, OTH/NML were huge when new for a few years, Wobluda was huge when new, Duck was never played but now actively played.
The issue is, a lot of mappers whom have the technical skill, have 0 idea how this game actually plays in a match and therefore cannot make good maps for the game. On top of that, a lot of them do not have even "medium" level jumping ability, therefore cannot make a natural flow to a map. Rick would probably be the only one who does have jumping ability, some matching exp, and technical skill.
Making a good map is a mix of planning, technical ability, flow, and luck. Some maps "seemed" like they could be good, but after enough matches a lot of flaws are found - or the gameplay is static where 1 style is forced etc...
As zenit pointed out - match maps fall into the 3 categories:
1) Older slow-pace "aimer" maps -- pp1/s22/strap/air/blitz/xbmap1
2) Speed maps where you can win with limited shooting -- Tatras/Prolandr/pp_sw/sass4
3) Mixture of even aim/jump requirement --> DT maps and a few others (wob)
A good map REQUIRES jumping, whether you agree with it or not. It also REQUIRES aiming. Because, as with every game - over time the players and mechanics evolve. This game is alive today because of how it evolved into such a unique game. And the maps that balanced the aiming and jumping aspects, created such great gameplay. But there's a lot of factors to take into account when making a map, and I think you are truly mistaken to think good maps can be made easily. Especially with how many Beta maps we have - those maps HAVE BEEN PLAYED - we do not ignore them - beta's are used in matches. I've run tournaments with random beta maps. People would love a cool new map, lots of teams have spent hours going through beta maps in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough - and could not. There's a reason most games don't have 1000 maps , you cannot make that many maps to support good gameplay.
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I think it's a matter of process. One lone mapper doesn't have to possess all these skills. A beta map can be matched on, feedback provided, iteration done -- heck, it doesn't even have to all be done by one mapper. A competitive player can do the rough blockout and work on gameplay and somebody more technical can clean/pretty it up.
Also, I don't think a good map REQUIRES jumping (offers, sure, but not requires). Let's take a look at another game that has a high movement mastery: Rocket League. The map it shipped with was dead simple. A 3 year old could score a goal. Now imagine if you were REQUIRED to do some crazy stunt where you combined a bunch of mechanics like driving up a wall, jumping, air jumping, boosting, flipping, and hitting a ball midair simply to be able to score a goal. For the pros, that's probably not a big deal, but it inflates an already-large skill gap and throws a lot of new players away because they're below the skill floor.
Also, Counter-Strike: There are surfing mechanics, but when you fire up competitive matchmaking, you're not thrown into a map where you have to surf up to some crazy location in order to be able to plant the bomb.
I believe we can make fun maps that work well in a competitive sense without alienating new players. We need both.
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Also, I don't think a good map REQUIRES jumping (offers, sure, but not requires). Let's take a look at another game that has a high movement mastery: Rocket League. The map it shipped with was dead simple. A 3 year old could score a goal. Now imagine if you were REQUIRED to do some crazy stunt where you combined a bunch of mechanics like driving up a wall, jumping, air jumping, boosting, flipping, and hitting a ball midair simply to be able to score a goal. For the pros, that's probably not a big deal, but it inflates an already-large skill gap and throws a lot of new players away because they're below the skill floor.
Also, Counter-Strike: There are surfing mechanics, but when you fire up competitive matchmaking, you're not thrown into a map where you have to surf up to some crazy location in order to be able to plant the bomb.
I don't think it's fair to compare a gun-play game to a movement game. That's like saying, Ice-Hockey is harder cause it's on ice and therefore increases skill to play, basketball works on normal floor, let's make hockey no longer be on ice as another sport is not.
CS:S high-level play has a significantly higher skillcap, you have people who have played for decades in counterstrike - and the ability to be "top tier" in that game is 100000x harder than it would be to get top tier in DP2. Same for other games like League of Legends - I've played a decade very actively, I have gotten top 500 in NA, and yet, I'd get destroyed by many players. The other games have equal or higher skill caps - they just have MORE players at other levels to hide it, as you can always find games against your skill level - to never see the true skillset.
But yes - a method of making the game more friendly to new players - while also enabling DP to use it's full capabilities without trying to cap the skill. DP2 is a movement game with flukey-1-hit-kill aim - every game has it's concepts that make it unique. The way to make it new-player-friendly does not need to reduce map jumping - it needs maps like Carp/Wobluda/Pfore concepts where you can get EVERYWHERE without pressing space - making it so jumps just allow relocation easier - on top of that, we need to improve tutorials - website videos - to SHOW our skill. CS:GO people go into the game seeing the exact spray patterns, strategies, etc... and STILL cannot compete with top players after a decade. League of legends - you can copy exact builds, leveling, watch hours of gameplay, and still not compete.
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I don't think it's fair to compare a gun-play game to a movement game. That's like saying, Ice-Hockey is harder cause it's on ice and therefore increases skill to play, basketball works on normal floor, let's make hockey no longer be on ice as another sport is not.
This is an interesting comparison. I could see parallels here -- you're going to be able to travel faster on ice, but it requires more skill. I imagine that's part of the reason younger kids are brought up playing an easier version: floor hockey (just with shoes on a normal floor).
CS:S high-level play has a significantly higher skillcap, you have people who have played for decades in counterstrike - and the ability to be "top tier" in that game is 100000x harder than it would be to get top tier in DP2. Same for other games like League of Legends - I've played a decade very actively, I have gotten top 500 in NA, and yet, I'd get destroyed by many players. The other games have equal or higher skill caps - they just have MORE players at other levels to hide it, as you can always find games against your skill level - to never see the true skillset.
But yes - a method of making the game more friendly to new players - while also enabling DP to use it's full capabilities without trying to cap the skill. DP2 is a movement game with flukey-1-hit-kill aim - every game has it's concepts that make it unique. The way to make it new-player-friendly does not need to reduce map jumping - it needs maps like Carp/Wobluda/Pfore concepts where you can get EVERYWHERE without pressing space - making it so jumps just allow relocation easier - on top of that, we need to improve tutorials - website videos - to SHOW our skill. CS:GO people go into the game seeing the exact spray patterns, strategies, etc... and STILL cannot compete with top players after a decade. League of legends - you can copy exact builds, leveling, watch hours of gameplay, and still not compete.
Yeah, I'm not talking about skill cap here. Skill floor is my concern. A lot of maps have trick jumps on main paths/objectives just to have them, and adding a ramp or ladder would effectively make no difference at high-tier play because skilled players will consistently make those jumps anyway, so the only thing it's doing is making the map more difficult for new players to enjoy. I think we agree on this?
being able to just barely hit a shot like checkers to checkers on airtime is NOT pixel hunting - it feels the same or lower distance than you can shoot in almost any game (except bullet drop so you aim to the sky).
Meant to respond to this earlier. These types of ranges are expected for firearms (with metal rounds fired at lethal velocities), but I don't find them to be in the spirit of paintball, which is inherently closer range, and (subjectively) I don't find as fun. It also makes things less readable for viewers, especially when people aren't viewing full screen. Streams and videos with indiscernible specs in the distance aren't exactly entertaining to watch.
This, to me, is pixel hunting, especially at low resolutions where part or all of the character can disappear because it's less than 1 pixel thick:
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This is an interesting comparison. I could see parallels here -- you're going to be able to travel faster on ice, but it requires more skill. I imagine that's part of the reason younger kids are brought up playing an easier version: floor hockey (just with shoes on a normal floor).
You're not from Canada, eh? Most people I know have their first pair of skates on by 2 years old.
Regarding skill floor: I agree some maps (ie Tatras) where jumps are the primary focus - are not ideal as you cannot get both flags without average-level jumping.
I will say the idea that ramps/ladders versus jump makes no diff in comp play because skilled players will do it anyways --> I agree and disagree. It really is case-by-case, because some of them do serve a purpose, or slow speeds of certain paths down, because in this game even being 0.5seconds faster to a specific point can be such an advantage. But I most definitely agree that there's maps that use trick jumps just to use it.
Let's analyze Wobluda more:
1) Flag 2 has slow tunnel BUT main hump: If you just strafe (or even easier using the ice) at a below-average skill level, you can land on the carbine ledge, and therefore get 2 without ANY trick jump (the box is NOT a DJ box, you jump on it, then on 1).
2) "Sewer" is also very easy for any "basic-level-movement" player, but even if its not, if you just dont completely touch the wall, you can land on carbine ledge aswell.
3) Main ice to mid --> not really a jump, just basic ramp on ice. Incredibly easy.
4) Both flags can be visually seen from multiple locations, making it possible to "defend" without force to be in 2 specific spot. Therefore, easy to get to a safe reliable defending spot for slower players.
Would you agree that this map would be an "ideal map" in your eyes for the more competitive side that requires utilizing movement? There's still a gap due to speed of players and ability to mesh multiple jumps together / bounce off ramps properly -- but the skill floor is low.
(Note: I also think Carpathian is up there with wobluda for great maps, while DT maps have jumps that are less visible to the average player due to blending into environment better, the jumps are not "difficult" - though this map has more abusive gameplay aspects than wobluda and is easier to snowball versus less skilled)
Without getting into Pixel hunting I have a question: What is a map (or 2-3) that you consider the ideal DP2 world for you? Like, what maps do you wish were active maps loved by the community, so I can better understand what you would like DP2 to play like.
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You're not from Canada, eh? Most people I know have their first pair of skates on by 2 years old.
I guess just another area where our perspectives are different. :) I feel that, like with ice skating, you're viewing PB2 from the perspective of people that have years of skill built up. If you threw somebody into an ice hockey game who had never ice skated before, it would probably be a similar experience to some of these maps that require lots of trick jumps.
I will say the idea that ramps/ladders versus jump makes no diff in comp play because skilled players will do it anyways --> I agree and disagree. It really is case-by-case, because some of them do serve a purpose, or slow speeds of certain paths down, because in this game even being 0.5seconds faster to a specific point can be such an advantage. But I most definitely agree that there's maps that use trick jumps just to use it.
Yeah, but there are other ways to slow paths without requiring trick jumps. Ramps were just an example of something that could replace some of those jumps. There are a lot of maps that have a double jump up to a ladder and it's just like... why? You could just have the ladder go all the way to ground level. If people double jump off of something to get up the ladder faster, cool, but why require it?
Let's analyze Wobluda more:
1) Flag 2 has slow tunnel BUT main hump: If you just strafe (or even easier using the ice) at a below-average skill level, you can land on the carbine ledge, and therefore get 2 without ANY trick jump (the box is NOT a DJ box, you jump on it, then on 1).
2) "Sewer" is also very easy for any "basic-level-movement" player, but even if its not, if you just dont completely touch the wall, you can land on carbine ledge aswell.
3) Main ice to mid --> not really a jump, just basic ramp on ice. Incredibly easy.
4) Both flags can be visually seen from multiple locations, making it possible to "defend" without force to be in 2 specific spot. Therefore, easy to get to a safe reliable defending spot for slower players.
Would you agree that this map would be an "ideal map" in your eyes for the more competitive side that requires utilizing movement? There's still a gap due to speed of players and ability to mesh multiple jumps together / bounce off ramps properly -- but the skill floor is low.
1) I think your perception of "below-average" skill is way too high. I feel like half the players can't even get past the tutorial. Could the tutorial be better? Sure, but imagine that for your bar for below-average. The carbine ledge could simply have a larger ledge/ramp/something that goes all the way to the hill that could be walked up. Another way to look at it: Could the bots reach it? They're better than like half the players, haha.
The other problem I see with the second flag is that it is the one you have to have momentum to reach, so you're almost always going to go for that one first. If you grab flag 1 first, there's not really a viable path to grab flag 2 quickly, meaning if you're in a flag race with somebody who grabbed flag 2 first, you're going to be at a significant disadvantage. There are seemingly rare circumstances in which you would want to grab flag 1 first, so, at that point, why even have 2 flags?
2) TBH, never would have thought of landing on the carbine ledge from the sewer. I don't know that other players struggling to get the velocity to make it all the way to the flag would think of that, either. You'd have to know you were going to come up short and redirect your angle before hitting the ramp.
3) Mid's not really a problem. There are steps right to it, so even if you don't do the ice jump you can get up there in an easy, straight-forward manner.
4) I don't necessarily see this as a good thing. Maps tend to be easy to defend by default. The challenge is to make layouts that are straightforward that are not super easy to defend. Focus is going to primarily be on the 2nd flag, since people will try to speed to that one, and if they go low, it's easy to adjust. It's nice that it's straightforward, so a new player won't get grabbed on without a clue as to how somebody got to a flag (or that a 2nd flag even existed), but I think a better layout could be done.
To be honest, I think the ice is what makes the map "work", and I don't know that I care for the way it works. In short, I feel like it's fundamentally easy to defend, but the speed at which players can fly through the map and grab means that it's a crapshoot as to whether or not you can hit them because of the rate of fire of the weapons vs their velocity.
I don't really think it's an ideal map. I think an ideal map for competitive play is something that is going to be accessible for somebody playing the game for the first time. People need to become familiar with maps before jumping into competitive, and people have to be able to navigate and have fun on maps before they become familiar with them. Other popular competitive games have very trivial maps to navigate. If you were to take a map from pb2 and throw it in another game without strafe jumping/ice/ramp jumping/double jumps/etc. and it is no longer viable or fun to play, then I don't think it's an ideal map.
(Note: I also think Carpathian is up there with wobluda for great maps, while DT maps have jumps that are less visible to the average player due to blending into environment better, the jumps are not "difficult" - though this map has more abusive gameplay aspects than wobluda and is easier to snowball versus less skilled)
Carpathian has a lot of great things about it, but there are also things I don't like:
- Trick jumps, just to have trick jumps (ex: the castle1 bd style barrel jumps that are just there to be there, and people that aren't familiar with the rich history of discovering unintended trick jumps in maps likely wouldn't even realize it's a viable path).
- Invisible blockers
- Layout and flag placement can be a bit much for people new to it (snowball issue you mentioned, but it's also easy for newbies to get lost).
Without getting into Pixel hunting I have a question: What is a map (or 2-3) that you consider the ideal DP2 world for you? Like, what maps do you wish were active maps loved by the community, so I can better understand what you would like DP2 to play like.
You know, I feel like there are a lot of elements of various maps that I feel have potential, but I'm struggling to think of what I would consider the ideal map.
I like a lot of elements of mirrorr (like being able to shoot from base to base and to mid, so you can potentially kill a carrier or something from a bunch of different locations if you can't catch up to them). Unfortunately, it has a mid flag that requires trick jumps.
Parts of roundup are cool, and I think it's a decent size, but I don't really care for the trick jumps to get to the high path or the sort of tunnel maze to the flag.
Coaster has some technical issues, and the base/cap are kind of weird, but the 3-layer mid is neat.
Propaint1 is ok. Flag position is easily accessible to all players. Most players can't do the catwalk speed jump, though, but maybe that's fine. Texture choice and alignment is pretty bad, though, making it not great to look at. Some paths could stand to be a bit more accessible, but at least the main objectives are solid.
As for range, to avoid pixel hunting, I think the battlements on midnight are decent long-range engagement (~150ft) -- about the same distance as across the bridge in shazam22.