Bullet Registry and other issues

[MyeRs]

Hello,

I'd like to open a discussion to the public as I've seen MANY people commenting on the topic of Bullet Registry and other issues.

People keep asking for higher ballspeed (even though it wont change much since it'll create a bigger gap between bullets - what they are actually seeking is changes to bullet impact/registry, and fire rate).

Anyways - we are working on a video to show times where players are either having issues with either:
a) Bullets bouncing off players (issue here is the inconsistency of it - medium range bounce off, but then zpar11 fluke 1 bullet across map can explode).
b) Players literally walking through lines (not jumping with speed, walking slowly) or sitting in a line for 3-5 seconds with name lit on cross hair.

UPDATE WITH CLIPS (thanks to various community members submitting - PLS DM me on discord with any)
1) Map: Duck_Fix - Distance: Player shooting is mid therefore within medium proximity. Nobody is moving at a fast pace. https://gyazo.com/b8b04affc5b446f8aae131988985d622
2) Map: Airtime - Further target killed immediately. Slow moving target closer -- name on crosshair, no death. Death when moves faster: https://gyazo.com/8a6c88d45ed5bb1cd3e72f97af8774d8
3) Map: Airtime - Closer proximity, straight line, name lit on crosshair - player does not die moving slowly: (both players 30 ping) https://gyazo.com/a168088da8e1ceefe8f023e4d50e7b4f
4) https://gfycat.com/horribledisfiguredalpineroadguidetigerbeetle -- Map XBMAP1 - Able to kill someone at furthers point away (high on ledge) - but ball bounces off user from closer range.

So anyways here are the primary issues I've heard (and comparing demos from 7-10 years ago of multiple players of differing skills - where it appears more consistent):

1) People requesting more ballspeed inc (THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER TO ANY ISSUES - it's at a good number with 2710 on NA to hit all the lines the maps were intended to allow)
2) Bullet Registry is a mess. Sometimes you 1 ball someone going 200mph, and then someone walking in slow motion can walk through a line for 10 seconds straight.
3) Fire-Rate increase is what people are mistaking with ballspeed increase - this will improve running through lines but this also is a very difficult thing to change without also ruining the game and would need to be tested thoroughly.
4) Grenades are a MESS. At this point they shouldn't even have the explosion visuals because it is not accurately representing what it hits. I've seen people die through walls, and others sit in the middle of a nade without dying.
5) Methods of improving latency gameplay. -- Given DP requires multiple regions combined to be active, a priority needs to be improving gameplay with ping (I believe I saw Jitspoe mention it before in another thread).

Most of the people I have tried to get back, will play a few matches and leave due to the clear bullet-registry issues. It is VERY hard to convince them to stay - and these are people who are playing for nostalgia and not for "competitiveness" who can not even have fun anymore from this. I agree that DP CAN NOT EVER become some hitscan lazer gun game, it'll ruin the fun. But, the current hit register is far too RNG. I have a demo yesterday of someone with a steel barrel shooting someone at close-medium distance, and watching bullets bounce off....

Adapting to change is part of any game - but when it turns into such an inconsistent atmosphere you lose competitive integrity.

Note: These changes are primarily for the matching/competitive scene. Plenty of other changes will be discussed in other threads to discuss new-play retention (though, consistency in aim will also benefit any new player - as RNG is not good for any game).

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COME IN SAYING "YOU GUYS JUST CANT AIM" ETC.. If you want the game to grow, these are issues that need to be looked at for retaining old players and growing competitive community.

[shockwave]

Upping the ballspeed helps with hitting lines for example main to checkers on air like back in 2012, but the fire rate definitely needs an increase.

[Squeeze]

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT COME IN SAYING "YOU GUYS JUST CANT AIM" ETC.. If you want the game to grow, these are issues that need to be looked at for retaining old players and growing competitive community.

Play automag. Noobs

Fire rate is fine, considering this is literally one hit game. Being on your place guys, I would consider paying for some aim trainer software, kekw

We can just change guns into instant hit, no travel time, to help you guys, like any other FPS game ROFL

Next complain, lower sv_gravity for higher jumps, cuz of inconsistent jumping

[capo]

Something has definitely changed. I noticed it myself in a match. I was literally getting hit in the head with paintballs multiple times, and they were just bouncing off. Jitspoe, pls... Make dp great again. I'll pay you like 400 dollars.

[MyeRs]

Play automag. Noobs

Fire rate is fine, considering this is literally one hit game. Being on your place guys, I would consider paying for some aim trainer software, kekw

We can just change guns into instant hit, no travel time, to help you guys, like any other FPS game ROFL

Please do not derail the thread.

I clearly wrote that we do not want hitscan, we want some unpredictable/inconsistencies because that's the nature of the game. Nobody is asking for hitscan. We notice changes since 2013 which are validated from demo comparisons - however no changes documented. We are just trying to make the game better for everyone, and improve player retention.

We want the game to grow, and the videos of a ball bouncing off someones head from a close range shot should not be happening. It's simple. It's a problem for people of all skill levels.

If you have nothing beneficial to the argument and want to make just attempted personal trash talk, please leave it to discord or other threads.

Thank you.

[skitzo]

excrement's broke

[Primo]

excrement's broke

+1

[Squeeze]

Its not bullet registry, weren't you once far far far back in history best clan in the game? :3 Weren't you guys also active in 2014 and part of 2015 with no complains? Right after 2013 update. Makes no sense to me that you complain now, when you are having hard times in matches.

If you slow down video, you see one bullet going full speed way above guys head. Then afterwards one ball bouncing off a players head. It's normal. If the guy was on sniper and dropped backwards while shooting, the 2nd bullet lose momentum/speed. It's simple physics. Ball needs to splat with a particular speed, there is nothing too hard to understand.

[shockwave]

sqz = cringe

[UnRateD]

excrement's broke

+1

I like inconsistencies, but balls not exploding or stationary targets sitting in a line would be a problem. I get when they are going fast but shouldnt be happening in no movement scenarios.

Sqz, lets try and keep just this one thread about only the topic my guy.

[Squeeze]

I'm as real as it gets. I explained you how physics works and why that bullet didn't splash. You are welcome for the knowledge by the way...

[UnRateD]

thanks for explaining the physics to me, wouldve come in very useful when I did my physics degree.

The issue isnt necessarily the physics, its the consistency with which they are upheld in the current game state. Id have to wait to see if its attributed to an undocumented game change, or if its intentional. Only jits knows the game in enough detail to shed some light. thanks jits.

[Zenit]

There is incosistency in high-ranged gunfights. After a specific range the majority of the bullets drop off - but not all of them. There is always a small amount of bullets that can travel further than others and actually hit a player. The problem is that it's very hard to tell exactly at what range you are unable to hit a target consistently. Examples shown in demo.
Though, it would be difficult to visualise if bullets' drop off after a specific range. In this example the bullet dropped just before it hit the player, which makes it seem like it did not "register"(https://gyazo.com/b8b04affc5b446f8aae131988985d622). Like Sqz said, the bullet lost momentum and was not able to travel any further because it reached "drop off range" - it's just not properly visualised. I think there should be a consistent drop-off range for bullets if the shooting player is stationary. The range should increase if the shooting player is moving and using momentum.

I think it would be a problem to increase fire rate and ballspeed because of the one-hit factor. If you increase both of that the gameplay would mostly consist of lining across the map from base to base - that would take away alot of tactical aspects. Though, it's true that you can sometimes just walk through lines while the shots are not being registered. We tested that in the past and noticed a difference between servers. We could walk through lines way more often on OTB servers than on Arctics. I don't know if it was coincidence and it probably was not enough data, but it was around 6/30 times on Arctic and 13/30 times on OTB. The 2nd example does not show anything (your opponent had good movement), but it could have been the case in the 3rd example (https://gyazo.com/a168088da8e1ceefe8f023e4d50e7b4f), even though it doesn't mean much if the opponents name appears on your screen because of bullet travel time.

Paintgrenades have visual problems, but I think this is none of the core issues and can be solved later on.

I definetly agree with improving latency gameplay.

[MyeRs]

Its not bullet registry, weren't you once far far far back in history best clan in the game? :3 Weren't you guys also active in 2014 and part of 2015 with no complains? Right after 2013 update. Makes no sense to me that you complain now, when you are having hard times in matches.

YES! This is exactly what i wanted to see. Thank you Squeeze. I've been waiting this comment. Because you're right, back in 2014 and earlier when I was the best team I also did notice a change! Don't believe me? That's okay - because there's forum posts that date 2014 showing this! In fact, this was before you were so alpha, and therefore you AGREED with us BIG WOW.

2013 I quit - a year later I come back for a few months and notice these changes. Squeeze, Shk, and others tested these. Due to the inconsistencies back then (and being told nothing changed when we had demo proof it had) - I quit again. LINK: https://forums.digitalpaint.org/index.php?topic=27448.msg249231#msg249231 (note: in 2014 Sqz notes the changes on airtime - and in 2020 it is even worse - no documented changes address either change @jitspoe).

So yes Sqz, I did notice it back then too Thanks for reminding that this is a long issue that has been ongoing for 6 years.

Also: This thread is not meant for an ego battle of wits - it's meant to discuss a serious topic. And if you want to see a game grow, you need to address inconsistencies. Yes Sqz we get it, you mastered every aspect and are the best player to ever grace us with his presence. Now that that's out of the way - for people to STICK AROUND in this game and actually play - the game needs to make sense. Can people put the effort to not let the inconsistencies bother them YES - but this is a small game, with a very inactive community having a resurgence right now. If we want this resurgence to last and have some retention - there needs to be consistency. People are already quitting over this, and there's nothing anyone can do to keep them by talking (I tried).

So, to KEEP PLAYERS, so that people can match - some change needs to be done. I DO NOT KNOW what exactly that change is - but consistency has become a major problem. In a game this small, every player kept is a bonus. This isnt something that makes 'bad players have a good chance' - in fact, consistency probably just makes better players EVEN BETTER because they get less RNG. But it's a necessary quality of life change.


@Zenit: I agree that changing fire rate / ballspeed further would cause those issues too. I am not wanting a hit-scan game. Curving bullets, running through lines - it's part of the game. I'm all for someone with momentum steaming in and capping through a line. But, someone walking or standing still should be getting hit consistently when aimed at. And I do not know the fix, so I am suggesting things as the hit registry is just BAD.

[Squeeze]

How hard is it to adapt, I mean look it took us 1 hour to adapt to your ball speed change on your server, even tho we are used to default one. I’m sure Myers, that you are smart enough to adapt to physics that has been around almost whole decade, or am I wrong

[MyeRs]

How hard is it to adapt, I mean look it took us 1 hour to adapt to your ball speed change on your server, even tho we are used to default one. I’m sure Myers, that you are smart enough to adapt to physics that has been around almost whole decade, or am I wrong

Sqz - Please understand something: This post is not about ME. This post is about player retention. The ball speed change was to accommodate what others demanded to stay - so we found a happy medium (trust me, people still want higher - but we explained the negative results of that).

We managed to turn an NA scene of 1 team, into 10 teams within a week. The biggest spike this games had in years. People had fun, regardless of winning - because they are back for nostalgia of enjoying the game. None of the complaints are because people wont adapt/losing (although, this game is very inactive and there's no incentive to put time to adapt regardless). The complaints are because PEOPLE ARE NOT HAVING FUN WITH HOW INCONSISTENT THE BULLET REGISTRY HAS BECOME. Of the 20-30 players we were able to get back, 5 have full on uninstalled/quit because of the inconsistencies, and a few more have gone inactive. Not because they lost - people are frustrated about those not dying/bullets bouncing off - not because of losing a video game.

It is an ISSUE. That's it. It's not about ego, it's not about trying to be the best, it's not about advantage. It's purely about making the game enjoyable. And this game has had many undocumented changes (or at least, I have not found documentation) resulting in inconsistencies in bullet registry. I am posting because I would love the game to remain active for a bit (I'd say I'd love the game to grow, but that's a tad ambitious).

So please, don't be the person coming in and turning this into some ego battle, don't derail the thread, if you have a problem with it just don't comment if possible. We're trying to have an open conversation about clear issues, that if we can find out the cause and come to a reasonable solution - maybe we can retain some more players.

[JeongWa]

Personally for a paintball game that has fast paced movements i like the actual state of the game concerning Weapons firerates.

I'd like to have a slight increase in the dropping/boucing off effect of bullets past certain height & distances but it's not really game breaking mechanic.

I don't want any changes concerning the weapons fire rates. We played a bit on your NA server with 2710 ball_speed and i think i prefered it over the default ball_speed as you could hit shots on longer distances & get rewarded for longer shots but it's not like a super game breaking change.

[MyeRs]

I don't want any changes concerning the weapons fire rates. We played a bit on your NA server with 2710 ball_speed and i think i prefered it over the default ball_speed as you could hit shots on longer distances & get rewarded for longer shots but it's not like a super game breaking change.

It is a preferred ball_speed by the NA community too as lines that are meant to be possible - are possible - and it's not increased to a rate to create "new lines".

However, by increasing it, you increase the gap between bullets too. So while we have a ball_speed that allows for lines that were possible and consistent in 2013 to be possible again, the gap between bullets are larger and therefore walking through lines at close proximity happens. This is the primary bother for most - a stationary or slow target SHOULDNT walk through a line at close range.

The issue is, people are having an easier time shooting speeding targets from ice jumps - rather than someone walking. It feels as though hitboxes shrink with lack of movement. Anyways, hopefully Jitspoe looks at this and realizes those playing hours daily in a game with 20 daily players probably are worth listening to.

[MyeRs]

Hello,

We have tested variations on the NA Match servers with a large variety of people and found that adjusting the "cvar_set slowballsbounce" to "0" from "1" has increased the range and consistency of ball registry at both close and far ranges.

Demo attached shows this better, as a stationary target shoots checkers to checkers on airtime1. We trial this twice to confirm it was not an act of randomness.

While this is a "temporary" fix to 1 set of servers, it would be nice to create a consistent environment to create a better competitive atmosphere. "RNG" of bullet explosion is not a positive atmosphere. Also, we can put some demos of lines where 3-4 bullets will bounce off a player but the 5th will pop and kill. While 1 bullet may slightly exceed the threshhold of 38% to explode, it creates a lot of variance that is non-controllable to the player.

[Squeeze]

I get how you want to help community Myers, and that you went through process of being gamer, through community janitor without getting paid to the game developer. It's all cool and so, but default settings are working very well everywhere if you know how to play around it. This just shows lack of adaptation from players side to not be able to adjust to changes. I only see complains from players that came back after years because they were used to old versions of game, not from players that stick around through this whole time. And I don't blame you guys, not everyone can adapt to changes or want to do so. So the only thing that's inconsistent is you making different settings on different servers and that's it.

You can love it or hate it, it's truth.