Player Movement Physics Tweaks

[joonas]

I didn't really want to go into detail because it's quite circumstantial. There's three possible issues that I know of.

1. Maps aren't designed for the new physics
If the maps happen to become less fun to play, it will make the game worse until the maps are fixed, or new maps are made. We've got a buttload of maps though, so there has to be some maps that would work well, or even better with the changes. I hope the map committee can sort this one out.
 
2. More variables and more unpredictable gameplay
New alterations to the physics, such as sky gliding will increase the amount of techniques one can use. This becomes a problem for people who don't like to keep track of even more things. With this update, you could glide for unrealistic amounts of time by a random release of the jump key, and jump from ramps in two different ways, making the gameplay more inconsistent and unpredictable. One could argue that this is a good thing, sure, but it depends on how much more unpredictable the game becomes. Everyone has a threshold.

3. Realism
Skygliding looks more unrealistic than bumping into the sky does (because it can't be reasoned as easily, if at all), so people might be put off by seeing people float around on top of already flying around.

I'm leaning towards removing all of the major gameplay changes and just adding the bugfixes in the next build.

[Ace]

You're not randomly losing control on ramps and unable to jump in places you'd expect to be able to.  What, specifically, bothers you about these changes?

What bothers me is that you don't lose control if you know what you are doing.

[rafalluz]

The thing that sets this game apart from others is the player movement physics, so why not embrace that and improve upon it instead of keeping the old code that was not actually designed to have strafe jumping/double jumping and in fact had several things that prevented it from working smoothly?  It's not like I'm adding rocket packs or auto-jumping.  It's just more consistent.  This does help new players, as it makes the movement even more fluid.  You're not randomly losing control on ramps and unable to jump in places you'd expect to be able to.  What, specifically, bothers you about these changes?

As T3RR0R15T mentioned, I've addressed the concerns about sky gliding and not being able to bounce down hills.  You won't sky glide unless you're holding the jump key down, and if you move down a hill while holding the jump key, you'll bounce like the old-style physics instead of moving smoothly.  Pretty simple.

That means we get a NEW WAY of moving, instead of altering the old one. So no reason for complaints are left. Cool.

[Malware]

People were always afraid of changes, thats all

[jitspoe]

I didn't really want to go into detail because it's quite circumstantial. There's three possible issues that I know of.

1. Maps aren't designed for the new physics
If the maps happen to become less fun to play, it will make the game worse until the maps are fixed, or new maps are made. We've got a buttload of maps though, so there has to be some maps that would work well, or even better with the changes. I hope the map committee can sort this one out.

It's not like I'm drastically changing the way the physics work.  Jump height, velocity, acceleration, etc. are all the same.  The differences are in the little nuances, like not stepping onto a ledge when you should.

2. More variables and more unpredictable gameplay
New alterations to the physics, such as sky gliding will increase the amount of techniques one can use. This becomes a problem for people who don't like to keep track of even more things. With this update, you could glide for unrealistic amounts of time by a random release of the jump key, and jump from ramps in two different ways, making the gameplay more inconsistent and unpredictable. One could argue that this is a good thing, sure, but it depends on how much more unpredictable the game becomes. Everyone has a threshold.

Hopefully, that's a good thing.  I know a lot of players are getting tired of the same-old same-old.  Discovering new tricks and paths in old maps might liven things up a bit.

3. Realism
Skygliding looks more unrealistic than bumping into the sky does (because it can't be reasoned as easily, if at all), so people might be put off by seeing people float around on top of already flying around.

The physics are pretty far from realistic to begin with, so I'm not too worried about realism concerns, but, personally, I think floating along the sky is more realistic than hitting your head and dropping down.  Ideally, maps shouldn't have sky brushes so low that players can run into them, anyway.

I'm leaning towards removing all of the major gameplay changes and just adding the bugfixes in the next build.

The changes are basically all bug fixes.  Some of them just happen to have more significant changes in the movement than others.  For example, fixing the stepping bug (where you come to an abrupt stop jumping up stairs) made it easier to double jump on some objects and do ladder jumps.

What bothers me is that you don't lose control if you know what you are doing.

So you've never had situations where you're moving up a slope and somebody starts shooting a stream of paint so you need to stop or change direction to avoid it but can't because you're stuck "flying" up the slope?  It's true that you can master the navigation of every map with enough time, but sometimes you need to change tactics on the fly, plus not everybody has the time necessary to master all of these little nuances.


Thanks for the feedback.  Feel free to post more concerns.

[SuperMAn]

Is there anyway you can host a build test server?  Something similar to Starcraft2s Public test realm.  Where the public can test changes that the dev team is thinking about making to the game. 

Could even set up a special in game command or something that would take you straight to the Public Test Realm thread, where players could comment on the gameplay changes.

Maybe I should have put this in feature request, but it is relevant here too.  I would really like to play with the new settings BEFORE we are forced to use them.

[prozajik]

The only thing i dont like about theses updates is that sky gliding. I think it would drastically change the gameplay even if it was optional through holding space. Take for example
tatras(ok i know many ppl dont like it but its good example):if you sped from ice-side to BD you could just hang in the sky and get on 2nd flag without perfomming any jumps(at least i guess it would be possible) or you could make jump on main-plateau-high(that window in base where is placed cocker) without knowing how to perfom the jump from ice correctly
or
prolandr:you could speed from ice to 2nd flag without making the jump right (now sometimes happens that when you speed too much you dont get on 2nd flag)
Now it occured to me that this is maybe what you want? Making it easier? But in my opinion it would take all the fun from having ice on maps
Anyway i really like all the other changes and I am looking forward to them

[Ace]

So you've never had situations where you're moving up a slope and somebody starts shooting a stream of paint so you need to stop or change direction to avoid it but can't because you're stuck "flying" up the slope?  It's true that you can master the navigation of every map with enough time, but sometimes you need to change tactics on the fly, plus not everybody has the time necessary to master all of these little nuances.

I definitely have kept sliding, a quick double tap backwards fixes that though. I think this change is a good one for longer term. It will just be odd getting used to for a lot of the common maps.

Like prozajik said, the skygliding is the one that really worries me. There's a few very common maps like ub_cliff where if I carry full speed on the top route and double jump off the little ledge I could probably come close to clearing the whole other side of the top section if the new physics was implemented.

The dj change will just make the game faster paced than it already is if everyone can dj easily. The same applies to ladder jumping. Those jumps are meant to separate the better players, and this would eliminate that. As long as it is more consistent this should be a good change overall since everyone will have the same advantage.

**The biggest suggestion I would have is to let individual servers choose whether or not to run these changes. Or add a check or some small symbol in front of the server name to signify the use of upgraded physics.**

[prozajik]

**The biggest suggestion I would have is to let individual servers choose whether or not to run these changes. Or add a check or some small symbol in front of the server name to signify the use of upgraded physics.**

The idea is good but i doubt its usefull for this community. Even the slightest change was for some people like "omg not this" (talking for example about after-death sound or carbine sound). So i doubt people would play on servers with theses updates allowed. I say make these changes but maybe do something about the sky gliding

[Ace]

The idea is good but i doubt its usefull for this community. Even the slightest change was for some people like "omg not this" (talking for example about after-death sound or carbine sound). So i doubt people would play on servers with theses updates allowed. I say make these changes but maybe do something about the sky gliding

Yeah I see the problem. If it's forced people will get used to it and be fine after a while. If it's an option people will avoid for as long as they can, myself included. The sky gliding really needs to go though.

[T3RR0R15T]

How can you say, the sky gliding is bad (or good) without testing it? It's not like a magnetic sky where you can fly over the whole map. Wait until jitspoe releases a pretest version, maybe you don't notice it.

...Or add a check or some small symbol in front of the server name to signify the use of upgraded physics.**

...there are just a few little things I'd like to do before releasing.  The main one is adding a checkbox to show servers running old versions (off by default)...

[prozajik]

How can you say, the sky gliding is bad (or good) without testing it? It's not like a magnetic sky where you can fly over the whole map. Wait until jitspoe releases a pretest version, maybe you don't notice it.

I can more or less guess it. I am not saying its magnetic but that on some maps you hit the sky with really high speed what would cause this gliding for really long time.

[T3RR0R15T]

Only if you hold the jump key down.

[prozajik]

Ye so people will be able to glide under the sky over a big part of map (i mean high-speed map like tatras etc).
And also what about maps which have sky insted of a part of walls, for example pforest (i think), you will be able to glide sticked to the wall too?

[Ace]

How can you say, the sky gliding is bad (or good) without testing it? It's not like a magnetic sky where you can fly over the whole map. Wait until jitspoe releases a pretest version, maybe you don't notice it.

I can say it's bad because the maps were made with the ceilings low in many places to stop people from hauling at 10000000mph through the whole thing. And I added the checkbox remark to say it's something I think is very needed.

[jitspoe]

Superman: Well, technically the whole game is in a "testing" phase.  I'll release a pretest for a few days and people can play locally or set up servers or whatever.  You don't really need a server just to jump around, but the server and client do both need to be using the same physics setting in order to play smoothly.

prozajik: I checked tatras out.  It doesn't look like the ice ramp to the high flag is even steep enough to hit the sky.  Even if it was, I don't see why that's a problem.  Requiring a bunch of trick jumps in order to reach the main objectives in the game is stupid in my opinion.  The only time I see this being an issue is if it's possible to bypass significant parts of the map (like the mirror window exploit), and that probably only has the potential to happen on a couple of maps.  Those can be fixed in the maps themselves.  Hell, tatras isn't even lit so it should really be fully completed before it's played anyway.  Mappers can add clip brushes on the sky (or better yet, solid surfaces so players know there's a limit there) if they want to kill upward velocity.

Again, remember that the sky gliding doesn't really give you anything extra.  It just prevents you from losing your upward velocity, and you keep moving like you would if the sky brush was not there.

I guess what I'll do is release the pretest with the physics as they are now, and people can post demos of problems they create.

[joonas]

It was a bit alarming to be able to doublejump ramps at first etc., but I'm feeling quite positive towards these tweaks :p I haven't gotten used to everything yet and because of that can't comment that much, but I've found some annoyances.

Increased ground friction
It feels like the ground friction has been increased. Is that something you can change easily, because now I slow down a bit more when I change direction while strafing through maps, which doesn't feel that nice.

No upward velocity cap for doublejumping
You can fly upwards as fast as you want and still be able to doublejump. I'm just wondering whether you could add in a ~30mph limit to it.

[jitspoe]

The ground friction hasn't increased, but the movement does keep you in contact with the ground more when moving down hills (you can hold jump down to skip down hills).  Normal flat ground physics should be identical.

There's never been an upward velocity cap.  It's just that the faster you moved, the less likely you were to be in the stepping threshold and able to double jump.  30mph would be about running speed in this game - that's pretty slow.  I'm not sure what a good cap would be, or if it's even a good idea.   It might make some formerly possible jumps impossible.

[joonas]

My mistake. I'm playing on my other computer right now which might explain why something felt off.

Hmm, you know I didn't really think it through. A limit would come in the way when you're jumping up a ramp for example, so it was a bad idea.

[Ace]

My mistake. I'm playing on my other computer right now which might explain why something felt off.

Hmm, you know I didn't really think it through. A limit would come in the way when you're jumping up a ramp for example, so it was a bad idea.

Yeah a speed cap is a terrible idea to honest.


One other odd thing, I was testing out the physics on a few jump maps to really grind out what the changes changed for jumping. I noticed that when there is a very narrow platform that goes from one level to another it has  chance to "push" you off the ramp. I'll try to get a demo when I can remember the exact map. But the point is that it only happens when your model kind of scrubs the ceiling in order to get to the next level up. It could be a map flaw but I have played the map before and it didn't happen.