Build 33

[Foxhound]

because u get much more air.

enough said...

[jitspoe]

For this map I would prefer the new physics, but the problem I see is that it is pretty rare that you are put into any of these situations when actually playing a map.

The best of the new physics:
-Being able to stop/jump easily on ramps is highly helpful
-The small corridor was smooth compared to the old physics

The worst of the new physics:
-The double jump at the end seemed odd at the end for me... and I make double jumps 99.9% of the time
-Stairs were odd feeling
-stopping instantly made me fall off some of the ramps when I landed because I am used to pressing back when I land... this is just something to get used to I guess

The situations where you literally fall to your death if you lose control on a ramp may be rare, but there are lots of times when this can eliminate you.  If you see somebody shooting a stream of paint at the end of a slope, and you can't stop, for example, that can be a very frustrating way to die.  Bumps in the ground and stairs stopping you can be a pretty common occurrence as well, be they do to details or just bugs in the maps (ex: bridge on shazam22).

I'm curious what you found odd about the stairs.  They should behave the same aside from the random stops, though the smoothing is a bit different.  Do they still feel odd if you turn the old physics on while on the new build?

I can certainly understand changes being frustrating due to old reflexes, but we need to make sure we focus on making things better, not just sticking to what we're used to because we're used to it.

You found the double jump at the end easier with the old physics, or you just found it odd in general?  It's like the high backdoor jump out of the base in propaint1 (just with a box instead of a barrel).  You can try that with new and old physics for comparison.

and the doublejump at the end was a bit easier, because u get much more air.

I don't think you get extra height on the ramp jump before it.  You're just able to get a more consistent step jump on the crate.


I've attached another map that certainly has a rare structure, but it demonstrates the smoother movement of the new physics and how they could be used in future maps.

[Ace]

I've attached another map that certainly has a rare structure, but it demonstrates the smoother movement of the new physics and how they could be used in future maps.

This type of ramp is a really big plus. The height of maps could be increased dramatically without the risk of the ramps shooting in odd directions like they do now.

[Gamabunta]

If you see somebody shooting a stream of paint at the end of a slope, and you can't stop, for example, that can be a very frustrating way to die.

any newbie can just walk across a line from autococker or carbine.

Don't you have better playing strategies than lining newbies, anyway?

I had to post these quotes here. Either admit that you can walk across a stream of paint (because balls are slow compared to player's speed) and that lining is a common thing to do, or stick to the example of dying when going into a stream of paint without a chance to stop (thus, kind of denying the previous).

Please just understand a great deal of players out there: these changes aren't very appealing to experienced players, while newbies won't see any difference because they can't jump anyway (because simply they do not know how, without any tutorial). And although these changes may be needed and may have a positive outcome in the distant future, I don't think they will help any time soon (as long as we still use maps where the old physics is better than the new one and have players that don't want to learn anew).

[Foxhound]

Another problem i found (based on my knew found logic from pp1)  you can DJ ramps... flat ramps.. to gain more height. it like takes into account the angle of the ramp and has you bounce off it getting more height, which is why we couldnt get the ice jump to work on pp1 and is why i could do this on renoir....
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing yet... all i know is its DIFFEREN'T AHHHHHHH


EDIT: alrighty Jits next question partaining to your ramp map.. why can i just use the ramp without pressing spacebar now? and why is it when i do press spacebar.. i stutter down the ramp as if the physics were old? MAKES NO SENSE. if we have to press spacebar down to glide up a flat 45 degree angle ramp what makes your ramp so special? is it because its blue?

[jitspoe]

I had to post these quotes here. Either admit that you can walk across a stream of paint (because balls are slow compared to player's speed) and that lining is a common thing to do, or stick to the example of dying when going into a stream of paint without a chance to stop (thus, kind of denying the previous).

Please just understand a great deal of players out there: these changes aren't very appealing to experienced players, while newbies won't see any difference because they can't jump anyway (because simply they do not know how, without any tutorial). And although these changes may be needed and may have a positive outcome in the distant future, I don't think they will help any time soon (as long as we still use maps where the old physics is better than the new one and have players that don't want to learn anew).

Just because it's possible to cut through lines doesn't mean it's a guaranteed thing.  It's more like a 50/50 shot.  Probably a lot lower if you're actually trying to stop just end up slowing down right in the middle of it.

Newbies who can't jump are probably going to see the biggest difference.  A new player is most likely going to end up on a 24/7 ub_cliff server before long.  He'll spawn on that hill by the flag and his very first steps will be skipping down the hill in a janky way with the old physics.  Maybe he gets shot at and goes to jump or move out of the way, but OOP! Feet aren't touching the ground, so he just dies.  Later he tries to jump up to the high path.  Ho jumps onto the ramp and tries to jump again, but nothing happens.  He was moving too quickly up the ramp, so it started ramp sliding and he couldn't jump.  How would he know that he needs to slow down to avoid the sliding or speed up so he has enough velocity to get up without jumping?

With the new physics, these issues are fixed.  The movement feels much smoother on hills.  You have more control.  New players can consistently jump up to the high path without having any special knowledge of the physics.  Etc.

What, specifically, do you find unappealing about these changes?

Another problem i found (based on my knew found logic from pp1)  you can DJ ramps... flat ramps.. to gain more height. it like takes into account the angle of the ramp and has you bounce off it getting more height, which is why we couldnt get the ice jump to work on pp1 and is why i could do this on renoir....
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing yet... all i know is its DIFFEREN'T AHHHHHHH


EDIT: alrighty Jits next question partaining to your ramp map.. why can i just use the ramp without pressing spacebar now? and why is it when i do press spacebar.. i stutter down the ramp as if the physics were old? MAKES NO SENSE. if we have to press spacebar down to glide up a flat 45 degree angle ramp what makes your ramp so special? is it because its blue?

Hm, this is interesting.  I guess it makes sense, though.  Since you can jump on ramps, now, there's nothing stopping you from double jumping (mspaint diagram attached).  In this particular case, it doesn't change gameplay, as it's just as easy to get to that top box with the old physics.  It's worth keeping an eye out for.  Thanks for the find.

As for the ramps, jumping isn't required for moving up ramps.  It just enables the old-style air-sliding.  With the old physics, if you're moving past a certain velocity on a ramp, the physics treat you as if you're in the air (which is why you can't stop or turn -- only accelerate slowly).  The same thing is true for going down ramps; holding the jump button uses the old physics.  I, personally, hate the ramp skipping, but some people wanted this.

[Foxhound]

As for the ramps, jumping isn't required for moving up ramps.  It just enables the old-style air-sliding.  With the old physics, if you're moving past a certain velocity on a ramp, the physics treat you as if you're in the air (which is why you can't stop or turn -- only accelerate slowly).  The same thing is true for going down ramps; holding the jump button uses the old physics.  I, personally, hate the ramp skipping, but some people wanted this.

is there a way to make it so the space bar doesn't have to be pressed down for this to happen. Enable that to happen and i garuntee most if not all the complaints will go away. for experienced players THIS is what no one likes. i can live with the dj on ramps and such but its the pressing down the spacebar which will really screw up old maps and also take a lot more time to get used to which everyone is saying they wont do.

[Justinph5]

First one to make the new cat banner jump!   LOL   I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of places people are gonna get stuck on maps now.

[Foxhound]

your wall textures piss me off.

baid has a demo of him doing that jump way before you posted this. Not to mention it's not that hard.

[Ace]

baid has a demo of him doing that jump way before you posted this. Not to mention it's not that hard.

True story, i've done it too. Boo to you senor.

[jitspoe]

yossarianuk: I made a linux version for you (link added to first post) while we try to figure out what to do with the physics.



Here's what I'm thinking for the next build:

- Skygliding.  Seems this is problematic due to ice jumps.  I've separated it into its own setting that allows you to cap the upward velocity and defaulted it to 200.  This lets you do things like double jump across ub_cliff, but you only sky glide for a couple feet, so it should have a negligible impact on ice jumps... or you can just set it to 0.  Whatever.

- Water jumps.  I'll probably just have to disable double jumping within a certain time period of water jumping so you don't get the uber boost.

- Holding jump on ramps.  This one is a bit of a challenge.  I think I can make it so that if you're trying to move in the general direction of the slope at a high velocity, it will do the air ramp sliding, but if you try to stop or move backward, it will return to ground physics.  I'll see what I can come up with.

- Higher ramp jumps, double jumps, etc.  This is due to the fact that you can jump on ramps at any velocity.  With the old physics, if you are moving at a vertical velocity greater than 180, it treats you as if you're in the air (no ground friction, no jumping, minimal accel, etc.)  That means you can be moving along at 180 and have full normal control, then suddenly you cross to 181 and you can't jump, stop, or move sideways.  It also means there's a threshold where going faster is slower.  If you're at 180 or below, you can jump and gain extra upward velocity (jump velocity is 270), so you could get a velocity of 450 if you jumped right at the peak controllable ramp velocity.  If you tried to jump just past that, you'd be stuck at a measly 181, and you don't break even until you're moving fast enough on the ramp to exceed 450.  These are arbitrary quake units, by the way, not mph or anything.

I think the best solution here is to allow you to jump at any velocity, but reduce the jump velocity if you're over 180.  If you're going 181, the jump velocity would be 269.  If you're going 449, it would be 1.  Anything above that wouldn't let you jump.  That will still give you appropriate jump control at lower velocities (so you can do things like consistently jump up to the high path from the middle of ub_cliff), but not make it uber.

- Synced settings between server and client.  Ideally, everybody would be running the same settings, but I'm sure there will be a transitional period at the very least, and new players aren't going to know why it gets all laggy walking down slopes, so I need some way to synchronize the physics settings on the client to what the server has so the prediction isn't off.

[blaa]

 The biggest problem I'm having is sky gliding. I don't understand what you're trying to fix there. It's not a game code error or something, it's a map makers mistake. Or maybe he did it intentionally?

[joonas]

- Water jumps.  I'll probably just have to disable double jumping within a certain time period of water jumping so you don't get the uber boost.

I hope that the future timelimit on waterjumps isn't extremely high, but enough to take off some of the potential height off. Another fix would be to add in a vertical speed cap of around 10-15mph for a water doublejump to be done. The ideal cap and whether it works to begin with would need to be tested on various jump maps.

- Higher ramp jumps, double jumps, etc.  This is due to the fact that you can jump on ramps at any velocity.  With the old physics, if you are moving at a vertical velocity greater than 180, it treats you as if you're in the air (no ground friction, no jumping, minimal accel, etc.)  That means you can be moving along at 180 and have full normal control, then suddenly you cross to 181 and you can't jump, stop, or move sideways.  It also means there's a threshold where going faster is slower.  If you're at 180 or below, you can jump and gain extra upward velocity (jump velocity is 270), so you could get a velocity of 450 if you jumped right at the peak controllable ramp velocity.  If you tried to jump just past that, you'd be stuck at a measly 181, and you don't break even until you're moving fast enough on the ramp to exceed 450.  These are arbitrary quake units, by the way, not mph or anything.

I think the best solution here is to allow you to jump at any velocity, but reduce the jump velocity if you're over 180.  If you're going 181, the jump velocity would be 269.  If you're going 449, it would be 1.  Anything above that wouldn't let you jump.  That will still give you appropriate jump control at lower velocities (so you can do things like consistently jump up to the high path from the middle of ub_cliff), but not make it uber.

This kind of fix could potentially affect the way actual doublejumps work. It sounds great as long as it stays within ramps only.

[T3RR0R15T]

Here's what I'm thinking for the next build:

Build 33 or 34?

- Holding jump on ramps.  This one is a bit of a challenge.  I think I can make it so that if you're trying to move in the general direction of the slope at a high velocity, it will do the air ramp sliding, but if you try to stop or move backward, it will return to ground physics.  I'll see what I can come up with.

I don't know, how you can detect if i want to stop or not (don't hold down the forward key anymore?). What about moving sideways? Should it glide or not?

- Synced settings between server and client.  Ideally, everybody would be running the same settings, but I'm sure there will be a transitional period at the very least, and new players aren't going to know why it gets all laggy walking down slopes, so I need some way to synchronize the physics settings on the client to what the server has so the prediction isn't off.

If you do that, should it maybe also enable oldmovephysics automatically on servers with build 32 or lower?





Edit: I've updated the servers [OTB] Beta and [OTB] Public to build 33, so everyone can test the changes there.

[jitspoe]

So I thought the 180 vertical speed limit was just on slopes, but apparently it's for everything.  It's impossible to get a speed > 450 by jumping with the old physics.  With the new physics, it was uncapped.  That's why you're able to get so much air.  I'm capping it at 450, now, so double/triple+ jumping will always be consistent, but sometimes you won't jump as fast.

[Ace]

I'm curious what you found odd about the stairs.  They should behave the same aside from the random stops, though the smoothing is a bit different.  Do they still feel odd if you turn the old physics on while on the new build?

Wel I can normally double jump fairly easily up them. I still can with the new physics, but it seems harder. It's smoother, but harder. I think it's for the best.

[Foxhound]

hmm, sounds interesting ill try it tomorrow when i get the chance! happy you're looking into ramp gliding

[yossarianuk]

Thanks Jitspoe - Linux build 0.33 seems fine - played for about 20 mins - the old crash has gone (by the looks of things)

Its so good that I can join servers now all the time (instead of getting old version warning)

Best new years present !

Unsure about the physics changes also... Will  get used to it though.

Have a good new year to all !

[Shaolin]

LMFAO build 33 is the worst build in dp history! instead of adding things like texture pack to this game u added ur ugly physics. well done jits

[Legendz]

LMFAO build 33 is the worst build in dp history! instead of adding things like texture pack to this game u added ur ugly physics.

+1

i dont get why its necessary to change the best thing on this game..
Gameplay sux now.. b33 is worthless... well it doesnt really improve this game..