Author Topic: New Map: Zephyrus (Read 18210 times)

cusoman · « **on:** December 28, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »

I decided to start mapping again. Worked on this on and off for about a week.

Zephyrus:
-CTF
-All flags worth 5 points (including mid flag)
-Has useless water in the middle to cause lags. It's pretty.
-The usual grass/rock/box/barrel combo

The map was designed to be playable under both the new and old physics. I clipped the entire sky and tested every jump I could to ensure that Zephyrus plays well regardless of the server running it.

I would like to finish this shortly with a full release so feedback is appreciated

- Cusoman

EDIT:

BETA 2 IS OUT: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9007

EDIT 2:
BETA 3 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9013

EDIT 3:
BETA 4 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9040

EDIT 4:
BETA 5 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=9072

EDIT 5:
BETA 6 IS OUT:http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24051.0;attach=10269

Screenshots:

Ace · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2011, 05:46:14 PM »

I love that you clipped the ceiling so that skygliding shouldn't work

jitspoe · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2011, 08:30:27 PM »

Looks good. I've put it in rotation on the beta server. My biggest suggestion would be to add some small boxes to the box pile on the side of the base so if you go into the middle of the base, you can take an alternate route to the flag and not be forced to walk up the stairs.

If you take the left or middle path and go right, there's a small, long cliff/step that seems to always stop me when I hit it. I'd suggest adjusting the slopes so it's within step height (< 18 units) and won't sometimes stop people. I can record a demo if you need me to point out what I'm talking about.

Little nitpicks:
- The shingle texture looks out of place and is upside-down in some places.
- The ladders and railings seem uber-huge (ladder is over 9 feet wide).
- Barrels are too big.
- Might be cool to taper the top edges of the dam-like structure (where the colored stripes are). It would look cooler and make the jump from the box stack in the water a little easier for new players.

Chef-Killer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2012, 06:09:18 AM »

Cool map, great job so far.

I really like the idea and the implementation of the dam-like structure and terrain. The size of the map is nearly perfect, should be good for public server, but also be playable with fewer players. For me one of the best maps in the last time (maybe years). *thumbs up*

There's not much to say in additional of jitspoe's feedback.

I'm not sure if 5 points for the mid flag is a good choice. Just from running over the map - without playing it with others - I'd think 3 points might be better. But I need to test if with players first.

The entities are nice, nothing to improve imo.

And two screenshots:

Red: Nice to see that you added clip brushes here. But in this corner I'd prefer a small box or something like that, because the hole is big. Feels a bit unreal to stay in the air here.

Red: The black face is on both sides (red and blue).

Keep up the great work and try not to finish this map too fast. Give it a chance to get tested public with both physics.

Map is online @ [OTB] Beta!

EDIT 1: Forgot this screenshot

For me it looks a little bit empty here. From an other perspective it doesn't look that extreme.

EDIT 2: One more screenshot ...

Red: I'd add clip brushes here.

Dwayne · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2012, 09:42:06 AM »

the fcks a zephyrus, like sht. are u fckin euro no with these crazy fckin czech names that no1 understands. change the name and ppl might like the map.

It's the same as like 2 other maps you made though. Everytime I don't walk u through each step of your map, they turn out the exact same. u need me. outdoor_a3 , finish it. and that other one that i dont know the name of, but me and that 4 eyes overweight guy who u clanned with made it. (that was code for l!nk if u didn't understand, ok cuso?) no1 knows my hidden mapping talent besides cuso.

i like your barrels.

omni · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2012, 05:46:34 PM »

People don't dislike maps because of there names

jitspoe · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2012, 07:17:26 PM »

The center flag might hurt more than help. I forgot to mention that. Maps with 3 flags don't tend to play that well from what I've seen. Maybe you should just make it support both game modes separately? I guess it just needs some good play testing to be sure. Did I give you the login to the beta server?

Morphin · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2012, 05:15:06 AM »

I like your map.
I am the same opinion as jitspoe . Maps with center flags aren't as popular as other maps. Only "Mid-Flag-Map" which is often played is shock.
I would remove the mid flag and make an low way instead --> - To reduce the possibility of camping
- More ways to get to the flag
Its just my opinion

peace

cusoman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »

Wow lots of great ideas. I fixed everything mentioned except:

- Mid flag
Two of my favorite maps are mirror2 and mystique. Neither of those mid flags are set up like Zephyrus, but they still create three player roles that I really like. The first being the rusher, who rushes to the enemy base for their flag, but serves as a counter to the other team trying to capture the mid flag should they secure it. The second role is the mid player, who has to make sure either your team has the mid flag, or the other team doesn't. He becomes the rusher if your rusher dies and the mid flag is already secured. The third role is slow rusher or mid player not directly concerned with the flag. This player, on a classic CTF setup, would be the camper. The mid flag makes camping in base ineffective, and therefore you have to be close enough to it to make sure that the other team doesn't grab it, while still watching your base. This places the player at the front of their base, rather than inside, which is better than a camper

- Oversized STuffZ
I think it looks nicer like this than a more realistic scale. It doesn't impact game-play, and I do all my maps this way. Style points!

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming!
Beta 2 attached.

- Cusoman

EDIT:
BTW, no need to give me the login since i can't play for another year

I would appreciate some demos from matches or pubs though, so that I can get an accurate view of how the map really plays

jitspoe · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2012, 12:23:43 AM »

Your barrels just look weird, in my opinion. I've attached an image for reference. When I see those barrels in maps, they always come across to me as the mapper being to lazy to figure out proper proportions. Plus the barrel top textures don't line up properly. Style points -1.

A couple other suggestions:
- Consider making the jump to the left (high path) base entrance a little easier. I doubt most players can get that.
- Minor, but on that same path when exiting the base, there's a hole between the boxes (above the ramp) where, if you land in it, you can't jump to the next box. You have to back up, then jump. Kind of annoying if you happen to hit it. Maybe shift the boxes a bit or add something there.

With the white flag, my biggest concern is that fast players can just rush in circles capping the white flag before the other team even gets there. Probably not an issue in matches, but it would be nice to see this map get some pub play. One idea might be to replace the current white flag stand with a window and put the flag down in the water to slow it down a bit. (The window being there so people playing the map for the first time realize there's a flag there).

Ace · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2012, 01:11:49 AM »

The only part that bugs me is that when you go into the water in the middle of the map you are basically in a Nazi killing pit. There is no way to get out without getting completely murked and murdered.

prozajik · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2012, 08:49:32 AM »

Quote from: cusoman on January 02, 2012, 03:21:21 PM

- Mid flag
Two of my favorite maps are mirror2 and mystique. Neither of those mid flags are set up like Zephyrus, but they still create three player roles that I really like. The first being the rusher, who rushes to the enemy base for their flag, but serves as a counter to the other team trying to capture the mid flag should they secure it. The second role is the mid player, who has to make sure either your team has the mid flag, or the other team doesn't. He becomes the rusher if your rusher dies and the mid flag is already secured. The third role is slow rusher or mid player not directly concerned with the flag. This player, on a classic CTF setup, would be the camper. The mid flag makes camping in base ineffective, and therefore you have to be close enough to it to make sure that the other team doesn't grab it, while still watching your base. This places the player at the front of their base, rather than inside, which is better than a camper

Nice reasoning here, BUT,
What if it was 1v1? The 2 players would be just capping the mid flag. So it would be like --> get to the lead by at least one mid flag cap, then make it 1v1 and go just cap it --> End.
OR,
What if it was 1v2? The player who is alone would get capped 2 mid flags if he didnt somehow overspeed the other 2 players.
OR,
even worse if the player who is alone would be (as you say) the camping one, they could jsut grab the mid flag and the player with flag could go near their cap and just wait for the player who is alone to go rush him so they can cap that flag and go cap again on him while the player who is alone would be in enemy base without any flag and surrended by 2 enemies. Surely this option would be available only if the opposite team (who is with 2 players alive) would be leading.

Srsly hope you can understand it, I just wanted to point out that the mid flag isnt that good as you may think. The reason why a mid flag is viable for shock is that the shock is small you can shoot from one "base" to another so you can hit capper even from your base (low possibility but still it makes the mid flag viable)

Edit:If I can suggest something, put the flag on some kind of wood structure with ladder and no other way to get there. Or something like that so the mid flag takes much more time to grab (much more time = the time someone needs to get from cap to mid)

Anyway, nice map i really like your mapping style. And i hope your map gets played in matches, we all need new good maps.

cusoman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:03:13 AM »

Quote from: prozajik on January 03, 2012, 08:49:32 AM

Nice reasoning here, BUT,
What if it was 1v1? The 2 players would be just capping the mid flag. So it would be like --> get to the lead by at least one mid flag cap, then make it 1v1 and go just cap it --> End.
OR,
What if it was 1v2? The player who is alone would get capped 2 mid flags if he didnt somehow overspeed the other 2 players.
OR,
even worse if the player who is alone would be (as you say) the camping one, they could jsut grab the mid flag and the player with flag could go near their cap and just wait for the player who is alone to go rush him so they can cap that flag and go cap again on him while the player who is alone would be in enemy base without any flag and surrended by 2 enemies. Surely this option would be available only if the opposite team (who is with 2 players alive) would be leading.

Srsly hope you can understand it, I just wanted to point out that the mid flag isnt that good as you may think. The reason why a mid flag is viable for shock is that the shock is small you can shoot from one "base" to another so you can hit capper even from your base (low possibility but still it makes the mid flag viable)

Edit:If I can suggest something, put the flag on some kind of wood structure with ladder and no other way to get there. Or something like that so the mid flag takes much more time to grab (much more time = the time someone needs to get from cap to mid)

Anyway, nice map i really like your mapping style. And i hope your map gets played in matches, we all need new good maps.

I do understand where your coming from, but the answer in all three situations is just don't cap

Even if you get capped on first, you have to recognize that capping isn't in your best interest. That is something I enjoy about mid flag maps as well, sometimes the best strategy is to take and hold mid flag, waiting for respawns, or waiting for team support

On to beta 3!

Changes:
- Made side jump slightly easier. This jump wasn't even intended as a jump and was there for looks. I like its difficulty, but I did make it easier so that its more of a proper jump. There are many ways to move around the map without jumping at all, especially after the changes from b2.
- reduced mid flag value from 5 to 3. This flag seems to be the primary concern, and since I want it there, I have decided to reduce its impact on the game.
- I added clip brushes to those boxes so you don't get tripped up in those gaps. Good find

- Oh and I left the water death zone. Try not to fall in

I hope no one takes offense to the suggestions I decide to implement or not. I like all the ideas, and the map is far better now then it was when first released!

Download Beta 3! I think its very close to complete. I would still appreciate a demo from a match, to make sure it plays alright

- Cusoman

Oh, and phat barrels are 4 teh winz.

prozajik · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2012, 01:34:25 PM »

Quote from: cusoman on January 05, 2012, 10:03:13 AM

I do understand where your coming from, but the answer in all three situations is just don't cap Even if you get capped on first, you have to recognize that capping isn't in your best interest. That is something I enjoy about mid flag maps as well, sometimes the best strategy is to take and hold mid flag, waiting for respawns, or waiting for team support

From gameplay i saw in matches (it might be, because nowaday people dont know how to handle mid flag). Well yes you are right but still, but i just thought about something else. A player who is not holding mid flag gets disadvantage, because - he cant rush the player in base because he would cap, if he camps he will get capped aswell. But thats probably his problem he shouldnt have allowed the other player to grab a mid flag. Hmmm ok you won

.
Looking forward to some gameplay tests and also next betas/final, would love to see how the mid flag works in match

Edit:
found a bug, shame on you chef!

Also what about this jump? Is it possible(Edit2:just made that jump its possible but really hard. Edit 3:hmpf that jump is easy if you go from the same base, i always tried to make it from the other base.)? Maybe you might consider making it easier because --> last screen.

If you made ^that^ jump easier it might be nice way for people who are trying to catch capper to actually catch him, if the capper makes mistake and fails that jump.

But also it could be too easier to line capper and kill him without even making that jump, well idk consider it

.

Or you could keep where the cap is and just make that jump easier

there would be still chance to catch a capper without cap being moved.

Demo:what the is that xD, it happens in build 32, but also in build 34 with new move physics!

cusoman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2012, 03:13:04 PM »

That is the jump that I just made easier lol. It was harder in b2, but I made it probably 50-60% of the time. Now in b3, I make that jump nearly every time. I attached a demo of me going 2/3 on it, but the first time was just me missing the boxes

You are doing it in a weird way. Don't go to the side, just go over the middle and use the top of the bridge for speed

In the demo there is also another jump that uses the top the bridge, which is probably the most fun on the map.

Nice find on the wood! Will fix for b4/final (depending on how much other stuff people find)

I will try to make the terrain smoother there to avoid the weird jump bug you found

- Cusoman

prozajik · « **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2012, 03:35:21 PM »

Quote from: cusoman on January 05, 2012, 03:13:04 PM

That is the jump that I just made easier lol. It was harder in b2, but I made it probably 50-60% of the time. Now in b3, I make that jump nearly every time. I attached a demo of me going 2/3 on it, but the first time was just me missing the boxes You are doing it in a weird way. Don't go to the side, just go over the middle and use the top of the bridge for speed In the demo there is also another jump that uses the top the bridge, which is probably the most fun on the map.

Nice find on the wood! Will fix for b4/final (depending on how much other stuff people find)

I will try to make the terrain smoother there to avoid the weird jump bug you found

- Cusoman

Yep realized it after my post that i do it weird way

I think that jitspoe should look into that bug. Fixing it on one map is a temporaly solution, this is obviously some kind of movement bug which should have been already fixed? Its just weird that this can happen even tho i was recording on build 34 with new movement. So please look into it

maybe fix for pretest2?

prozajik · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2012, 04:57:24 PM »

Hey i got a demo for you too

Its from todays match on zephyrus_b2. Unfortunatelly _b3 wasnt online on otb so we played on b2.
I have to say, I really like that map. Its gameplay is based on rushing what is good for me. So i think i will continue to match on it from time to time

Anyway here is the demo

Chef-Killer · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2012, 07:24:48 AM »

Beta 3 is now online @ [OTB] Beta!

I'd wish you'll change a few more stuff me and others mentioned, e.g. the barrels (size or top/bottom alignment).

Quote from: jitspoe on January 03, 2012, 12:23:43 AM

- Minor, but on that same path [...left (high path) base entrance...] when exiting the base, there's a hole between the boxes (above the ramp) where, if you land in it, you can't jump to the next box. You have to back up, then jump. Kind of annoying if you happen to hit it. Maybe shift the boxes a bit or add something there.

Just read this while making a screenshot if it. A small box or a small clip brush should help.

Quote from: cusoman on January 05, 2012, 10:03:13 AM

- I added clip brushes to those boxes so you don't get tripped up in those gaps. Good find

Oh, I meant that the gap (my 1st pic) is so big, that it's a little bit weird to stand in the air. I'd like to see the big gap not clipped because of that. A small box could help that no players get stuck in that gap.

Quote from: prozajik on January 05, 2012, 01:34:25 PM

found a bug, shame on you chef!

My bad, thanks

That's the reason why it's very important to get feedback by different people.

Quote from: Chef-Killer on January 01, 2012, 06:09:18 AM

Red: I'd add clip brushes here.

Not sure if you realized this, because the pic was broken the first time.

I didn't had enough time to test the gameplay yet

jitspoe · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2012, 01:13:59 PM »

I preferred the roof over the white flag in b2. The b3 roof just has too much riveting. There's nothing to break it up. Also, the rivets cast shadows, so if you do want to use that, you'll need to rotate the textures on some sides so the lighting looks correct.

If you insist on the fat barrels, at least scale the top texture up to align them. Those textures weren't designed for 64unit wide barrels. They're designed for 48 units, so I guess that's a 1.33333x scale.

It doesn't look like you changed much, but the side jump is a lot easier. I can actually make it from the center now. Could you make it from the center in b2 (if so, demo)? I had to basically go base to base in order to build up enough velocity.

I find the box pile in the water frustratingly easy to overshoot. I guess that's part of the challenge, but is it fun? I've attached a demo so you can see a couple examples where it's easy to overshoot.

There's a small ledge with grass on it near the water platform, but it's too steep to jump onto. I think if you're going to use a grass texture, you should make the angle shallow enough that you can walk on it. I also have this pointed out at the end of the attached demo. As a bonus, it's another path out of the center if you get in a pinch.

blaa · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

We played in couple of matches. I kind of like it, so far. As the match wasn't dominated by speedcapping or anything... I feel that the map pushes the players to position fights and that's good.

However, I think the mid area of the map is too big, overscaled. You have to aim to the sky to hit the opponent on the other side, which makes it a lottery, who gets who, in my opinion. Maybe add some more furniture there? So it's easier to sneak around and cover the white flag and not to worry about the opponent spraying randomly. I'm talking about the higher area between middle flag and base.

I didn't like that the middle flag was worth 5 points. Made the matches so obsessed about the white flag.

(we played _b2)