Author Topic: New Bot AI Progress (Read 38974 times)

jitspoe · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2014, 02:47:34 PM »

As I mentioned in my .plan, I've just started getting player path following. Perhaps a more accurate term would be "player input replays", as they just record the start point, the end point, and the player input used to get there. I don't have the bots getting exactly to the start point yet. They just replay the player input based off of the closest start point.

Problems:
- No dodging of dynamic objects (ex: other bots/players get in the way and screw up the path).
- Start position and velocity are not always close enough, causing the bot to go off-course.
- No correcting if off-course.
- Sporadic movements, like twitch shots, jukes, etc. get recorded, and look really out of place when there is no combat.
- Since movement is aim-dependent, there's no way to aim at targets and shoot while maintaining the recorded player path.

On the plus side, they make for much better target practice than the old bots. I've attached a demo of them running around in arm while I shoot at them.

ALCOHOLIC · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2014, 02:50:19 PM »

This is awesome. Much better than before

SuperMAn · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2014, 04:24:50 PM »

Looks good! Nice work.

Rick · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2014, 06:08:13 PM »

Lookin' real nice.

FusSioN · « **Reply #24 on:** January 29, 2014, 11:15:23 PM »

Nice new shiny bots!

LaZeRs · « **Reply #25 on:** January 29, 2014, 11:18:20 PM »

Wow! You have good aim...

And nice flowing bots as well.

DooCi · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2014, 09:01:41 AM »

Maybe there should be different level bots like intermediate and easy, or hard

not_payl_obviously · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2014, 10:58:01 AM »

Quote from: LaZeRs on January 29, 2014, 11:18:20 PM

Wow! You have good aim...

And nice flowing bots as well.

Jitspoe doesn't have good aim, just you have bad. Also bear in mind he first recorded same exact path...

I don't see anything really impressive in bots jitspoe posted: Bots that badly try to execute jitspoe prerecorded few paths. Those need much polishing before they can do virtually anything. I'm not sure about all this player recorded paths, this will make aiming whilst executing any movement very hard.
Also bots need some strategy other than just choosing random path and going it's way. Probably marking for bots mid and bases could help if they would choose path that leads to enemy base.
Also maybe depending on difficulty bots should choose from other set of moves, as there are hard jumps on some maps, and bots can execute them every time. But this is still far future.

BASEBALLDUDE · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:13:57 AM »

It should record input differently if there's players in view vs. no players in view.

prozajik · « **Reply #29 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote from: not_payl_obviously on January 30, 2014, 10:58:01 AM

I don't see anything really impressive in bots jitspoe posted: Bots that badly try to execute jitspoe prerecorded few paths. Those need much polishing before they can do virtually anything. I'm not sure about all this player recorded paths, this will make aiming whilst executing any movement very hard.

The work itself might not be impressive, but if you compare it with bots we had before, its an impressive milestone.
Nice improvement, keep it up. Looking forward to seeing these bots on more complicated maps.

not_payl_obviously · « **Reply #30 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:06:55 PM »

Quote from: prozajik on January 30, 2014, 11:25:25 AM

The work itself might not be impressive, but if you compare it with bots we had before, its an impressive milestone.
Nice improvement, keep it up. Looking forward to seeing these bots on more complicated maps.

I can't really agree: Old bots could shot and aim, new can't.
Really adding player playback code is only start, and there are more problems with implementations than features... This will be case for longer than you expect. I think new bots will be more problematic than old, by far. But at least they can jump like anything that could playback input, wow....
I don't see it as a milestone, milestone will be when bots will be able to move without major problems though map, possibly with strategy...
You see prozajik why jitspoe got such simple map? Because those bots couldn't work on anything more complicated, and on this supersimple map they also had problems. I really think it's not time to say "gj" to jitspoe, it's just very very early version which can't do anything.

Cameron · « **Reply #31 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:28:09 PM »

Quote from: not_payl_obviously on January 30, 2014, 01:06:55 PM

I can't really agree: Old bots could shot and aim, new can't.
Really adding player playback code is only start, and there are more problems with implementations than features... This will be case for longer than you expect. I think new bots will be more problematic than old, by far. But at least they can jump like anything that could playback input, wow....
I don't see it as a milestone, milestone will be when bots will be able to move without major problems though map, possibly with strategy...
You see prozajik why jitspoe got such simple map? Because those bots couldn't work on anything more complicated, and on this supersimple map they also had problems. I really think it's not time to say "gj" to jitspoe, it's just very very early version which can't do anything.

Go on then payl, you make something better with the limited time jitspoe has to work on it. I also can't agree with you that it can't do anything, otherwise you wouldn't have seen anything in the demo...

jitspoe · « **Reply #32 on:** January 30, 2014, 08:03:12 PM »

lol, payl is like high expectations Asian father: http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/

Clearly, this isn't the end product. It's just something to show progress. The idea is to, ultimately, stitch these paths together so the bots can reach objectives. The bots still have old-style random wandering similar to the old ACEBots did as well, for what it's worth.

I guess this is really an experiment. I'm not sure if it's passing or failing at this point. I think the best way to do bots would be to give them some sort of spacial awareness of the map so they could plot out strafe jumping paths of their own.

Another alternative would be to, instead of recording raw input, record the angles, positions, and velocities of each jump along a strafe jumping path and have the bot try to match them, allowing for some variation and aiming.

Plenty of challenges with each approach. I'm not sure how much time I'm going to dedicate to bot development.

BASEBALLDUDE · « **Reply #33 on:** January 30, 2014, 08:26:06 PM »

Having good bots is critical to expanding this game. If jitspoe's numbers are correct, then the conclusion is that most people quit after one or two games. Having bots will open up the world of single-player mode, which will basically serve as training for multiplayer. It's also advantageous to have single-player mode because you can play it offline on an airplane or something. The best thing jitspoe can do right now is work on the bots. Map-making for single player mode can be done by JMR, Rick, or Clipz. Other developers in this community can work on the campaign mode and level progression if this game needs that. Someone should also make the tutorial map better while jits does the bots. If everything above is eventually done, no need to rush or get it done soon, then what we will start seeing is an increase in the number of players playing this game.

not_payl_obviously · « **Reply #34 on:** January 31, 2014, 04:40:20 AM »

Quote from: Cameron on January 30, 2014, 07:28:09 PM

Go on then payl, you make something better with the limited time jitspoe has to work on it. I also can't agree with you that it can't do anything, otherwise you wouldn't have seen anything in the demo...

It's just demo, on simple map, and I can notice all bugs jitspoe mentioned (not correctly following path sometimes). If you can't, then don't judge.
Also, I already said I won't help game and there is no need for Clipz to hate me on that. But I have something related: I'm working on aiming, I'll leave you guessing what kind of aiming it is (obviously not aimbot). So when jitspoe finally makes his bot aiming system, we can compare...

Quote from: jitspoe on January 30, 2014, 08:03:12 PM

lol, payl is like high expectations Asian father: http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/

I'm not expecting much, nor I'm surprised with progress. I just can't understand what others are so happy about, it's long way ahead, pretty much everyone knows that. So I just don't feel like saying "gj" when you just started.

Quote from: jitspoe on January 30, 2014, 08:03:12 PM

Clearly, this isn't the end product. It's just something to show progress. The idea is to, ultimately, stitch these paths together so the bots can reach objectives. The bots still have old-style random wandering similar to the old ACEBots did as well, for what it's worth.

Yeah, this seems smart.

Quote

I guess this is really an experiment. I'm not sure if it's passing or failing at this point. I think the best way to do bots would be to give them some sort of spacial awareness of the map so they could plot out strafe jumping paths of their own.

Another alternative would be to, instead of recording raw input, record the angles, positions, and velocities of each jump along a strafe jumping path and have the bot try to match them, allowing for some variation and aiming.

Plenty of challenges with each approach. I'm not sure how much time I'm going to dedicate to bot development.

Well, maybe there is some q2 bot library which can do strafe and other basic things like that so you can include it if it has correct license. Or at least look at to know how to design it? This would help with what solution to choose and what pros and cons it has.
This approach can possibly reduce your work time and make better results.

Clipz · « **Reply #35 on:** January 31, 2014, 05:30:49 AM »

What was the reason to use my name payl? QQ pew pew. Make something better and see if you can get people to play your game. Seeing if people want to be competitive jumping is more important then aim, having bots be able to jump better makes more sense. You can have the best aim in the game but if you can't jump in dp you will get owned.

not_payl_obviously · « **Reply #36 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:56:11 AM »

Quote from: Clipz on January 31, 2014, 05:30:49 AM

What was the reason to use my name payl?

You are my dear hater, aren't you. Oh now don't go "I have no idea what you are talking about", ok?

Quote

Make something better and see if you can get people to play your game.

Paintball never was jitspoe game, he made it along with others, with some other contributors and based on different game. Can't you get over it? He never claimed it's his game, so I won't blame jitspoe, but you guys are ridiculous.
I love that when I actually try give few tips about various things people attack me that "you should try to make it yourself". If I don't have right to criticize jitspoe, you have no right to criticize me, as you haven't made PAC and other various things I made, but somehow you criticize me. This is awful and does not help anyone at all. So please keep those opinions for yourself.

Quote

having bots be able to jump better makes more sense.

I do agree, but you miss point I stated earlier: Demo jitspoe showed does show exactly what me mentioned: Not such a big progress, but people take it as he made something super complicated. He did not.

Quote

You can have the best aim in the game but if you can't jump in dp you will get owned.

I won't agree on this one: Aim is more important, but jumps are also big part of game.

Now, can we get over this? I surely hope so.

Clipz · « **Reply #37 on:** January 31, 2014, 11:28:59 AM »

Aim is not as important as jumping, play me on Zpar and I could prove it with out shooting once. If it was 10 years ago, I'd agree aim would mean alot more. The times have changed and gameplay and with every map having ice doesn't benefit people with aim.

Not saying aim is not important but if you can out jump and fly by people you can win with out a problem.

Toxiic · « **Reply #38 on:** January 31, 2014, 11:36:22 AM »

Quote from: jitspoe on January 30, 2014, 08:03:12 PM

lol, payl is like high expectations Asian father: http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVODv8A5-EM

Anyways, this is just a view of the progress; of course it won't be looking amazing. But over all good job on the progress.

@Baseballdude--Thanks for the obvious. After I posted that post that solo'd all post, there is no need to abbreviate it. Thanks.

not_payl_obviously · « **Reply #39 on:** January 31, 2014, 03:00:13 PM »

Quote from: Clipz on January 31, 2014, 11:28:59 AM

Aim is not as important as jumping, play me on Zpar and I could prove it with out shooting once. If it was 10 years ago, I'd agree aim would mean alot more. The times have changed and gameplay and with every map having ice doesn't benefit people with aim.

Not saying aim is not important but if you can out jump and fly by people you can win with out a problem.

You said how you feel, I said how I feel about this, but you just can't stop forcing your opinion, yes?
I already said that I think aiming is more important than jumping. If you can't get over my opinion just don't post, you are wasting everyone's time. Thanks.