Cartoon Style Texture Discussion

[atmays]

To Jitspoe and the community. What if Dp incorporate cartoon type textures similar to Fortnite? That would be dope (cool, nice, cold, tight, pretty, what ever you use.). I feel Dp is kinda Fortnite before Fortnite. The game doesn't take much to run, is fun, and competitive.

That may draw in a percentage of Fortnite players. Which would only make the world and Dp better. The world need Dp.

I've seen some great toon textures and concepts from other contributors within the community and I really feel they would be cool to actually use while playing. Softer on the eyes as well. I for one would support those, only if everyone will have access to them. You should/would be able to choose those or current texture packs available. Options are great to have.

I feel Dp is gold and should still have full servers all scenes. This could possibly help with that. It wouldn't overwrite other custom textures of custom mappers.

Is it a hacking risk? Why would it not be good for the community? If you're against it, detail why so I can gain a better understanding of your point of view.

[Squeeze]

You can have aesthetically great looking many maps if textures are properly made. Realistic looking textures > cartoon

[MyeRs]

You can have aesthetically great looking many maps if textures are properly made. Realistic looking textures > cartoon

In theory - realism can look nicer than cartoon I agree completely.

However, with what we have and when moving 200mph - I 'personally' think cartoony would be easier to make look good/clean. (I explained to jitspoe a SS on Pforest hill where you can barely see the window because of textures being non-clean in his pack).

Also, looking at almost every texture pack I have ever seen (other than Jitspoe's HR4 pack) - it appears people tend to go for a "clean" look, rather than detailed. Which would make me assume the cartoony look would be more widely preferred. Unfortunately, jitspoe does not want that, and therefore we need to find a middle ground.

I just don't see DP ever getting the level of realism needed, to make DP look "better than it is". Whereas, textures more similar to that of Valorant would probably be less time consuming to create, make DP look "clean", and make it look closer to a 2020 game. It will always look dated if we aim for full realism.

I think (if possible) we should form a community team to work together on texture pack (all custom made to avoid copyright claims) - Many things are needed to be fixed right now, that a texture pack should be more community project. We should, as a community (since this game is alive due to dedicated community members), try to make a priority list of what needs fixed urgent (ie grenades currently are a big issue). And with that, if jitspoe agrees, we can target the real issues in the game - 1 by 1.

[atmays]

I mean, why do we have to pick though? If you want to use real textures use them. Cartoon textures are a nice look. Is it an unfair advantage? Do you think you would lose games because someone is using toon textures? Wouldn't a softer look be good for newer players? Something new but familiar to some of the gamers out there? Is it a fear of hacking? I understand "You can have aesthetically great looking many maps if textures are properly made." I saw some great realistic textures in Dp, very nice but for this type of gameplay, with the speed of the game now. I think toon textures would make it better.

[Zenit]

The problem is that the whole topic is very subjective and based on personal preferrences. Overall I didn't like the full-cartoonish style, such as one-coloured objects. I would prefer "smooth" textures, which are not one-coloured but have a little bit of detail. JMR made a great example which I really liked. I had the idea of providing multiple texture packs to choose from, so everyone could use what they liked the most (that would be kind of similar to the settings you can change in Quake, for example to make players more visible). Jitspoe didn't like that idea since he thinks people are going to pick the one which is most advantageous but ugly. I definetly understand that he wants everyone to have the same conditions, but I think giving out multiple options would be the best way to satisfy everyones taste. As long as he does not want that we should find a middle-way though.

This is also the screenshot Myers was referring to - the window is barely visible and the default/hr4 textures look like a huge mess, since they are heavily detailed. If you add the fast paced gameplay, it kind of looks like a "No Signal TV Screen". Unless we put this game into a different engine I don't think we could make the "realistic" style look pretty.

[UnRateD]

I think there are a ton of casual people like myself who would just pick whatever looks nicest. I personally prefer the toony stuff, just because realism requires a higher time investment before it looks exceptional.

[MyeRs]

I think there are a ton of casual people like myself who would just pick whatever looks nicest. I personally prefer the toony stuff, just because realism requires a higher time investment before it looks exceptional.

I prefer aesthetics - new players prefer aesthetics. Aesthetics keep people playing. Sadly, aesthetics are very very subjective and that is where the issue is.

I think Zenit's screenshot does show Jitspoe's concern - the player model (that model is an issue in itself but discussion for another day) - is more clear in the one with more "cartoon" textures. But... I have played thousands of matches in this game - I have complained about A LOT (read post history) - but I don't recall complaining about "seeing" people other than a select few maps with heavy shadows. Yes - it can be abused. But... maybe I'm a minority opinion here but I'd only really feel that it's advantageous to 1) change skies 2) specific maps (that already have vision issues like ub_columbia/pbcup_Sass). The issue is it's difficult to create a line of "whats legal/illegal".

But, regardless the consensus of it all is that the current HR4's are widely NOT used. This is NOT because "people want an advantage". This is because they are NOT AESTHETICALLY APPEALING. I currently use a pack that is Jitspoe's textures with most things scaled down so that it looks "clean".

Arguments are valid for both sides - I just hope that no matter what we find a solution that is NOT forcing the current HR4 jitspoe has worked on. Which is unfortunate to say as I'm sure he's spent countless hours working on it... but it just does not bring the game out of 2010. JMR made those "cartoon-ish" textures in a few hours, and if the player model got improved - the game turns into a modern day game.

[JeongWa]

I'm totally FOR the use of different texture packs. Personally i would love switching over cartoon-ish textures and i understand some textures would obviously give an advantage over others but as long as it's no solid uniform colour i personally don't care.

My opinion aside i think there is some down sides:

1) Competitive-wise you want everyone to fight with the same tools

2) There is only one official texture pack so far and it's already a witch-hunt every time somebody is using a different texture. (it would only increase the number of DM Jitspoe recieve concerning somebody using diff. textures)

[Mission]

I really loved JMR's example, I'm in favour.

[jitspoe]

Renamed the topic.  The thing that makes this challenging is that it's very subjective.  I, personally, don't like the Fortnite style.  Even if I did, there's a lot more going on there than just texture.  Fortnite has normal maps and much more detailed geometry than PB2.  If you take a rectangle and put a brown color on it, it just looks like a brown rectangle.  If you take a rectangle, add some warps and splinters and nails sticking out, then it can look like a board even without (much) texture.  Fortnite (and other toony style games) LOOK deceptively simple, but they actually probably have more geometry in 1 square meter than most entire Paintball2 maps.  And that geometry and the textures are all built under careful art direction to look consistent.  You can't just slap Fortnite textures on a pb2 map and expect it to look good.  In addition to the geometry, there's also the lighting and other factors.

The existing textures are designed to help hide how low poly most of the maps are and how low resolution the lightmaps are, though there are certainly tweaks that can be done to improve the noise that some people complain about.  I'd rather address those on a case by case bases rather than throw out years of work and replace it with a different style, though.

As far as concerns go, it's about keeping the game fair.  Where do you draw the line between a texture that provides a competitive advantage and one that's just a different aesthetic?  Some people are going to keep pushing on that boundary if they can customize their textures.  Some people don't care about the aesthetics at all and just want the best competitive advantage, and they'll use the most hideous textures they can if it gives them a slight edge, which isn't healthy for the game, as you'll have montage videos and streams with terrible visuals and other players crying foul play.

It's simpler to say, "Use the textures that come with the game, and that's it."  That's how most games are.  No room for grey areas there.  If this is to become a thing, I think it would have to be something that's included with the game as an option, not people manually adjusting texture files.

[MyeRs]

I think (personal opinion), that the simple-textures are more desired, because they are EASIER to make look good (detailed are so hit-or-miss, and in fast pace games do not work well). And, while I do not know the technical side, I can say when I jumped around with JMR's "valorant style" textures, maps looked better. Yes, this is subjective. But, the majority of current DP2 consumers would pick the 1st screenshot over the 2nd (and I'd argue all of the dedicated playerbase would choose it). A few others have dabbled in these textures, and the only person I have seen against it, is you - Jitspoe. The full game looks so much nicer - especially in such a high pace game. Ofcourse, if we wanna make stand still speedball paintball, sure realism of fences and bunkers are prob nicer. But, if the goal is what the consumer actively commits time to - which is a fast pace high action game - then the realism just will never work. It has been complained about for almost a decade now - and the amount of people trying to remake JMR's valorant style shows this.

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Regarding simplicity of "use textures that come with the game" -- I 100% agree. Either let people fully customize (models, textures, etc.. all aesthetics) or do not let them customize anything. And if the textures are nice, I 100% support no customization. This is a topic I think the majority of people also support - we do not have this unnecessary desire to customize the game, we literally just want nice textures and to be able to see where the walls meet the ground/windows etc.. when moving. Very simple what we want.

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Since the topic is DP2 Discussion, here's other topics to discuss that are urgency to your consumers - these 4 things below are things we beg of you to fix:

1) Grenades are random, can explode through walls sometimes, do not match the explosion of the visuals, and let me repeat are RANDOM. You can sit in a grenade, and not die. Literally in the explosion. But - you can also be 10 feet away from any splatter, and die. This is insane and it's been complained about for YEARS.

2) BUG (again, been around YEARS) - Priming a grenade, throw, pick up other grenade immediately, it auto-primes without you doing it, explodes and kills you.

3) I understand hitbox cannot be changed, and you did not document a change between 2013-2014 for balls starting to bounce off players (assuming something was changed where the velocity at 38% considering first time you told me that, you said "slowballsbounce" cmd didnt impact players) -- OR it is something where there's literally just a max range implemented (undocumented from my quick glance at build notes) as it seems even with increased ballspeed there is a set drop off.... - we need to be able to revert to the standards that made sense. Whether that is adjusting the velocity to explode, or another setting. But the balls bouncing off players and feeling random, is unhealthy for the game. And I DO NOT WANT to have Match servers (slowballsbounce 0) to have cmds different than pubs. So, it's either we make it very hard for people to integrate into comp scene (which increase lifespan of their playtime) by having diff settings than they are used to - or we work together to acknowledge whatever changed was not good (we have posted many videos of balls bouncing off, and in 2013 demos this DID NOT HAPPEN - Source: We wathced over 30 demos on banterous.de in specific date ranges).

4) SOUNDS. I asked this verbally and you informed me it is a quake thing, explaining how it occurs at the start of a round. This is NOT the case. You can be mid round, hearing sounds in your base from enemy base. (most notable is water related). Sounds are inconsistent and random, which forces such a reliance on recon.

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There's other luxuries we could discuss (player models, gun models, stat system, "pay system" to get a name/team logo on jersey, textures, basically the feature vote meme list etc..) but before any of those happen, the above 4 should at least be looked into. #1/2 are necessities - its game breaking. The other 2 are arguable on their necessity, but for #3 I do not think a workaround that changes the game should be a positive thing and would much rather be on the same page as all servers - but that's just not possible with the current defaults so we are forced to use a workaround to play the game - I want to work together to find a middle ground so the comp scene does not use this workaround. #4 is just, well, a known bug that is probably worth fixing.

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EDIT:

Note: I do not want to be the "complainer" always writing the long messages, but we have put a lot of effort in reviving the community, to the point there are probably 5-6 matches a day, people are playing 3-6 hours daily, we have run successful leagues -- and we can not keep people with the glaring issues.

Note: While the intent of whatever caused the #3 issue may have been positive in goal (forcing close range fights). DP skill cap is not as high as people claim. The issue is the lack of newbies/pub scene because it is a 20 year old game (and does not LOOK modern) so people either delete by looks or because they are forced against top 1% to even play the game. League of legends is higher skill cap - I've played that game 10 years, many MANY more hours than DP, and the highest I was ever is master tier, still getting pumped by professionals. Why? Because they continually push the limits of the game which causes it to grow and skill cap rises. If someone who actively played in season 1, or even develops without playing, tried to balance based on their very very limited playtime experience, it would cause a riot (ha, riot for Riot Games). There's no requirement for a dev to trust or listen to his community - or even value them - but the game only survives and (maybe) grows with the dev and community getting on the same page.

The toxicity and irritation on both sides stems from:
Jitspoe has idea for the game, and implements towards these ideas feeling as though the speed/shooting is unhealthy. Thinks no matter what he does community rages, so doesn't matter what he does.
Community has idea for the game, they spend hours on playing so think they have expertise. Thinks no matter what they do, Jitspoe will ignore it.

People offered to pay you to work on your game, not even full time, pay-per-feature we want even. You've got true addicts, my boy Shk is on till 4am searching for 1v1's. If this game is more than an item in the portfolio, then it's time we actually work together and stop the dumb divide between comp scene and dev - as from what I've been informed it's been going on for at least 15 years...