Author Topic: Character Start...need CONSTRUCTIVE Critisism (Read 43966 times)

jitspoe · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2005, 01:16:08 PM »

The arms could stand to be a little beefier, but you're getting closer. The wrists and waist still look like the material is really heavy.

The mask still needs some tweaking. The part near the ear, you've got it going up kind of like: _|\_ -- that should be pretty much solid, as I outlined in this picture. The transparent area should probably be a little smaller. The mask should be a little wider on the sides, and then you should probably shrink the whole head down because I think it's starting to get too large. Take a look at http://www.angelfire.com/extreme2/TCPP/mask.html -- there are some flex masks near the bottom.

S8NSSON · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2005, 02:03:43 PM »

I think we have a slight communication problem here.

We initially started out with this mask http://www.havocpaintball.com/24fcdc30.jpg
This is further supported by this image you made, Jitspoe: http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/maskfixes.jpg

Now you are saying you want an entirely different mask.
The mask we started out with is the JT Vission ProFlex.
The mask you are now saying you want is the JT Vission Flex 7
Have a look for yourself:
http://www.jtusa.com/2003/paintball/paintball_visionproflex.asp
http://www.jtusa.com/2003/paintball/paintball_visionflex7.asp

The ProFlex is the mor ehigher end mask, and much cooler mask, imo.
It's the one we started with.
And the one I think we should stay with.

BAD Jitspoe BAD!

* S8NSSON throws WooWoo's 270+ shoes at Jitspoe.

jitspoe · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2005, 04:32:16 PM »

My bad... so many JT Flex this and Flex that masks that look almost the same, heh. Guess ProFlex != Flex Pro.

Some things about the mask still don't look accurate. Just make sure you make it true to one of those masks.

rob · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2005, 04:42:48 PM »

right E O chap

3dblu · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2005, 05:46:50 PM »

just some more progress..........lemme know

IronFist · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2005, 06:07:24 PM »

Post removed

jitspoe · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2005, 08:35:53 PM »

Ok, gonna post a few links to mask images (the proper one this time):

http://www.cd-sportz.ch/shopping/shopx.html?d__JT_Spectra__ProFlex__05_thermal_black2170.htm
http://www.paintball2000.de/news/details.asp?artieklid=775
http://www.ad-paintball.ru/ru/catalog/detail.php?BID=54&ID=6064

Now for the crits:

As you can see in the first link, the visor is thin plastic that snaps on above the rest of the mask -- there's an open space there, so make it detached from the lens in the front and instead make it essentially 0-thickness hovering above the mask in the middle (magenta). It also needs to be larger. Right now it's about flush with the rest of the mask. The mask needs to actually touch the face, not stop at the lens, so bring it all the way in and seal those gaps off (yellow). The lens also needs to go closer to the front of the mask (cyan). If you move it forward, you might want to push the rest of the mask back a little so it doesn't look like it's sticking out too far in front of the face. The dip around the nose area needs to be steeper as well.

The face of the mask actually sticks out a bit and overlaps the part that wraps around the back of the head (red). Also, the edge of it needs to be straighter (green), and the part that covers the nose needs to be brought together more (white). Suggestion: Orient your model so that it's facing the exact same direction as one of those mask photos and render it, then overlap the mask photo on your render with photoshop or something and adjust the transparency so you can have an exact comparison. Tweak it until you can get it as close as possible.

Also, I forgot to highlight it, but the neck of the jersey should be up a little higher around the back of the neck.

And the more I think about it, the less concerned I am about polygon count. I'd like for this to be on par with current gen and potentially next-gen games. The current limit on polygons/verts is 4096, but I can increase that. I don't want this to look dated in a year, you know?

And the SKM code seems to be fairly fast even without much optimization, so I think we'll be OK. Besides, we have LOD, so lower end systems can just use the lower polygon version. So long as polygons aren't being wasted on details that aren't visible or can be done with the skin, I'm good.

jitspoe · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2005, 11:19:44 PM »

I put together a little bit of the mask in Wings3D -- Thought it might be helpful. Unfortunately it only lets me create "solid" objects, but it should be good enough for reference. The face mask and lens total ~70 polygons when you exclude all solidifying polygons.

jitspoe · « **Reply #28 on:** May 11, 2005, 11:30:00 PM »

... and the mesh file (I exported it as 3DS. Hopefully it will open OK).

3dblu · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2005, 11:14:13 AM »

jitspoe · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2005, 01:59:07 PM »

Excellent progress! One thing you need to be wary of is 3DS max's apparent tendency to make long, thin polygons. Those cause hell for UV mapping, especially since we'll need to make skins that will fit multiple model LOD's. Once the model is closer to being finished, you'll probably have to go convert a few polygons to triangles so you can have better control over this (or maybe max lets you control that in other ways?)

The part that covers the ear -- notice how on the photo it goes back further - almost all the way to the back of the head, then curves up sharply? Hmm, actually it looks like that may have come loose and slipped down. See if you can find another photo of the side of that mask. In either case, it needs to move back a little, and I think the strap needs to be a little smaller. The bottom of the goggles needs to be a more continuous U curve. What you have is kind of zig-zaggy. Also, the back of the face mask where it overlaps needs some tweaking. Also, on the middle of the side, near the goggles, there are some overlapping lines. I'm not really sure what's going on there, so my guess is there are some polygons that can be removed.

The visor still needs a lot of work. I think I'd go ahead and define the "layers" or "ridges"... whatever you'd call that: http://www.paintball2000.de/news/details.asp?artieklid=775 They should only add a couple polygons on each side. I think it still needs to stick out further as well.

3dblu · « **Reply #31 on:** May 13, 2005, 08:30:16 AM »

Ok here are some more edits such as added detail to the bill of the mask, also some optimization. The jersey neck also made to look a lil loose. Notice the hard edge on the neck and the chest that will NOT be there the head and body are two separate meshes at this point so that's why that appears.

jitspoe · « **Reply #32 on:** May 13, 2005, 06:46:24 PM »

Looking good. I think the mask is pretty much done. One more tweak though, the part that comes up to the nose, bring that down a bit -- make it more horizontal and expose more of the nose. Oh, and I think the visor still needs to stick out a little more.

Now, for the rest

Shirt: What's the polygon count on the shirt mesh now? The modelled collar, while it looks good untextured, will probably be impossible to see with a texture on it, and it will be hard to scale with different LOD's. It still looks "heavy" overall. I think most of that is in the wrist and waist. About all I can suggest there is get lots of reference pics and try to model after what real clothing does. I think it might be best to merge some of the smaller wrinkles together and make larger, more defined ones and let the skin take care of the smaller ones - cut down the polys a bit. Also, aside from making the material look to heavy, the large sags around the wrists are going to look wrong when the arms are in a different position (which they will be pretty much all of the time -- holding a weapon up, not down at his side), so keep that in mind.

Hands: The hand on the left (his right hand) appears to have rounded finger tips, while his left hand appears very blocky. I assume they're both the same and it has to do with the angle? It would be nice if you could tweak it such that the finger tips looked rounded from all angles.

Shoes: Need a lot of reshaping, put simply. Take a look at these:
http://www.paintballerz.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=270
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00024GNTQ.01-A14LK0ZXSU0XON._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.ppba.com.au/ShoesJTProSeries.jpg
http://www.ppba.com.au/ShoesDyeATC04.jpg
http://www.ppba.com.au/ShoesJTTournament.jpg

3dblu · « **Reply #33 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:52:26 PM »

edits on the shoes, jersey neck, longer visor and fingers

jitspoe · « **Reply #34 on:** May 18, 2005, 05:26:20 PM »

Ok, the jersey still needs a bit of work, I think. The wrinkles near the shoulders look unnatural. This is the area with the most stress on it, due to the weight of the rest of the jersey pulling down, so there shouldn't be much wrinkling going on, at least not in the horizontal direction. I also think it looks a bit polygon heavy when it doesn't need to be. Let's take a look at some reference photos again.

http://www.paintballplus.com.au/images/site/rs-2l.jpg

Notice how there's very little wrinkling on the shoulders, and it's fairly smooth along the outside edge. Focus on the outline here, as that's what the mesh needs to do, outline the model. There are some large vertical wrinkles on the inside, toward the armpit area. That area will be tricky to animate, so keep that in mind while working on it. Also, the wrist area -- it still looks way to "heavy." You've got a big, drooping sag there. Notice on the photo how it only sticks out slightly then comes in sharply at a 90+ degree angle?

Here are some more pics:
http://members.shaw.ca/sniperbob92/voodoo.html
http://www.biglspaintball.com/DSCF1154.jpg
http://www.biglspaintball.com/DSCF1154.jpg
http://www.hoffmanpaintball.com/single_side_jersey.gif

Also, the elastic around the wrist -- that needs to be snug against the flesh, not sticking out, so you can bring that in and delete those edge polygons there. And go ahead and untuck the jersey as well.

Some more pics that might be helpful:
http://www.pandppaintball.com/c5jersey.htm
http://www.rightattitudepaintball.g2gm.com/photo4.html
http://www.paintball-discounters.com/paintball-discounters.com/jersey_empire_invert_gray.jpg

The shoes still need work. Toe is too big and flat, and I think they may just be too big overall. Take a look at the proportions here:
http://www.thesportsauthority.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1393524

The mask needs a little bit of cleanup, particularly on the strap on the side of the head -- You've got edges going every which way -- try to keep everything quads there.

The collar also needs fixing, but I don't have time to explain it. Gotta head out.

3dblu · « **Reply #35 on:** May 20, 2005, 02:19:41 PM »

Update..........jersey untucked, need crits. I will be gone this week from sun-sun(5/20-29) most likely, so I prob won't get back to this till then.

jitspoe · « **Reply #36 on:** May 20, 2005, 03:18:45 PM »

It still looks like it's tucked in, just hanging down further. You need to do away with the horzontal wrinkles and make them more vertical. And you mirrored it and lost the uniqueness of each side.

I liked that. I guess it can be re-added later, though I think I prefered the other leg better.

One thing that I think needs addressing overall: It appears as though you're trying to seal off each mesh in the model You don't need to do this. In fact, it might be best to make the whole thing one mesh, then break it apart when it's finished. So long as there are no gaps visible, it's all good. Anything else is wasted polygons, and in the case of overlap, wasted fillrate, too.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we need clean breakpoints for unwrapping the skin. I think the most logical way to do it would be to simply have the breaks right along where the fabric seams would be. I think the mesh resembles that somewhat already, but those edges just need to be straightened out so no weird stretching occurs. At some point I'll need to look at the mesh and make sure there's nothing problematic going on that isn't visible. Think you could post that before you leave and I'll take a peek at it while you're gone?

3dblu · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2005, 07:41:15 PM »

updates

3dblu · « **Reply #38 on:** May 31, 2005, 07:42:32 PM »

jitspoe · « **Reply #39 on:** June 02, 2005, 03:35:21 PM »

Looking good. I think we're about ready to move onto the next step. A couple more minor tweaks first, though -- I'd like for you to make each side unique like you did (or it looks like you did) here. Also go ahead and drop the bottom untucked jersey down a little bit.

Also, make sure you have some polygon edges along where the seams of the clothing would be. I think that'll be the best way to unwrap it. The resulting unwrap should look something like this: http://www.pbaz.com/pictures/RMRRamrod/ricochetfactory.jpg (only we'll want to be much more efficient with space usage -- I'd like for the mesh to use 90%+ of the texture if possible). Also keep in mind that the shoes, pants, jersey, mask, gloves, head will all use separate skins to allow for lots of player customization (and reuse on other models once we make them).

We need to start thinking about jersey designs, too. The problem is most jerseys are mostly black, and I've already had complaints about it being difficult to tell the color of the current model, so the designs we use are going to have to be mostly color. Here are some I think would work well:
http://www.paintball-vision.de/images/big/dye_001.jpg
http://www.paintball.at/site/shop/images/proto_jer_blau_gross.jpg
http://www.paintballplus.com.au/images/site/rs-2l.jpg

Not sure if we should go with real jersey designs or design some of our own -- I should probably write for permission to use copyrighted names and such.