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[Dirty_Taco]

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[jitspoe]

ksplat2?  That's a 1-pather.  You should do midnight2 instead.

I assume everglade is going to be the new (mostly) fixed up version?

[DrRickDaglessMD]

after looking over this map list, im actually gobsmacked.

Almost all the maps are very similar; all of them are very large, far too complex, and the biggest problem of all: very er33t centric.

to be honest im not exactly surprised given the organisers of this league, but I think this needs serious addressing as it may as well be renamed 'PBCup.com - Arrange to lose to er33t...more!'.

Castle1 is an exception however, because its in my opinion the theoretically best map for this league (lots of paths, lots of tricks and excellent for team strategies and game-plans, 2 flags for even more varied strategy). This presents a problem though as whoever meets er33t's squad in the 3rd week may as well just forfeit right then, though that probably can't be avoided.

pbcup_sassault is...interesting. I'm not personally a huge fan of the sassault series, but technically it seems ok though ive not had a great deal of playtesting on it yet. The only issue i have is with the lighting, its far too dark, and I can envision whoever meets DT on it is f***ed.

Also, Warhouse and Sphouse?? what the hell? they are awful maps. The only thing that would save you on a maps like those are extreme amounts of practice so you can map it all out in your head already, and frankly, id rather stab my eyes out with a fork than play more than 1 round on either of them.

crimethink. No offense DT, but this map is horrible. looks good, plays disgracefully. Also, its far too easy to get on top of the level, which sort of skims the rule about not using exploits (seeing as from these easy to reach places you can see through the level...).

I personally hate Midnight, but technically its sound, and has decent gameplay esp. for 4 vs 4 play, so i can abide this choice.

Individual maps aside, the sizes are just too big. A lot of them are blatantly designed for 8 on 8's etc... so you are simply weeding out the teams with an uneven balance of skil (ie expecting each player to be skilled enough to be responsible for each path (or whatever) forcing the map into a series of 1 vs 1's which, if you happen to lose the confrontation, creates a weakness in your teams strategy - encouraging simple camping the bases so as to back up your defence). I propose that there needs to be much more variance in map sizes (shazam22, ub_rooftop, encounter, etc...) which offer similar sort of play but change the mode of play significantly due to the more compactedness of the paths and flashpoints.

plus, 10 mins spread over such huge maps cant be that interesting. Brainstorm can be an example, how many rounds are you going to get out of that? say 1 player per team is left alive on both teams...zzzzzzZZzzz.

Perhaps you could put it to a general vote - players offer up suggestions, the best of these are voted for, then the final shortlist is decided on by the panel, or maybe an independent comittee?

I don't need a flamewar or anything, but I do feel strongly about this maplist - that its a mistake.

- Dr Rick Dagless M.D

[wow]

Wow. Take the maplist and burn it, then bury the ashes far far away.

I could sit here for hours complaining about the maps, but i wont.

Actually....

Crimethink and summer?!?! What were you smoking when you picked these as good maps?! I dont know how these fit the criteria, theyre far to expansive, the gameplay is shocking, and no one will want to play them. Most of the maps on here are one which will empty a pub server within seconds. There are, in my opinion, only 2 decent maps on there: roundup and pball_shreds1.

Get rid of the rest, especially the over complicated Taco maps, which look great but play like s**t. I dont wanna judge but this seems like abit of shameless self promotion by Taco.

I think youve overlooked the fact that this league is for fun, let the players pick the maps. Dont treat us like idiots, we know which maps are fun, and we know which maps will suit 4vs4. I think er33ts determination to win this league has clouded their jedgement somewhat. This is a league for all dp clans, not just what suits er33t.

However, im not just here to criticise, im also going to put forward some suggestions. I think it would be best if you had 2 pools A and B. In pool A you have the bigger maps, and pool b you have some medium sized ones (some Rick suggested). Let the players vote for one map from each, once the maps have been played they leave the pool.

Im pretty much in agreement with everything Rick said, and i think it would be best for the er33t clan to avoid accusations of map fixing by allowing players to vote. 


Sort it out.

[Playah]

:-/

[b00nlander]

ok there are several problems concerning an agreed over maplist:

- many players will usually play small maps with a lot of encounters... these are the maps that keep public servers full, unlike the bigger maps where it's more about strategy. The point is, though, that small maps can be fun for 2on2 or 3on3, while bigger maps include a lot of strategy. Of course this means that the teams will actually have to practice together. Might be tough for some players.
- eR33t picked the maps... yes, for now. Just wait until the first season is over and criticize the admins (including me) after that. Mappools might be changed, revised or whatever... Also, if you are a good team, it shouldnt matter for you on what map you play. Be better, beat the others. Period. And it's not like the mappool has been publicated a week before you have to play, you will have plenty of time for looking at the maps, find your own strategy, and actually play them.
- Personally, I dont agree with all of the maps either, and I dont like all of them, but I see the point that is being made by the mapchoice:  it forces teams to play as teams, and not as just 4 individuals. 
- larger maps might, maybe, lead to boring matches. As Dag has mentioned, if there is a 1on1 left on brainstorm, it can be boring, but actually, that is up to the teams! If both teams camp, even pbcup can get boring Really, it's up to the players to decide on their strategy, and I can say for my clan that we will not hide full rounds, as we want to see some action

[DrRickDaglessMD]

i dont think there is any question about practising the maplist, whatever incarnation gets decided upon. Im not going at accuse them of map fixing, because im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and the maps they have picked DO reflect the fairly reasonable criteria they have already laid out, but i don't however think its a good list. theres no way you can say 'fun maps' aren't worth anything league-quality play wise, because they are (though of course i dont mean ub_cliffs, that map makes me cry). ub_rooftop usually keeps people on servers, yet as far as i can see its way better suited to practised strategic 4 vs 4 play than say brainstorm or crimethink(bleugh).

you say its down to the teams not to make it boring and use bad gamesmanship, but think about who is entering? how many clans do you know that will resort to shady and lame tactics to win a HUGE map they have no chance of competing on open ground on? so say if that clan takes out the other, more worthy team by sheer better camping, how does that make for a good competition?

plus, why the hell should we wait till our fears are realised and the first season is poor to fix this? why not discuss it now and work something better out then we can all be happy a darn sight sooner?

- Dr Rick Dagless M.D

[Wow]

- many players will usually play small maps with a lot of encounters... these are the maps that keep public servers full, unlike the bigger maps where it's more about strategy.
- Also, if you are a good team, it shouldnt matter for you on what map you play. Be better, beat the others. Period.
- larger maps might, maybe, lead to boring matches. Really, it's up to the players to decide on their strategy, and I can say for my clan that we will not hide full rounds, as we want to see some action

Ok, I particularly want to highlight the second point. If er33t are a good team then why are they picking maps which give them an advantage? If it doesnt matter what maps we play then why cant we play fun driven ones, rather than boring expansive maps.

Strategy = Camp the flags, on every one of these maps, makes it boring for both teams, but its the only way lesser skilled players will be able to stand a chance.

I mean seriously, some of these maps are so so bad to play, i have to question what your motives are behind setting up this league; for other clans and fun? For the good of DP? Im seriously beginning to doubt that.

[b00nlander]

guest, whoever you might be (too much fear to reveal yourself?), first of all, nobody forces you to play in the league.  If a clan thinks they can participate and actually have fun, they will sign up, if not, they might not.  The league is an offer to clans, not anything forcing them.
Also, if you think you will be camped on, I guess you will have to develop a strategy to overcome the campers, dont you think?

[jitspoe]

ub_rooftop would probably be a good map.  I don't think your point about clearing out public servers is very valid, though.  Usually that's the sign of a map that offers good strategy.  All the Joe Newbies who rack up points spraying the only entrance to the base get frustrated because that strategy no longer works and the skilled players are running circles around them capturing flags.  They quickly become frustrated and quit the server.  Teamwork and strategy aren't that common on public servers, so naturally maps that require them are not popular.  Match and tournament environments are completely different, though.

That said, perhaps there should be fewer er33t-made maps in the list so there isn't as much bias.  Currently half the maps are made by er33t members.

[Wow]

guest, whoever you might be (too much fear to reveal yourself?), first of all, nobody forces you to play in the league.  If a clan thinks they can participate and actually have fun, they will sign up, if not, they might not.  The league is an offer to clans, not anything forcing them.
Also, if you think you will be camped on, I guess you will have to develop a strategy to overcome the campers, dont you think?

Surely youre trying to attract the maximum number of clans to participate? So this should be the greatest good for the greatest number, not the greatest good for er33t.

And i think camping will be the best strategy on these maps, as most of them have very narrow entrances to the flags, so there isnt much difference between these large ones and medium ones in terms of strategy. Only difference is it takes 10 minutes before you see anyone. Having smaller maps will encourage rushing and break up the monotony.

I think you should change this 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude if you hope people to take this league seriously.

[DrRickDaglessMD]

im not worried about being camped on, its just a question of removing the likelyhood and improving the standard of play by developing and maturing the maplist so that everyone playing has a great time, and the most people possible can join in and have fun. This is why your comments on 'dont like it, dont play' sort of attitudes wind me up  - why SHOULD some people be excluded just because someone elses clan is particularly adept at huge maps?

i have to agree with Jit about the server thing though, but only so far. Your theory is good, and Ive seen it to be true many times, but you cant forget that a map can just be crap, and no-one likes it but a few fetishists. Lets not confuse that with newbs not having the skill to become contenders on it.

I think anyone can see theres problems with the maplist, and thats cool because its tentative, not final, and we can discuss it. Im personally looking forward to seeing everglade's new version should be cool i hope. As it is, this whole thing feels biased to me, but i hope we can redress the imbalances so the whole community can play, not just those who happen to fancy the niche market currently on offer (and coincidentally have names beginning with E and ending in r33t... j/k).

- Dr Rick Dagless M.D

[digi]

You're all idiots. Yeah, we rigged the maplist to win.

Are you joking? We all know we can penetrate you newbies weather or not we pick the map.

Why dont you guys name some maps that would be better for 4v4. I know you'd like this to be an indune only tourney, but come on, there's enough of that excrement in pub. How about some maps people don't play now?..

I dont like some of the maps either personally, but I dont have a problem playing them. They're all good maps.

[digi]

- many players will usually play small maps with a lot of encounters... these are the maps that keep public servers full, unlike the bigger maps where it's more about strategy.
- Also, if you are a good team, it shouldnt matter for you on what map you play. Be better, beat the others. Period.
- larger maps might, maybe, lead to boring matches. Really, it's up to the players to decide on their strategy, and I can say for my clan that we will not hide full rounds, as we want to see some action

Ok, I particularly want to highlight the second point. If er33t are a good team then why are they picking maps which give them an advantage? If it doesnt matter what maps we play then why cant we play fun driven ones, rather than boring expansive maps.

Strategy = Camp the flags, on every one of these maps, makes it boring for both teams, but its the only way lesser skilled players will be able to stand a chance.

I mean seriously, some of these maps are so so bad to play, i have to question what your motives are behind setting up this league; for other clans and fun? For the good of DP? Im seriously beginning to doubt that.

No. YOUR strategy is camp the flags. Please tell me, if most map are 'camp the flag and win' why does eR33t NEVER camp and ALWAYS win? We NEVER EVER use camping as a winning strategy. It's more like a losing strategy in my opinion. I always tell clans the reason they're losing is because they're sitting on flag like idiots.


PS - Name some better maps. Please. I want a good laugh.


I'd just like to add most of eR33t don't know most of these maps. I know I dont. The reason for doing these maps is it's more even of a game. Everyone's playing maps they dont practice and don't really have strategies for. If you're worried that these maps were picked so eR33t could win, believe me, it would be ALOT worse if you picked maps that are regularly played.

Stop complaining.

[S8NSSON]

Let's clear things up a bit here...What you guys must realize here is PBCup is not run by eR33t.
It's run by XBain with help from DT.
I'm in eR33t and had no opinion on what maps were to be used.
And I don't think Blits, Bob, or digi were asked either.
I think XBain & DT made thier best logical choices to comfotably handle a 4vs4 teamwork competition, not a 4vs4 sprayfest.

I don't like every map on the list either, but i'll play anything.

I'm sure some of you would have liked to see Blitz_tm on the list, but that's NOT the kind of event PBCup is trying to promote.

[oddjob]

I think the maps are pretty good, becides the fact that like half of them like jits said are made by ppl in er33t. I think you could take some out and maybe use them in next season or something. I might be a bit off when I say this but what about maps like arctic3, which is a pretty sizeable map and has more than 1 way to go, cfire also another map that isnt played that has numerous ways to go and it is a decent size for a 4v4, and hellsurvivors definatly should have gotten some consideration because it is a map that definatly requires some teamwork. My last suggestion is pforest, another good sized map that is based on teamwork.

[digi]

pforest and hells are on there..

arctic3 is an awful map.. hence why no one really played it when it came out

and as for eR33t making most the maps, believe me, we don't know them any better then you (other then DT. lol). All of the DT maps I have no clue where to go, just like most other people. I've played them for maybe 35 seconds each.

[James]

Look at it this way... You can either lose on a small piece of excrement map, or you can lose on a good big map.

Oh yeah, also... It's a 4v4 league, not a 2v2.

[Blitz]

I had no influence on the maplist, and honestly -- don't like it all that much. A few more "shazam-like" maps would have been better, IMO.

Anyway, we'll live.

[Dirty_Taco]

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