Author Topic: Discussion - Demos  (Read 9729 times)

Cameron

  • Global Moderator
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2686
Discussion - Demos
« on: March 25, 2010, 11:45:57 PM »
I'm opening this thread to join in with the committees current thread about this subject.  Currently we don't see any good reason that someone should be deleting a demo.  We've all seen the hard drive space excuse before, but what we are looking for is valid reasons to why someone would delete a demo.  Even if you don't delete them and know a good reason why someone would, we'd like to hear your opinion.  Its getting a little annoying with the threads being made and then hearing that they stopped it recording as they entered for no good reason.

MOFO

  • 68 Carbine
  • Posts: 387
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 05:33:53 AM »
I'd delete my demos when im about to reformat my harddrive. because i don't need them

Cameron

  • Global Moderator
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2686
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 05:47:25 AM »
I'd delete my demos when im about to reformat my harddrive. because i don't need them
I'm talking more to the side of stopping the demo from recording when you enter a server, or deleting it right after you have finished playing.

Rocky

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 652
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 09:07:22 AM »
well i havent stopped my demos in a long time but like 3 years ago i always stopped demo when i joined server. dont really know why mayube because i just found out u can do it and just did it for a while. but ye dont really know why someone whos in the matching/mirc scene would stop their demos. everyone knows people might ask for it

pvtjimmy

  • Committee Member
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 09:24:40 AM »
everyone knows people might ask for it

this is exactly why we are asking for some inputs.

Our next question would be: Do you think it's reasonable to take action against someone for stopping/deleting demo's if they know people might ask for it? :)

Rocky

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 652
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 09:29:17 AM »
well dont think its that bad.. then ask jits to make it impossible to stop demos

joox

  • Stingray
  • Posts: 64
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 09:35:53 AM »
ask jits to make it impossible to stop demos

Yeah that sounds fair. Maybe there should be a input where demos can not be stopped.

Kyuuchi

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 1183
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 10:53:20 AM »
well dont think its that bad.. then ask jits to make it impossible to stop demos

Or make a server side setting for match servers disabling the command "stop" in the console. You can't completely remove the "stop" command because then when people want to record speedhackers, they will have the whole time they play in the pub server as they won't be able to stop.

Br55HiT

  • 68 Carbine
  • Posts: 351
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 11:20:42 AM »
I'm pretty sure the "stop" command is client side. 

If it would be possible, maybe have the server record demos and then upload them to web space somewhere automatically.  Then periodically delete old demos (maybe monthly) to keep the space down.

pvtjimmy

  • Committee Member
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 11:23:19 AM »
well dont think its that bad.. then ask jits to make it impossible to stop demos

Jitspoe is (of course) already asked to add this to a new build :)

Or make a server side setting for match servers disabling the command "stop" in the console. You can't completely remove the "stop" command because then when people want to record speedhackers, they will have the whole time they play in the pub server as they won't be able to stop.

You actually have a point there. However, leaving this setting open for serveradmins to change, this does not 100% cover up the problem. If the serveradmin "forgets" (not meant to accuse someone) to switch this setting on, it's hard to blame the player for this, i.e. a ban would not be justified in my eyes.

*** edit ***
If it would be possible, maybe have the server record demos and then upload them to web space somewhere automatically.  Then periodically delete old demos (maybe monthly) to keep the space down.

I think this is very hard to realize. This will not only cause a lot more scripting, it will also affect the required server capacity. For example: OTB has 3 match servers up at the moment, if the servers has to keep a demo of every player, for approx. 5 matches per day, per server, this causes a database of 6 (3v3) x 5 (matches) x 3 (servers) x 30 (days) x 1mb = 2,7 gb monthyl! I don't think any serveradmin will be willing to take the extra charges for this increase of data traffic....

abnormal

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 649
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 11:43:16 AM »
When the "stop" command is able to use, why shouldn't the player use it?
Even when there's unabled to stop the demo, noone says that you have to send it to anyone..

What about this? - The server-side demos would be on the server just for (example) 1 week and then it would be auto-deleted. Simply if there's something suspicious in a match you'll have enough time to download the demo.

blaa

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 1218
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 12:17:00 PM »
 I think hoping jitspoe to solve this is not very realistic.

You guys should think about the times when there wasn't autorecord. You had to capture hackers by chasing them yourself. You died, you found the suspicious player and chased.

Not saying stopping demos is something a normal person would do (come on, what the intercourse??? there is still gonna be the .dm2 file), but saying that not receiving the original demo is not the end of the world.

And yeah, I think the committee should reach a decision in this case and make it clear, and I hope the decision will be that not sharing your demo = bannable offense.

pvtjimmy

  • Committee Member
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 12:45:05 PM »
Even when there's unabled to stop the demo, noone says that you have to send it to anyone..

That's what we are busy on, ;)

XtremeBain

  • Developer
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 02:06:21 PM »
I thought the purpose of the committee was just for voting on ban times of caught cheaters and dealing with abuse issues that are not outlined in the rules. When did these members become qualified to examine demos and spot wallhackers? I doubt that jitspoe is giving committee members wallhacks to replay these demos in, and then voting on whether they think the player is hacking or not. I wouldn't want to see anyone give their demo to these "decision makers" only to banned because a few random people think they hack.

I made the autorecord as a quick workaround to make sure all PBCup players were recording demos (because typing record at the start of each map is too hard for most people). I didn't intend on it being included in all servers, or enabled by default. It's the type of setting that should be client-side so if you want to keep demos of all your games or a screenshot at the end of every map, you could enable it. No point in filling up your hard drive with hundreds of pointless scrim or pub demos.

If you're going to start relying on demos to catch cheaters, you should be using server demos anyway. If autorecord was made for server demos, and Multi-View Demo support was added you could download demo of entire match from dedicated server, load it in your pb2 client and be able to switch between all players in the match. I'm sure the players would appreciate this too, since they could rewatch demos from the POV of teammates or enemies, rather than being locked in to a single POV.

The time might be better spent beefing up the cheat detection system.

Leriq

  • PGP
  • Posts: 45
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 02:19:20 PM »
Xbain couldn't have said it much better.

On another note I know dystro stops ALL his demos when he enters a server. Occasionally you'll catch him typing "stpo" or some other command. Another reason for not recording demos is the fact they take up a lot of hard drive space. I have slightly less than 8 gigs of demos. After seeing this thread im tempted to delete them all.

Dirty_Taco

  • Map Committee
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 1630
_
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 03:05:37 PM »
Post removed
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 11:45:28 PM by Dirty_Taco »

Cameron

  • Global Moderator
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2686
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 03:47:03 PM »
I have slightly less than 8 gigs of demos. After seeing this thread im tempted to delete them all.
Doesn't look like anyone wants them, so go ahead.  This is about the ones that get stopped and may get requested after the match. 
The time might be better spent beefing up the cheat detection system.
I do agree with you there.  It would permanently fix the problem, but would take time to implement.  We just want a clear cut rule for the time being.

pvtjimmy

  • Committee Member
  • Autococker
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 04:23:27 PM »
XtremeBain, I think there's some misunderstanding here.

The commitee is not installed to spot/catch hackers, but to make sure people can have a good time playing this game. To make sure people can enjoy this game, you have to filter out the rotten parts of it. This can be done by banning the cheating players and making clear rules for everyone.

As you are one of the developpers of this game, I trust you are aware of the limited possibilities of catching hackers. The history proved one of the most successful ways to spot hackers is to check their demo's, to see their "playing behaviour" and spot (potential) suspicious things. In order to give everybody in this community the opportunity to do this, we are thinking of setting up some standards for demo's. We have been discussing this in the commitee sector and the most realistic idea we had so far is to oblige all players (mainly the active matching scene) demo's of their matches, so they can be provided to whoever wants to check them.
I don't know if you have been checking the forums lately, but there are tons of threads for people asking for demo's. Apparently there are enough players who give reason for suspection. Some of these threads can never be answered, as the player refuses to upload his demo, or simply because he didn't have it. Since you will probably not get caught for hacking when you don't provide your demo, the most common excuses we see are "I deleted it" or "I stopped my demo's at the beginning. This blocks the process of spotting hackers, causing that they will have no ban. For your info: the players are asking for these demo's, in most cases the commitee has no interest in these case until there are clear evidences!
In order to make sure all demo's will be available, there has to be set up a new rule, either clientsided, or serversided. Since serversided would cause lot more extra scripting and data transfer, we tought that making the solution clientsided, we'd keep it "easy" by obliging all players to keep their demo's for a limited time of 7 days. This will give everybody enough time to request the demo if necessary and will not take unnecessary much harddrive space (with the current activity in the game, we calculated this should be max. 50 mb). Any computer that can be used to play this game should be able to handle this.

I hope all you guys understand this thread is in no way meant to "extend" the influence (or for doomthinkers; power) of the commitee. We are just trying to help the people who are requesting a certain demo to actually get it. In order to achieve this, we have tried to use our brains (which might of course be the reason of the failure ;)) and have tought of a possibility to tackle this problem. If anyone else has a better idea, his/her inputs are very welcome!

@anti-cheat system in general; The reason we have decided to ask the community for their views on this "solution", is because taking "technical measures" (like programming additional software) will probably take a lot of time. Furthermore this system will get outdated quickly, as certain players will keep finding ways to avoid the cheat detection systems. Again, any offers for help are very welcome!

I thought the purpose of the committee was just for voting on ban times of caught cheaters and dealing with abuse issues that are not outlined in the rules. When did these members become qualified to examine demos and spot wallhackers? I doubt that jitspoe is giving committee members wallhacks to replay these demos in, and then voting on whether they think the player is hacking or not. I wouldn't want to see anyone give their demo to these "decision makers" only to banned because a few random people think they hack.

I don't know where you got this idea from. Like I stated above, it's not our main activity to check demo's and spot hackers.
Last but not least; why are you suggesting Jitspoe would have given the commitee members hacks to check demo's for the use of it? The 2 cases that showed up lately were produced by someone from the community that can not be related to the communitee. Although I consider them as useful, I can not imagine the creation of these videos was request by the commitee.
I think our main goal should always be cleaning up the cheaters, not to actually become one.

atmays

  • Autococker
  • Posts: 645
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 06:40:11 PM »
I delete my demos and If someone ask for them I basically tell them no. I feel that I dont have to prove anything to anyone, I trust jitspoe detection it seems like it has been workin of late. If I get banned for not uploading a demo then, aye, so be it.

Leriq

  • PGP
  • Posts: 45
Re: Discussion - Demos
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 06:41:25 PM »
Maybe we need to question what the point of getting someone's demo is. Recently, how many people have been banned for WALLHACKS by looking at their demo? I am saying recently...

Therefore, what is the point of getting someone's demo?