zoogooz vid...

[MeRL]

If you can't handle being second rate give up the game.

I'm not sure if you realized this after you clicked "post" but this entire thing didn't start with us not being able to handle being second rate. as you put it. The problem occured when the "top rate" team lost fair and square. APPARENTLY that's not supposed to happen, ever. If it does, my lord I guess the winners cheated.
I've never denied that er33t has skill. They have amazing dp skill and teamwork but unfortunately MOST of their players have the maturity of a 12 year old. THAT'S where the issue is, otherwise none of this would have ever happened.

[Gibb]

S8N, if there has been anyone I have come close to attacking during this entire mess, it has been Pierce, never you.  I believe I have made only 2 comments to you that voiced my displeasure with this entire, what I have been calling, "Smear Campaign."

One was when you asked if I would record my own version of the song you used in the demo.  I responded w/, "I wont contribute to your smear campaign, but I would record The Beatles song "Cry Baby Cry." 

This was said mainly a joke as I had no intention to record either, just make a smart-assed comment.

Secondly, I had voiced my opinion a few times in regards to how making this video could easily lead to biased results 
** A member of the accusing clan is the person behind the production. 
**They can select whatever sections of the demo they want to show.
**Then they can end the video by making whatever comments they want 

I believe these are all valid points, you can accomplish a lot through crafty video editing and only taking 2 minutes from a 15+ minute demo.

However, all of these comments were said prior to the video being released.  After I watched the video, I felt you were fair with its presentation.  I thought you showed a number of scenes that were easily explainable as to how zoogooz was not wallhacking, and because of that, I could really care less about it.

As for the "Oh Snap" pictures, I felt that it was very ironic we have 'cheating' show up in a video trying to oust a cheater.  What if CRASH made a post similar to S8N's after his 'highlight' film was released that depicted altered skins?  He did it 'just to make the video easier to watch' or 'it was only for the video, i don't use them anymore.'  I'm pretty sure everyone would have reacted the same way by wanting him burned at the stake.

S8N I have no problem with you, never have.  I enjoyed what you had to say when you were in Rust, and I am sure many people enjoy your contributions to the DP Community.  However, all I believe Herron was trying to say, and he can correct me if i'm wrong, but if we're really banning people for a month for altered skins, there should not be a double standard or a free pass for anybody.  No matter who you are.

(On a side note: I found your comment about if we really thought you cheat, check your scores for when er33t beat us on Darkages.  I don't have any screens, but im assuming you weren't close to being the kills leader on your team.  Thats pretty funny since if you look at zoogooz scores at the end of the demo er33t has been saying demonstrated wallhacking, he indeed has the LOWEST score of all of his teammates.)

[Herron]

For me, I think it all comes down to this:

The ZoogoZ video is inconclusive, jitspoe took the words out of my mouth for explaining all of Zoo's actions, so I won't reiterate the reasons I feel the video is not solid proof that he is wallhacking.

S8NSSON's use of edited paintballs is explained away by him using them at work, and he has shown that he made the video while at work as opposed to from home, and therefore there is no proof he uses it at home, so like the ZoogooZ situation itself, it is inconclusive.

Honestly I think it's all just water under the bridge at this point, so I propose we drop both issues and keep making our demos and videos and base our future (hack)usations on more definitive facts.  More cheat protection for both wallhacks and game editing are needed, but I do agree that in the meantime diligence of the community is the best course of action, as long as it can remain civil.  Unfortunately this whole thing didn't quite maintain that throughout the whole process, but there were successes on both sides at bringing the topic back on track, and I give thumbs up to everyone on that.

So until the next demo...

Respectfully yours,
Herron

[S8NSSON]

Agreed and amen.
I really tried to tell everyone that regardless of my position (being in the accusing clan) I would make a fair video and would in no way attempt to manipulate any parts of it in favor either way. I hope I did this. My interest is in catching cheaters, not in hanging potentially innocent people. If there is a shadow of a doubt, however large or small, you must side with the defendant. And that's what has happened in this case (or at least I think it has...i don't guess he's banned or anything, as he shouldn't be).

Oh, and I think I told you this already Gibb, but my suggestion to do that song was purely because I thought it would fit your voice (even doing multitrack backups yourself) having heard your material, that's all.

Anybody demo a potential cheater? Send it my way.
Please don't even comment in the game that you are doing so. Just go observer and quietly record the suspect in thier first person view.

Peace

[lekky]

I guarantee more people have modified skins than don't in this community right now

is this true? 

[KnacK]

<soapbox>
I have NEVER modified or used modified ANYTHING in this mod.

(unless you count the female skins used years ago....)

</soapbox>

[jitspoe]

I doubt that many people are using modified skins.  A few, maybe, but not the majority.

[Dirty_Taco]

Man you guys are hilarious. You 'authorities on the subject.' None of you have addressed the main issue i brought up. Jitspoe started to in another post, but didn't finish. I'm not willing to just drop the issue when a handful of people I'm supposed to respect, but don't anymore, start advancing bogus arguments for the contrary.

"The problem occured when the "top rate" team lost fair and square." Actually we didn't lose fair and square. One of your members was wallhacking. However, we still accepted the loss because we still should have won, even if all four of you were wallhacking.

Maybe i'll just start believing Zoogooz is omniscient and knows where we are at all times instead of thinking he wallhacks.

[Gibb]

The video doesn't even include the most obvious clip, where he isn't spraying in the middle while two of our guys are charging him. No one has really refuted my point about that in the other thread...

Assuming this is the thing you want everyone to talk about, give us a timeframe when this happens.  Otherwise you can't expect everyone to watch a 15 minute demo and look for a point where zoogooz is in the middle and 2 guys are rushing him.  It's too vague.

Once we know where to focus our attention, someone might address your point, but keep in mind this is not the 'address DT's points or you will forfeit all validity in your statements' thread.  This is a thread about hacking, and I believe all posts that address the subject of hacking are fair game. 

You 'authorities on the subject.' None of you have addressed the main issue i brought up. Jitspoe started to in another post, but didn't finish. I'm not willing to just drop the issue when a handful of people I'm supposed to respect, but don't anymore, start advancing bogus arguments for the contrary.

If that was in reference to either Herron or I, we are clearly not 'authorities on the subject' of hacking, nor have we claimed to be.  Just like everyone else in this thread, we are just giving opinions of what we see.  The only person that has claimed to be an authority on hacking is yourself Pierce, which may be valid because you have said you have the most experience in looking into past cheaters.   

As for the issue of respect, you don't have to respect us, nor do we expect to be respected by everyone. Doing so would be extremely absurd.  However, I don't see why you would suddenly lose respect for people who simply disagrees with how you handle a subject.  In life, not everyone will agree with you, nor will people always think along the same lines as you, that doesn't mean they don't respect you.

If the bogus arguments comment was also directed to us in regards to S8N using edited paint splats, please.   They are apart of the zoogooz video, we noticed they were edited, and we brought that forward inside the zoogooz video thread.  No they don't pertain to zoogooz specfically, but it was something that was noticed, and we felt it would be appropriate to discuss.  It was, all is now fine.

[Dirty_Taco]

Bogus arguments refers to most of what people have said about zoogooz not wallhacking. Either way, it may be the case that we don't have enough evidence to prove that zoogooz wallhacks simply because a person wasn't demoing him the entire time. However, none of you have a good enough argument to prove the contrary. Which means we'll have to leave it as an enigma, and hope he doesn't do it in the future.

The respect issue has to do with how various people handled the situation. Jitspoe seems to me the only person that opposed me that handled it correctly. I posted a lengthy rigorous argument.. the main thesis of which most people ignored. Jitspoe posted his take on the demo, although, without responding to some of my further worries i brought up. Nowhere did he try and demean me or my counterparts as you, herron, shreds, and all of xb did instead of just posting a new argument, or refuting my points. If you had done the latter than i'd still respect you.

[jitspoe]

I don't think one short segment of play would be sufficient to convict anybody.  I don't recall from the demo very well what happened, but I think your argument basically boiled down to, "He wasn't spraying when I think he should have been."  Not to attack you, but just because you think the game should be played a certain way doesn't necessarily mean everybody will play it that way.  Also, just because a certain action is more logical in a given scenario doesn't mean the person will take it.  We're human, after all.

[oddjob]

None of this arugment would even be happening if you didnt bring it out public RIGHT after the match. Had you waited, like you did with clipz, until s8n had finished the video, these flame fests wouldnt be so bad as they have gotten.

As for this comment:
"The problem occured when the "top rate" team lost fair and square." Actually we didn't lose fair and square. One of your members was wallhacking. However, we still accepted the loss because we still should have won, even if all four of you were wallhacking.

The video is not conclusive, so there is no way to say if he was hacking or not, it may have not been fair and square if he had, but its alot closer to fair and square than you think. You should have beaten us regardless(like you said)  if zoogooz was hacking or not, you had some communications lapses. It happens, and when that does happen good teams take advantage of the situation like we did.

[Shreds]

Taco, whats points are you making here? I watched the video of accusing moments and didnt see anything that confirmed cheating. Was I supposed to say what jit said a few posts above mine?

As for demeaning you, well... If you would stop being a brat we wouldnt have to treat you like a child. My interest in the zoogooz thing was heightened when you called us.. what was it? pretty pathetic and that we played without honor. All this because you guys lost 1 round in pbcup when we played defensive. Maybe you should watch the demos again too because we didnt just camp the entire time as you think, but thats another story.

My only attack on you in relation to this topic was laughing and a analogy of WMDs, which may not have been good but other people got the joke.

I stated my opinion on this subject, that there is no proof zoogooz cheated.
I'll leave the s8n's texture edits dead as it should be.
I wish you would either stop calling zoogooz a cheater and dragging his name through the mud (doing worse to yours in the process)[though.. what do names matter in this game anyways. -->GAME<--]. If you dont stop, get fraps and make a demo that does prove him guilty beyond a doubt. zoogooz has more evidence in his favor then a black glove thats too small.

[Dirty_Taco]

Shreds: I'm not talking about the video. The main thesis of my argument doesnt concern the video becuase s8n didn't capture that part. It concerns the demo. To read my argument you'd have to read the other thread. To read jitspoe's response you'd have to read the other thread. To read my further replies you'd have to read the other thread.

Theres a difference between playing defensive and camping behind objects, waiting for people to run by, then shooting them in the back. Thats just cheap, and in mind dishonorable. Almost as dishonorable as zoogooz wallhacking. I wasn't totally surprised though, you did recruit hobo. Zoogooz doesn't have more evidence in his favor, he just has more old school, non-eR33t players trying to protect him.

[jitspoe]

If DT fought in the revolutionary war, he most definitely would be on the British side.  As I said in my previous post, just because you think the game should be played a certain way doesn't mean everybody plays it that way.  There's more to the game than just raw skill.  You have a lot of skill, and thus favor strategies/maps that favor skill.  Just because people use strategy to avoid direct confrontation (which favors the more skilled player) does not make their tactics cheap.  Personally I think if you rush blindly into a base, then you deserve to be shot in the back.  This, however, is a topic for a different discussion.

On topic, if you really wish to convince us, then you should put together your own video.  The burden of proof is on you.  I feel I've wasted far too much time on this already and don't want to spend more time pouring over some demo when my time could be better spent elsewhere.

[Dirty_Taco]

Why would i do that? No matter what i do now, especially with the given demo, you aren't going to globally ban him and I know it.

It does make them cheap. Although it's fair, the camping team has a big advantage. Skilled players never rush blindly into a base in a serious match. They're very cautious. However, cautious players don't jump around every corner spraying behind them to see if people are being cheap. Theres also a difference between one person sitting behind something waiting for you to run by and three people doing it. At least MeMi faced us when they camped all 4 players against our 3 (basically 2).

The reason the WMD analogy doesn't work is because half of it is false. Jitspoe's might work, except that I win and the British lost.

[MeRL]

Theres a difference between playing defensive and camping behind objects, waiting for people to run by, then shooting them in the back. Thats just cheap, and in mind dishonorable.

So did you lose that map..the one where they were being "cheap" and "dishonorable" <-- i'm sorry i didn't notice we needed to honor our ancestor's. my bad.
My guess is that you lost that map, which explains the entire part where you complained..again.

I forget which er33t member posted something in this thread about xb refusing to match you guys from now on. We'll let me explain something to you,
1. I've played this game for far too long to let immaturity ruin my fun.
2. IF you think i'm afraid of chalking up a loss, think again. Tell you what, challenge my team to a match. I'll accept and then we won't show but instead we'll be playing a different team, a team who WON'T cause a fiasco after every kill. and when i'm done i'll add at least 1 loss for not showing up to yours.
So you see, it's got nothing to do with record or "honor" or that crap. It's all about being able to enjoy a game for free without the constant complaining.
Therefore i've instructed my clan to ignore any match challenges coming from anyone within team er33t unless we're forced to (pbcup).
One last thing, somewhere in this thread I read something where Digi listed off clans that were refusing to match er33t. Have you thought about possible reason's why that might be? Let me name a few:
1 - All those clans are afraid to lose - possible but very unlikely
2 - All those clans are afraid to be caught hacking - possibility but again, very unlikely
3 - All those clans are just fed up with the lack of maturity within er33t - VERY good possibility.
I'll let you make the call.

[Dirty_Taco]

I'm going to go with choice 1 for xb and the rest of the clans.

SECURED

[Hobo]

DT,
  I had no desire to get involved with this thread.  I did however enjoy following the discussion.  But, since you decided to use me as "Rust's backshooter" I've decided to give my 2 cents worth.
  What Jitspoe is saying about how people play the game and how your way may not be everyone's way is exactly what I've told you in the past.  If you think it's pathetic or cheap then I won't bother arguing with you.  but I will give you my opinion about it. Camping, backshooting, whatever also takes skill in my opinion.  Since I  was asked to join Rust I've tried to adjust to playing with a team. I'll be the first to admit it's way different than the pubs.  I try to follow directions given to me by the members.  I've been asked to play more than one style of defense and more than just one style of offense. So, since you have no idea how I actually play everytime, you shouldn't be so biased to my style of play. I actually rush plenty, it just depends on the map and who's playing, just like it should be for everyone. I wasn't even playing that round which you lost and I'm surprised that you think my infuence is so great.  I truly believe camping/backshooting will be a part of this game untill the end, whether you approve or not.
  Just so you know, I thought PBCup was helping your attitude to the general pball scene.

  As far as the demo:
  Spraying all the time simply gives away your position. In the instance you're talking about, Zoo seemed to be waiting to see which way someone would be approaching his position.  Spraying would give his position and location away.

  Why do you use a wallhack during your matches?  You keep saying "He knows exactly where you're at" "He's looking right at you"
  Actually I don't think you use a wallhack during a match, but comments like that would encourage me to think so.

  Lastly I don't care... you should care less... try to have some fun.

[loial21]

I'm going to go with choice 1 for xb and the rest of the clans.

So you belive that acting immature ruins fun? Man I thought you were e3rrt. Sorry.