Author Topic: spcup_kingdom beta 3  (Read 24606 times)

JMR

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2014, 01:14:02 PM »
Experiment with light entities, change sun angle by 1 degree, move brush(es) slightly, use phong shading, and if none of those things work, give up.

At this point I agree, just work on your next spcup map until sufficient feedback appears on this thread to make beta 4 have enough changes.

Experiment with light entities [done]
change sun angle by 1 degree [done]
move brush(es) slightly [done]
use phong shading [done]
and if none of those things work, give up. [doing] haha :)

LaZeRs

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 07:48:17 PM »
I checked out beta 3 for a bit, and the only problems I saw were these. (I don't know if they were in the previous betas, but here's my feedback)



First Image

What does it do? Nothing, IMO. It's hard to get to, barely noticeable, and hardly (if all) useful.
Is it easy to access? No, it's not. Unless you spawned there, it's very hard to get to.
Is it noticeable? No, it really isn't. Although there's an autococker in it, nobody would notice it.



Second Image

What does it do? From midhigh to the base part it's a little obstacle to jump over, but the ladder isn't really in a good spot for climbing.
Is it easy to access? I guess, it's kind of narrow to go through though. Maybe make the path wider or just remove the ladder from there.
Is it noticeable? Sort of, but it's not really useful. You can just use the other newer paths you created to get to midhigh instead of that ladder. You can easily get shot while climbing, and again, the path is a little narrow, which makes it less noticeable than it could be.



That's my feedback for beta 3.

JMR

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2014, 05:12:10 PM »
Image 1:
May I remind you, that this is a tournament map. Myers suggested me to add a bunker there with autococker, as it would fit in nicely with the jumps and flow. It's relatively easy to get up there and provides a nice defence spot.

Image 2:
This ladder, from actually playing the map, is used quite a lot and I have no trouble going up it.

BASEBALLDUDE

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2014, 06:55:18 PM »
LaZeRs, do you not have the HR4 textures? I still can't understand how people maintain their saneness playing this game with such low-res textures.

jitspoe

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2014, 09:38:46 PM »
Judging: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26586.msg243262#msg243262

It looks like several of the issues I had with the beta I judged have been resolved with the latest beta.  It also looks like the size worked out better than I anticipated when there were a lot of players, so I might revise some of that scoring.

In my personal opinion, the second flag detracts from the gameplay.  The first one is in a nice accessible location, with many angles of attack.  Fun to try to jump by a group of defenders and go for the grab... then you have to go for the second one, which is in a much more susceptible location for being eliminated.  You're pretty much obligated to get it, too.  If you don't, on a map this size, a cap trade will put you way behind.  Instead of adding another possible grab to make defense harder, it gives them two opportunities to defend, making it easier.  It's not a requirement that every new competitive pb2 map have 4 flags. :)

JMR

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2014, 09:28:14 AM »
Judging: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26586.msg243262#msg243262

It looks like several of the issues I had with the beta I judged have been resolved with the latest beta.  It also looks like the size worked out better than I anticipated when there were a lot of players, so I might revise some of that scoring.

In my personal opinion, the second flag detracts from the gameplay.  The first one is in a nice accessible location, with many angles of attack.  Fun to try to jump by a group of defenders and go for the grab... then you have to go for the second one, which is in a much more susceptible location for being eliminated.  You're pretty much obligated to get it, too.  If you don't, on a map this size, a cap trade will put you way behind.  Instead of adding another possible grab to make defense harder, it gives them two opportunities to defend, making it easier.  It's not a requirement that every new competitive pb2 map have 4 flags. :)

Thanks for your suggestions :)
I mainly built this map for tournaments though, myers provided excellent feedback relating to the position of flags. The map, flag wise plays quite a bit like pforest now. Which is good for competitive gameplay.

I highly agree, there are way too many 4 flag maps and my next one may be a 2 flag one :) It's easier to make a good, tournament-worthy 4 flag map than it is to make a tournament-worthy 2 flag map imo.

I agree with you that 2nd flag is not that obvious, I think I'll make it easier to spot flag to and maybe provide some arrows as directions to 2nd flag.

jitspoe

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2014, 10:48:42 AM »
I think the 2nd flag feels pointless in pforest as well.  If everybody always grabs both, what's the point?  It just slows down the grab a bit, because you have to spend the little bit of extra time to grab 2 flags instead of 1.  Yeah, you get more points for killing with the flags, but overall, the 2 flags per base just feels like a bit of a forced fad.  "This popular competitive map had 2 flags per base, so 2 flags per base must be a requirement for a good competitive map."

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  I'd be curious to see how it played with 1 flag, but it's your map.

JMR

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2014, 12:14:55 PM »
The way you're describing how 2 flags in maps like Pforest work is assuming it's a 1on1, where both opponents are grabbing simultaneously. This would imply, you grab one, and have the grab the 2nd, which purely acts as a slightly longer time for the same outcome - a flag fight. However, that's not the purpose of a 2nd flag in most maps.

But the purpose of 2 flags is primarily for everything other than 1on1. It forces much more teamwork. If you're 1v3, without teamwork, you can sometimes succeed camping, but this is rare in a map like pforest as even with recon many people get grabbed on. It provides 2 paths into base, both of which have means of grabbing both flags. Therefore, it forces a team to setup to get more benefit.

The more coordination, the more reward. If you have really good teamwork, you can grab both flags while someone is camping. This gives the team with better teamwork a bigger reward.

It's an act of increasing teamwork, making recon more crucial, and making camping more of a risk. This doesn't work the same in the average 1 flag map. So the flag placements on Pforest are not random and unnecessary, they are what provide the gameplay, which there's more that could be explained but you can't possibly know all the benefits whilst not playing competitively.


Ace

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2014, 12:55:27 PM »
Arguing with the maker of the game on 2 flag gameplay... eh. I don't mind a second flag, but the placement in your map is pretty questionable. You float around in the air, and you would have to be completely out of site in order to grab.

jitspoe

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2014, 02:26:00 PM »
Arguing with the developer isn't a bad thing.  Lots of people have played the game more than I have and may know what makes better gameplay.  I'm merely expressing my own opinion here.

It just bugs me a bit that so many mappers these days are just throwing in 2 flags in each base instead of designing a really good base layout and flag position.  I think instead of starting off with the assumption that you need 2 flags and shifting their positions around in each beta, you might be better off focusing on making a really good base layout for one flag.

Having 2 flags means potentially twice as many "cheap camping" locations you have to deal with.  The situation I was referring to wasn't for 1v1's.  It's for the situations where you're going for a grab in a base that has defense, and the enemy team is doing the same thing.  If you grab 1 flag unscathed, you're pretty much obligated to grab the second one as well, otherwise you risk cap trading with an enemy that has 2 flags and losing points (relatively).

I also disagree with the point about 2 flags requiring more teamwork.  With 1 flag, you have to time an attack very carefully to get the grab, usually involving a decoy sacrifice.  With multiple flags, multiple players can just speed jump in whenever and likely grab.  It doesn't require as much coordination.  I've seen less skilled teams with better teamwork beat more skilled players on single flag maps.  That doesn't typically happen on multiflag maps where individual skills seem to be the primary factor in winning.

ViciouZ

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2014, 04:55:01 PM »
My Judging:
Rick's template

Detail - 90/100

Brushes in the map that are primarly there to make it look nice.

   Relevance - How does the detail compare to the rest of the map? Is it relevant to the theme and style? Or is it random? (20/25)
All seems to fit, because the map has a nice eclectic theme to start with. Although, the paving slabs giving way to grass effect doesn't look good when the brushes don't align with the stone slab textures.

   Appearance - Is it visually appealing? Does it make you want to play the map? (25/25)
Yes, very much so.

   Suitability to Gameplay - How does the detail collaborate with gameplay? (20/25)
None of it appeared to get in the way, apart from larger detail which was clearly designed for cover.

   Quantity - Is there too little? Is there too much? Or is there enough? (25/25)
There's always something nice to look at in this map no matter where you are


Jumps - 85/100

Judge based on the jumps of the map

   Quantity - Are they too rare? Are they too common? (20/25)
With a few exceptions in the periphery, there seems to be an abundance of jumps.

   Suitability - Are the jumps randomly placed? Are they needed? Do they work well? (20/25)
Most of the jumps seem to have clear goals and the terrain jumps are designed with speed in mind.

   Relevance - Are the jumps relevantly placed? Are they Leading to places of importance? (20/25)
See above.

   Range - Are there jumps for people of all skill level? Some easy jumps and some hard? (25/25)
There were a couple of speculative jumps I couldn't manage, as well as the usual ramp jumps etc. So I'd say the best spread of the maps in the competition, just by virtue of including some harder jumps.

Gameplay - 75/100

Judge based on how fun the map is to play

   Flow - Do you get stuck anywhere? Can you get from place to place without any fuss? (14/15)
Flows remarkably well, can jump around for ages without hitting the walls. Would be sick with warsow movement. Had to adjust for battlements a couple of times.

   Items (placed) - Are the items placed in convienient locations? Will they affect gameplay negatively? Are they present at all? (6/10)
Steadfastly unadventurous with these, just a couple automags and fairly well spaced ammo.

   Spawns - Will you get spawn killed? Are the spawns varied enough? Are they fair? (10/10)
A few locations. May need a couple more actual spawn points for pubs, but seems foolproof for matches.

   Lines - Do the lines look interesting? Are they used for the sake of being used or do they serve a purpose? Is the Visibility of the map good? Can players see other players at certain points only? And does this help or hinder gameplay?(10/15)
Good balancing of sight lines with open areas for movement. No real easy base-to-base lines but the mid certainly would heat up a bit with a few players.

   Capping + Grabbing - Is it too easy/ hard to grab? Is it too easy/ hard to cap? Are the flags worth too much or too little? (20/30)
The two flags appear separated at first but kind of encourage a looping path where you grab the 2nd on the way out from the first. Consider moving the second flag further towards the other side of the base?

   Layout - Are all the paths equal in terms of speed? Is the scale of the map good? (15/20)
I like the ambitious size, especially given the time it was completed in and detail throughout. Was hard to get a timer on the paths but they didn't seem vastly different.

Technical Skill - 25/50

The quality of the mapping techniques used.


   R_Speeds - Are the r_speeds low enough for play? Has the mapper done a good job at keeping them low? Will it be laggy for some players? (8/25)
Here's where some of the map falls down - aside from a few tunnels, it is rare to see wpoly under 1000. This rises to 3000 in the base, and there is also some water which could make the base unplayable for slow PCs with reflective water on. Consider using custom textures instead of brushwork, on the portcullis for example, and revise your ladder design, for a start.

   Alignments - Are the textures aligned correctly? (5/10)
Just because you make certain things out of chipboard textures doesn't mean they'll look good without aligning the textures :) Also, your torches look messed up in the bases?

   Brush + Grid work - Is there technique good? Is the grid size appropriate? Have they used clipping planes (if they are relevant)? etc. (12/15)
Mostly good, as mentioned the ladder design is somewhat silly. Don't like the odd ledge-type brushes above the cutout on the left path out of base just before mid. Nice terrain and integration of the different styles though.

Innovation - 25/50

Is this map NEW and EXCITING or have we seen it before?

   Innovation/ Unique - Have we seen this all before? Or were you impressed by the fresh look of the map? (25/50) 
Has a lot of influences evident, but seems fairly new simply in the variety of environments used. Individual sections of the map seem derivative but overall it is greater than the sum of its parts.


Overall - 300/400

LaZeRs

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2014, 11:15:39 PM »
Hey JMR, will this ever be finished?

BASEBALLDUDE

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2014, 02:33:33 PM »
Just played this map, and gameplay is amazingly good. If you find a way to fix up those light issues, and change the ugly light tan texture you use for the ramp planks and the thing on the cannon, this should go final.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, but the cannon, if used properly, can shoot the player. If you walk up and over it, you get shot, deflected up, and land on the flag 2 bridge. Also, if you face the cannon, crouch left, and crawl to the side of it, it will launch you under the gate. If you hold right while doing this, you'll dodge the barrel and fly to the opposite side of the base.

jitspoe

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2014, 04:54:41 PM »
To be honest, I think the cannons should just be removed. They're buggy and don't look very good.

By the way, the newest qbsp fix here should help with some of the issues in the map: http://dplogin.com/forums/index.php?topic=26664.0

jitspoe

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Re: spcup_kingdom beta 3
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2020, 02:09:38 AM »
Played this during Social (distancing) Saturday, and I've kind of changed my mind about the cannons.  They're kind of nice as an accessible way to grab the 2nd flag.  I'd just work on making them more consistent and maybe just as a designed jump pad to the flag, rather than having that be a weird side effect.