Character Start...need CONSTRUCTIVE Critisism

[S8NSSON]

http://www.logictechnologies.com/keith/stuff/pbchar/

[jitspoe]

I think we're going to have to up the polygon count.  1200 doesn't go as far as i hoped it would, although there are probably things that can be done to improve the usage of the polygons, this will have to be the medium quality model.

I guess I'll start at the top and work my way down.

The mask:  This is a JT proflex mask: http://www.thepaintballstore.com/product598.html

Actually, I'll just paste it on the mesh image and do some highlights:


yellow-green: These edges don't exist, but need to.
green: This edge needs to be moved to meet up with the yellow-green edges.
red: This edge is basically straight, so you can save some polygons there.  Also, the area near the back of the jaw needs to be dropped down a bit.
cyan: The visor needs to stick out a lot more.
yellow: This part seems to be missing completely.
magenta: this all needs to be dropped way down and reshaped.  Also, it's way too thick.
blue: This edge needs to be vertical.  Also about half the length.
purple: This also needs to be vertical - all the way around the transparent part of the mask.  We'll also need to have a little bit of a face behind that part of the mask, as it will be transparent.

Shirt area looks pretty good.  The shoulders might need more polygons to animate properly, but I can't tell without a wireframe shot.  Also, I'd move the sag up a little and make it a little less uniform.  Actually, the whole waist may need to be moved up a little.  With more polygons, I'd like to see a lot of wrinkles around the wrist area.

Hands will definitely need more polygons, especially in the area between the index finger and thumb.  The thumb also appears to be too short.

Legs... they look really bland.  I think a lot more shaping needs to go on here.

Shoes: I'd make the toes thicker (vertically) and more boot-ish.

Overall: The posture is really stiff, and from the side view (http://www.logictechnologies.com/keith/stuff/pbchar/4.jpg) he almost looks like one solid post.  Sure, that will change a bit when we get the animations in, but the human body contains over 200 bones.  We'll have less than 20, so it needs to look right to start out with.  Move the chest forward a bit, arch the back in, push the butt out, etc.  Also, it could use a little beefing up.  Not because it's super scrawny, but because the player hitbox is 56 units tall and 32 units wide.  Of course it'd be impossible to fit a realistically proportioned person in that space, but I don't want him to look like a toothpick in comparison to the old models.

[Eiii]

Hm... he does need to have depth, like jits said. Also, I don't like the "pants", or separation between shoes and pant legs. I like the model we have now, and i'd love it if we could just amp it up some.

[3dblu]

Hey guys I have some shot of another char. I've done
the first few shots are unedited and there is one with a close up of the mask.  Lemme know so i can get this thing as good as possible.  Please keep in mind that this is really a base in which to work off of I have many edits to make such as the mask. 

http://www.logictechnologies.com/keith/stuff/pbchar/

-3dblu

[jitspoe]

The mask is looking much better.  Some things that need to be tweaked:

- The bottom of the mask bends in, not out.
- Use more hard edges, particularly in the areas I outlined in green.  It needs to look like hard plastic, not an organic blob.   I'm not sure how the exporter will handle hard edges, but in the game they actually need to have separate vertexes.
- Transparent part looks slightly dome shaped -- cut out some polygons in there and make it look like a single piece of plastic bent in a curve, as I'm pretty sure that's how the flex masks are designed.
- The area around the ears still needs to be dropped down.
- Masks are made of thin plastic.  What you have looks really thick.

As for the rest of the body:
- Get the shirt tucked in.
- The clothing looks like heavy sweatshirt material, which was good for the recballer, but we need to make it look like lightweight jersey material.  Take a look at this for reference: http://www.planetquake.com/digitalpaint/images/devel/jersey2.jpg
- We can attach pods and other equipment dynamically, so don't embed that stuff into the player model.

This is going to be nice when it's done.

[Eiii]

I hope.

The co2 cans in the back make for a good potential reload animation...

[S8NSSON]

eiii those are NOT co2 cans...they are PODS. Each pod holds 100-150 paintballs. Google for "paintball player" and you will see these worn by all tournament players.

These PODS are actually a source of concern for Rob & I.
Should they even be on the model?


On Another note...
I would like to suggest that when we impliment the new models & format with all the new markers and accessories that we switch the co2 bottles to HPA (high pressure air) bottles. HPA bottles are most common amongst experienced players today. They have a slightly different shape than the classic co2 bottle (cooler looking if you ask me). The only thing about HPA is that you never have to worry about the freezing problem that Jistpoe so kindly coded in

I'm theorizing that Jitspoe wouldn't and/or shouldn't even change the co2 namings in his code. Just simply replace the model and skin to the newer, more common, HPA bottle.

here's some HPA links for ya's to see how cool they look:
http://www.buypmi.com/pure_energy.html
http://www.armyoforr.com/worrgas.html
http://www.sakworldpaintball.com/anairfilowpr.html

[jitspoe]

Pods: I've considered using pods for ammo, but this would inevitably make people complain that I'm changing the game too much.  On the plus side, it would mean people would eventually have to reload as opposed to constantly spraying and picking up ammo packs around the level.  On the minus side, it would be one more key to bind and an added layer of complexity to a game that has a fairly steep learning curve as it is.  Also, ammo pods and CO2 are much more difficult to distinguish from each other than ammo boxes and CO2, especially at a distance.  A box has a much lower poly count, too.

Whatever we decide to do, the pods should not be on the player model itself.  They can should be a separate model attached by a bone.

HPA/CO2: I was actually thinking of adding N2 tanks as kind of a special power-up that would counter the freezing, but... all of the servers just disable gun freezing anyway, so it seemed kind of pointless.

[S8NSSON]

Although pods definately do come in black, it is much more common to have florescent colored, clear, or silver pods for visibilty. In real paintball, after a pod is used it is quickly tossed out of the way only to be retrieved at the end of the game. Therefore pod visibility is important. But I kinda like the boxes myself.

The problem here is if you start wanting to add pods you open up a whole new can of worms:
Do you allow people to pickup pods with a max of three or four per person?
Do you make people pickup boxes of paint that fill the pods then force a manual reload via a button?
Then do you have a speed or jump penalty the more pods you have attatched?

You see where this is going? ...nowhere, cause it will never end till you just said to heck with it and went and played real paintball.

I think the N2 power-up idea is sweet, but re: your comment on that.
Another idea would be to modify the four levels of co2 as they sit now. Have two co2 and two N2 and hard code freezing to the two co2. Have a 12ozCO2, 20ozCO2, 3000/48 HPA, and 4500/68 HPA. The smallest co2 (the one you spawn with)  would be able to shoot about as much as the current default till you freeze up for a bit. It's a thought. You have to admit, those HPA bottle look much better than the co2 bottle do!

[jitspoe]

They look about the same to me, minus the pressure gauge.

[Eiii]

Ooh. For the pods, you should just have it so a player has this- an ammo count, and an infinite amount of pods that hold ~100 paintballs. Every 100 paintballs, it just reloads automatically... as if you had a pod. If you don't understand, it's my fault.

[jitspoe]

Let's keep this on topic.  I've started a new thread about pods here: http://dpball.com/forums/index.php?topic=795.0

[3dblu]

Hey all,  Here is some progress on the model.  Wanted you guys to have a look just to make sure I am headed in the right direction.  I see the character as a contemporary tournament player.  As a result I have modeled in baggy pants and a loose jersey.  I have tried to show the look of the jersey through the wrinkles in the sleeves and along the sides of the torso.  I have added some wrinkles on the front but as many players may wear a breast plate or some sort of added protection under their jersey, I tried to give it more "bulk".  The pants are baggy as many players wear loose fitting pants for manuverability.  The ref pic Jitspoe gave shows the player with tucked in pants.  I didn't really think that this was too common so chose the more probable route.  If these choices are not desireable then I can always go in and make adjustments.  I personally think the refpic sorta looked like the dudes mommy dressed him.  Now the mask, I can add more geometry if wanted or leave as is.  Also notice the polys inside the mask intended for the texturing of the face of the player.  As the model sits now it has 2402 faces.  It is really up to Jitspoe how detailed we want to get.  I can go up to 3000 and and add detail wherever wanted or needed.  Maybe add mor physical detail to the mask as an example.  We could even add hair to the model by using single polys assorted and textured so as to give the impression of  actual strands of hair.  Ok I can't really think of anything else questions, comments and useful critiques please let me hear them and help develop something we are all proud to release.

[Termin8oR]

Not Bad. Just 1 thing, the face mask doesnt look very real... touch it up maybe and add depth to the eye and cheek parts.

-Termin8oR

[Eiii]

Personally, I HATE the baggy clothes...

[S8NSSON]

Very nice Rob.
The character looks alot better. There is some tweaking on the side of the mask that needs to be done (as we discussed in person). And from the side the mask, as a whole, looks smallish, but looks fine from the front view...hmm....interesting.

Adding cheek and eye detail might be a good idea, BUT...we have to keep in mind that the face detail will be behind the lens. The lens will have some kind of reflection, or color, or something else drawn on it so you can actually tell there is a lens there. That is going to block most, and all in some cases, of the facial visibility. So the lower detail on the face area saves polygons.

The baggy cloths look great. I do think the ref pic Jitspoe provided looks a little like a model and not a real player. Real players, although a good ammount do tuck thier pants in or strap them down, wear more bulk than that ref pic.

I guess, all in all, Jitspoe's comment is the one that really counts.

re: Personally, IHATE the baggy clothes...
THIS is why I asked Jitspoe to make a private forum for us to pass developement critique. There is NO constructive critisism in that statement eiii. You simply stated your personal feeling with disregard for what the topic of this post asks for, CONSTRUCTIVE Critisism.

Another reason I asked Jitspoe to make a private forum is that I seriously doubt most of you have any real 3D experience. This limits your ability to look past what you see. Most of you have not learned, by repetition, to view WIPs, and see beyond what's presented, and visualize what could be. For instance, the mask still needs a little tweaking, but it's nearly as close to perfect as it's going to get without adding polygons. The skin is where the magic happens.

Take a look:

Here we see an unskinned mask...plain, almost yucky looking, right?


NOW look at it skinned...a BIG difference, eh?


Now have a look at what the mask looks like from a full character view.


Look...I'm not downing anyone for not being trained to visualize 3D objects past and through thier WIP (work in progress) states. It's just something that people learn to do over time. The problem arises when inexperienced people give critisism, or unconstructive critisism in some cases, and confuse and alter the work and momentum of the artists. When, if they could "visualize" the WIP, the comments would be altogether different.

BTW: The character shown above was modeled by someone else for the MVPB Ut2k3-4-5-6-7---138 mod that will never be released becuase of...we won't go there. I just did the skin for it.

[jitspoe]

It's coming along, but I think you really need to find some good reference pics to get a better idea of how the equipment fits on a person.  The mask, for example, is far too small.


(this one doesn't have the visor, but you should get the basic idea)

I threw together a quick outline approximating where the mask should go:

Also, highlighted in green are polygons that should be removed -- they're so small they'd never be seen.

As for the jersey.  After looking around a bit, I see what you mean about the untucked/baggy look.  I think the problem with the model as it stands is not the fact that it's baggy, but the fact that it looks like a really thick and heavy sweatsuit.  Also, if the shirt is untucked, it won't be bunched up at the waist like that.

I guess I'm not too picky about untucked vs. tucked.  It can go either way so long as it looks good (and we can always do two different models that share skins -- one tucked in, one untucked and let the players decide).  If you want it untucked, though, you'd need to model it more like this:

Some other notes: The shoulders look like he's really stiff or he's shrugging.  Sag them down a little to make the pose more natural.  You have what looks like pectoral muscles and a rib cage modelled.  Scratch those and instead make it look more like baggy jersey.

The bagginess around the ankles... like I mentioned, it looks more like sweatpants than a lightweight jersey.  Here are some photos for reference:






Perhaps we should take some polygons out of there and leave it more up to the skin to add the wrinkles, since most are so small it would be impossible to model them without insane polygon counts.

The wrists: again with the heavy wrinkles.  Keep in mind there are really only two functions for the polygon mesh: outlining the shape and lighting.  The rest can be done with the skin/texture.  The lighting as it stands looks kind of funky, and the outline looks like the material is too thick.  I wish I could be a little lest vague, but it needs to be reworked somehow.  Also, the elastic band part of the jersey should conform naturally to the wrist/hand.  Right now it looks like the elastic band was preformed and the hands were just kind of stuck onto it.

The hands: first of all, the knuckles look like they're way back in the middle of the hand.  Those need to be moved forward.  These will need some more polygons, around the thumb especially.  I really like the way the hands on the MVPB model look (except for the wrists, where the jersey should be tight around them).  How many polygons is that model, anyway?

Shoes: I know I said to make them more boot-like, but looking through my reference pics, it looks like most people wear some kind of either specially-designed shoes or sneakers.  I also like the way the MVPB shoes look, so try to go for that style.

[jitspoe]

This model has some nice "lightweight" pants.  Most of that is texture work, but the mesh gives enough of an outline to really highlight the large wrinkles.  See if you can do something along those lines.

[3dblu]

Newer.....sleeve edits

[Dirty_Taco]

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