Digital Paint Discussion Board
Paintball 2: The Game => Paintball 2 Discussion => Topic started by: m7feettall on February 17, 2008, 04:37:28 PM
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Several folks have complained about those distributing cheats getting longer ban times than those using them. A simple fix would be to give anyone involved with cheating a 1k day ban.
This would have to start from the present, rather than going back after the fact to adjust old bans.
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its is pretty consistent isn't it
mass distribution or creation of hacks= 1024 days or permanent
sharing hacks with couple people = 32 days
using hacks= 32 days and doubles every time your caught
multiple accounts = 16 days
multiple accounts with confession = 8 days
thats how i always saw the banning times to be
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So someone who plotted murder but didn't go through with it should get the same punishment as someone who did commit murder?
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So someone who plotted murder but didn't go through with it should get the same punishment as someone who did commit murder?
As far as I am concerned the one who pulls the trigger and the one who plotted out every detail so that he could share in the same crime. Various governments may have a different take.
But whatever governments say regarding murder this is not a criminal justice system. This is a game. And games that care about the end-user's experience or their reputation do not give leniency to cheating. They crush it out. That is what I am suggesting be done.
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Ok, so it's just a game. So why are you caring about what happens?
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Ok, so it's just a game. So why are you caring about what happens?
Because I play the game. And I expect it to be free from cheats when they are found. Why does anyone care when someone cheats at a game? It ruins the experience for others.
They don't need the game to survive. They don't even need it to be happy. This is not torture or sleep deprivation. It is just removing the privilege that they did not value in the first place.
My main purpose for stating that it is a game was to note that the murder example is simply not comparable. I was not stating that since it is a game nothing matters, anything goes, let them do whatever they want.
Games add enjoyment to life. But games are meaningless when rules are not followed. Those who can't follow them need not play.
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so are you like "the law" these days?
what you say goes ya?
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mass distribution or creation of hacks= 1024 days or permanent
sharing hacks with couple people = 32 days
Lies. I did the second one i.e. sharing it with a couple people and yet I still have 1024.
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mass distribution or creation of hacks= 1024 days or permanent
sharing hacks with couple people = 32 days
Lies. I did the second one i.e. sharing it with a couple people and yet I still have 1024.
Distribution is distribution, no matter how many people are on the receiving end.
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So someone who plotted murder but didn't go through with it should get the same punishment as someone who did commit murder?
This is not real life. Please dont compare real life events to the game. it wont help anyone's cause.
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so are you like "the law" these days?
what you say goes ya?
Nope. It is a suggestion. If I had any authority it would have already been done and I wouldn't be hashing it out here.
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Lies. I did the second one i.e. sharing it with a couple people and yet I still have 1024.
And my solution would get rid of those ambiguities.
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The problem with this is, if everyone that touched hacks had a 1024 day ban, there wouldn't be any meddling players left, besides your average newbie/noname who isn't fun to play with anyways
Edit: I know you guys like to treat this like a big deal, real life situation kind of deal, but when it all comes down to it, it's just a free online game with a comparatively small community. The ban system is fine the way it is, 1024 days sounds shorter than it really is, and isn't warranted for just one slip-up.
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Well i got 64 days for "assisting" a player in finding hacks. Even though i never gave him a link or anything. The kid never did hack either.
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When a ban is handed out, we also take in to consideration any other past offenses when making the final decisions.
So the ban times stated above are guidlines, not written in stone.
I don't think the community would like it if there were no flexibility built in.
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When a ban is handed out, we also take in to consideration any other past offenses when making the final decisions.
So the ban times stated above are guidlines, not written in stone.
I don't think the community would like it if there were no flexibility built in.
Those who cheat or help with it should have NO place in the game. Flexibility in dealing with cheating is just a nice way of saying you are not eliminating it completely. If you get rid of the flexibility and just get rid of all known cheaters folks may be less willing to cheat in the future.
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The problem with this is, if everyone that touched hacks had a 1024 day ban, there wouldn't be any meddling players left, besides your average newbie/noname who isn't fun to play with anyways
So anyone who is fun to play with cheats?
Don't buy that for a second.
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No, it isn't fun to play with them. But that's why they still get *banned*. The problem with your logic isn't the banning it's the overkill of the punishment versus the crime. It's like you're saying someone stole a bag of chips so they should get the meddling death penalty...
God. everyone on this forum just has to play CSI agent lately :P
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No, it isn't fun to play with them. But that's why they still get *banned*. The problem with your login isn't the banning it's the overkill of the punishment versus the crime. It's like you're saying someone stole a bag of chips so they should get the meddling death penalty...
God. everyone on this forum just has to play CSI agent lately :P
Please demonstrate how not letting someone play dp is like the death penalty? It is not remotely similar. There is nothing horrendous in preventing someone from playing a game that they have undermined by their actions.
Cheating ruins the game, ruins the experience for others and should not be tolerated in any way. And i do not even watch CSI, nor am I pretending to be an agent, finding things out. I am asking that when folks are found they are removed from the community so we can have a decent game.
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Youre posting yourself into a hole m7.
You cant ban everyone for hacking with a lifetime. ruins the game, its community, and its fanbase...
youd know this if you idled more than just #team_int on IRC =\
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Youre posting yourself into a hole m7.
You cant ban everyone for hacking with a lifetime. ruins the game, its community, and its fanbase...
youd know this if you idled more than just #team_int on IRC =\
A. Not everyone hacks.
B. Those who hack are not worth keeping for part of the community or fanbase.
C. If DP died because it turns out everyone DOES hack then it deserved to die. But again, that is not the case.
D. Are you saying if I idled more I would see more hackers?
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yes like me. ive hacked. got banned too... your opinions are a bit one sided. =(
banning me from the game for life for a one time use of penix or multiple accounting is a bit over the top...
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yes like me. ive hacked. got banned too... your opinions are a bit one sided. =(
banning me from the game for life for a one time use of penix or multiple accounting is a bit over the top...
Multi accounting is not hacking.
And banning you for life from the game, or anyone else who does it, is exactly what this game needs. Then others will not get the message that you can do what you want and only get 32 days.
As to a one sided opinion, yes, I am clearly on the side that does not cheat. Cheaters should have no side. They should be banned from the game, from the forums and should be held up as examples of what not to do and be.
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Please demonstrate how not letting someone play dp is like the death penalty? It is not remotely similar. There is nothing horrendous in preventing someone from playing a game that they have undermined by their actions.
Cheating ruins the game, ruins the experience for others and should not be tolerated in any way. And i do not even watch CSI, nor am I pretending to be an agent, finding things out. I am asking that when folks are found they are removed from the community so we can have a decent game.
Ok let's say right now everyone who ever hacked got permabanned. How many active players do you think would be left.. the answer might surprise you.
Clearly the analogy was a little complicated for you so let me explain where I was coming from. See the permaban symbolizes the death penalty because it is an effective killing of the person's dp-life.
Let's back up to another real world example, this time using posession of drugs and distributing of drugs. Posession of marijuana in most states will get you under a year of jail time or just a fine. distributing of marijuana will get you between 1 and 5 years usually.
Substitute hacks in for drugs and maybe you'll see why your idea makes no sense.
Multi accounting is not hacking.
And banning you for life from the game for one time of hacking is what is needed in this game. Then others will not get the message that you can do what you want and only get 32 days.
Flame got banned for hacking before he multi-accounted, should probably check up on that kind of stuff before you tell him what he was and wasn't banned for. And look at him now.. The system worked flawlessly. I see a decent member of the community who is 100% hacks free.
EDIT: A longer ban time won't make it more of a deterrant, if anything more people will just try to beat the system!
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Lol m7, stop posting... seeing as in half this community knows how to hack or has hacked and been banned....
kill the community, great logic. find a new game if you feel so strongly about this.
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Ok let's say right now everyone who ever hacked got permabanned. How many active players do you think would be left.. the answer might surprise you.
Let's first go with what I actually proposed. Permaban those who were CAUGHT. That would be those on the ban list, minus those who multi-accounted. I could live with that with no regrets whatsoever.
Clearly the analogy was a little complicated for you so let me explain where I was coming from. See the permaban symbolizes the death penalty because it is an effective killing of the person's dp-life.
Nope, not complicated. Just that the two are not comparable. But let's take your analogy on your terms for a moment.
A. The death penalty is a SEVERE penalty in LIFE. Stealing chips is a relatively MINOR crime in LIFE. Therefore the punishment would not fit the crime.
B. A permanent ban is a SEVERE penalty in DP. Cheating is a SEVERE CRIME in DP as it invalidates the whole game, making it pointless when folks have an unfair advantage over others. Therefore a severe punishment in DP is given out for a severe crime in DP. There is no problem there..
Let's back up to another real world example, this time using posession of drugs and distributing of drugs. Posession of marijuana in most states will get you under a year of jail time or just a fine. distributing of marijuana will get you between 1 and 5 years usually.
Substitute hacks in for drugs and maybe you'll see why your idea makes no sense.
Cheaters kill the game. Those who help cheaters kill the game. We don't need EITHER of them to hang around for one second more than it takes to discover them if we actually value the game. Unlike drug dealing etc. this is not involving jail time or anything of the sort. It is only involving the removal of a privilege.
Flame got banned for hacking before he multi-accounted, should probably check up on that kind of stuff before you tell him what he was and wasn't banned for. And look at him now.. The system worked flawlessly. I see a decent member of the community who is 100% hacks free.
I didn't tell him at all what he was banned for. He raised both scenarios as part of the conversation. I was differentiating between hacking, which my initial proposal addressed, and multi-accounting, which it did not.
As for his reform why would I ever trust him if he twice broke the rules? For all I know he still hacks and hasn't been caught. That would not be a question mark if he were simply banned.
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Lol m7, stop posting... seeing as in half this community knows how to hack or has hacked and been banned....
kill the community, great logic. find a new game if you feel so strongly about this.
A. I would be fine with losing half the community if all of them hacked.
B. You have yet to demonstrate that half have hacked. Certainly not half have been banned.
C. Your reasoning seems to be that cheating should continue on unabated because you like the cheaters. No thanks.
D. I don't get the idea that you are at all remorseful over your actions. You seem to think everyone who wants to get rid of cheating should find another game and just allow the cheats.
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lol you inferred all that from 2 lines of text? impressive...
Im saying you need to find a new game if you have a problem with the community being a bunch of jerks/ex hackers...
im not remorseful for using the penix wallhack? why should i be? i took my 32 days and came back like everyone else...
also I never said half the clan hacked/hacks i said half knows how, has in the past, or has been banned for it...
Dont change my words =\
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A. I would be fine with losing half the community if all of them hacked.
Well it's a good thing you're not in charge, cause you would do a horrible job at running an online game with that mentality.
B. You have yet to demonstrate that half have hacked. Certainly not half have been banned.
Lol.. global login isn't very old. You should go back and read some posts from before when login was around.
C. Your reasoning seems to be that cheating should continue on unabated because you like the cheaters. No thanks.
They already get banned. nobody said cheating should continue, all everyone has said is that your punishment is way meddling overkill for the crime.
D. I don't get the idea that you are at all remorseful over your actions. You seem to think everyone who wants to get rid of cheating should find another game and just allow the cheats.
No, he just said you should find a different game because you're being neurotic over how to control cheating. Effectively what you're saying is "to keep puppies from pooing in the house we should kill all the puppies."
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THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE - NO REAL LIFE COMPARISONS KTHX.
Now, M7.....
I am completely on your side. If you hack or cheat, perm ban.
Get over it people.
banning me from the game for life for a one time use of penix or multiple accounting is a bit over the top...
Go play CS and cheat, I dare you.
If you got caught with punkbuster playing another game, you'd get a perm ban first time out, no warnings.
Why should DP be different?
Like M7 said, if banning all cheaters significantly reduces the size of the community, then it does deserve to die and Jits can breath a sigh of relief in that he wont have to worry about the idiots CHEATING IN A FREE GAME.
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communitys not that tight in CS
i could mac address change, and ip change real quick and evade that... with a new account and nobody would care enough to ban me...
so yeah =\
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I wonder what m7's opinion of your blue poka dotted neon green speedo would be knackerz?? *Snap* oh wait that's your man thong hehe
On the subject, I'm curious if Jitspoe has made any comparisons to prior years in relation to his more recent efforts to stop cheating. (Cheating is up or down by what %)
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flame, you can't ip change as easy as you think you can.
MAC spoofing yes.
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lol you inferred all that from 2 lines of text? impressive...
Im saying you need to find a new game if you have a problem with the community being a bunch of jerks/ex hackers...
And I say why? Easier to get rid of the hackers.
im not remorseful for using the penix wallhack? why should i be? i took my 32 days and came back like everyone else...
Exactly. You could care less that what you did was wrong. You just served your time.
also I never said half the clan hacked/hacks i said half knows how, has in the past, or has been banned for it...
Dont change my words =\
Alright, demonstrate your words. Show Which ones that includes. List for me the following:
a. All previous hackers that were caught.
b. All current hackers.
Let's see if it adds up to fifty percent.
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Well it's a good thing you're not in charge, cause you would do a horrible job at running an online game with that mentality.
Why would getting rid of cheaters be bad? You have yet to tell me other than you think it is "overkill".
Lol.. global login isn't very old. You should go back and read some posts from before when login was around.
I have read some of them. But since you are making the claim that it was half of the population i want you to document it. Feel free to provide the stats.
They already get banned. nobody said cheating should continue, all everyone has said is that your punishment is way meddling overkill for the crime.
Yet other games give permanent bans for cheating. How is it overkill? You not liking it and preferring people to get a slap on the wrist does not make it overkill.
No, he just said you should find a different game because you're being neurotic over how to control cheating. Effectively what you're saying is "to keep puppies from pooing in the house we should kill all the puppies."
Again a failed analogy. Puppies will poop. But players NEED NOT HACK. They choose to. But I would get rid of EVERY cheater, no matter how bad you think that is.
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communitys not that tight in CS
i could mac address change, and ip change real quick and evade that... with a new account and nobody would care enough to ban me...
so yeah =\
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You have not addressed his logic. You have only said that you could EVADE in CS. You have not addressed the fact that VALVE also thinks cheating is a perma ban worthy offense. The whiners in this community who get caught and don't like it are not really representative of other people's views on cheating.
Now since you have just demonstrated also that this community IS tighter and we would figure it out, that is all the better reason to make a more fool-proof permanent ban on cheaters. We could do it BETTER than Valve. Let's start now.
You screw up the game and you should have no part in the game.
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Go play CS and cheat, I dare you.
If you got caught with punkbuster playing another game, you'd get a perm ban first time out, no warnings.
Why should DP be different?
communitys not that tight in CS
so what? what does the closeness of the community have anything to do with cheating/bans?
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so what? what does the closeness of the community have anything to do with cheating/bans?
yes? punkbuster and VAC ban you with a computer which doesnt know your history / background
dp youre banned by a single person, who knows if your ips look the same and the people you play with are the same 300 as opposed to over a thousand...
totally diff scenarios, if you dont think ban evasion is easy on VAC or punkbustered servers, youre mistaken.
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i don't understand why a person's history should matter to their ban time - at least in a fair system. are you against a fair system?
and what does ban evasion have to do with anything? it's the least of my interests - aside from catching those who do it. and i think ban evasion is more deserving of a perma-ban than cheating is.
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im saying the VAC and Punkbuster reference was a bad one... nothing more.
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Punkbuster was not a bad example for the intended purpose. It shows that others think perma bans are GOOD for cheaters.
Your evasion example missed the point. Whether or not you evade a perma ban you deserve one if you cheat.
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Let me throw out a few scenarios:
- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school. One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2. One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people. Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game. You tested the modifications online.
Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?
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Should you be perm-banned from the game for all of these?
Hell yeah, if someone manages to pull off all of those, especially at the same time...
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Let me throw out a few scenarios:
- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school. One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2. One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.was a
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people. Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game. You tested the modifications online.
Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?
Well thats why it will always be hacking in this game. You are allowed to do to much. I say if you want to mod something, get permission from jitspoe. As far as i know you cant modify things in other games as easy as you can here. As far as you playing paintball in public or whatever, it should be login specific bans but that could oppose a problem cause you can easily not login and enter as newbie. Thats why we should make it mandatory to login. AA do it. Get more strict on multi accounts. Try to implement PunkBuster on top of jitspoe weekly checks.
I say the percentage of hackers discovered, is more like 2%. If you already was caught for hacking then you shouldn't be re-punished. Like double jeopardy. People do make mistakes so before you can be banned for forever for hacking i say should tighten up on the things you can do in/with the game first.
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I say if you want to mod something, get permission from jitspoe.
Closing the game source and restricting media modding would be the worst thing for this game... it's in nobody's best interest to require permission from Jitspoe to mod the game.
Try to implement PunkBuster on top of jitspoe weekly checks.
You're footing the billl right? Nonetheless, I've heard from a very reliable source that PunkBuster isn't operable with the Q2 and Half-Life engines.
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Closing the game source and restricting media modding would be the worst thing for this game... it's in nobody's best interest to require permission from Jitspoe to mod the game.
It would help prevent people form cheating. I think it should be like a team like yootz, zorch, xbain and other good developers of content. Dedicated to textures and other things. Like if someone come up with textures outside of that circle than If its a good decision then its brought in. It wont stop anything as far as developing. It will cut down on the hackers.
You're footing the Bill right? Nonetheless, I've heard from a very reliable source that PunkBuster isn't operable with the Q2 and Half-Life engines.
I didn't know that.
Is it possible for paintball to move to quake3 engine and still have double jumping and such?
Would this change still leave DP2 as a standalone?
How bout jits start packing all textures and files in a .pak file and make it where its passworded or something like when it goes to check it can see exact size of pack file to see if its been changed(prob wont work just a suggestion, I'm no developer), But for that to work we would need a set texture pack. If people want to create textures and try them out then make like a sub directory so they can place them in there, and the textures only show up on they private server. It could work with other files to.
It might work, it might not work. Like i said I'm no developer.
Basically I'm saying at this time and stage of DP 1000 day bans is not a good idea for every situation. So I think we should start making more major changes. I'm tired of seeing a minor change here and there. The biggest change we have had was the global login. The feature votes got good things but no ones thinking big enough. We need to start making bigger steps to build up the community.Just my opinions don't quote me on it.
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that's because such large-scale changes take a lot more coding/research/time, for the most part.
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Let me throw out a few scenarios:
- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school. One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2. One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people. Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game. You tested the modifications online.
Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?
Jitspoe,
Right now, with the attitudes of some in this community that will STILL try whatever they can to cheat, I say yes.
WIth only one exception of a developer having a cheat to work on detecting of said cheat.
Maybe if some were made examples of, there wouldn't be so much whining about being banned.
With that being said, if I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting.
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that's because such large-scale changes take a lot more coding/research/time, for the most part.
Wouldn't it be worth it?
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I can only think of a couple players offhand that continued to try cheating after serving their first ban period. I believe there are more players who were caught once, realized it wasn't tolerated, and continued to play cheat free.
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I can only think of a couple players offhand that continued to try cheating after serving their first ban period. I believe there are more players who were caught once, realized it wasn't tolerated, and continued to play cheat free.
I really really really hope that is the rule vs the exception.
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Let me throw out a few scenarios:
- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school. One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2. One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people. Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game. You tested the modifications online.
Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?
Jits,
The issue with me is not those who unknowingly cheated due to someone on a public computer, brother etc. messing with their system. My issue is with those who have hacked willingly.
Now here is the problem. You say you don't know of many who repeat. That may be because some have found undetectable means. Maybe not, ,maybe they went straight.
But even if they did go straight a permanent ban serves another purpose. As Knack said it is a deterrent to others. If you know that folks who hacked previously were lifetime banned you would not want to take your chances. If they knew that it was not a 32 day wrist-slap but a permanent ending to their DP career then we might not have so many in the first place. Frankly for someone wanting a little edge why not try to see if you can get away with something if you only risk a minor censure and a 32 day break? Honesty prevents it with some. But certainly it does not for everyone.
As it is some are saying that as many as 50 percent in the community have had some association with hacking. Is that really what we want? We might as well say DP is not a fair game at all.
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I'd say probably 90% of the people banned don't even know the global ban system exists. Increasing the ban time wouldn't change that.
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my personal opinion is 512 days for hacking and 1024 for ban evasion.
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Ok, so it's just a game. So why are you caring about what happens?
:)
Why are you posting?
You cant ban everyone for hacking with a lifetime. ruins the game, its community, and its fanbase...
:o :o :o <<<----Triple take.
Actually you can, and it will survive. Where do you people get this notion from? Hmm? ::)
Cheating once, shame on you...
Cheating twice, shame on us...perm ban from every venue....period. Good bye! So Long! Far the well!.....
Period. End of problem..time for fun ;D
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I'd say probably 90% of the people banned don't even know the global ban system exists. Increasing the ban time wouldn't change that.
That is an objection that could be addressed.
1. They already should know
2. A simple educational measure could be implemented.
For all those who have a login they either know or do not know due to laziness:
We have a user agreement when creating a login. Each element must be signed off on. This is the first:
Do Not Cheat
Cheating includes, but is not limited to:
- Modifying textures or other content to make players more identifiable
- Using external programs, hacked drivers, modified game executables, etc. to make players more visible or be seen where it should not be possible to see them (in other words, wallhacks).
- Using programs or modifications that adjust your movement and aim, such as speedhacks and aimbots.
Cheating is not tolerated and will result in a global ban from all publicly listed Paintball 2 servers.
When you install the game the first thing you encounter in the license agreement is on cheating:
DO NOT CHEAT
Plain and simple. By installing, using, or owning Paintball2, you agree not to use any cheats or modify the game content in order to gain an unfair advantage while playing against human opponents. Doing so will result in banishment from public servers, disqualification from competitions, and/or legal prosecution. You are also responsible for other players on your computer and/or network. We will not lift a ban simply because somebody else was cheating on your connection.
There is also the likelihood that they suspect some repercussions but are not familiar with the global ban system as such.
Looking at the current bans, several of those folks likely did know quite well about it:
DaRkNeSS
iEATnoobs
KiLo
MaDMaN
dew
The 10 percent you reference that you estimate are familiar with it (do you ever ask folks when banned?) likely are the more skilled players who would turn to cheats for that extra edge. Because they don't suspect it would cost them much if they get caught they have little reason not to.
Then there are those skilled players who are just bored, etc. and want some fun. Some of the recent distribution folks may fall into that category.
If Kilo, etc. had known that a 1k day ban was a possibility, would they have still done it? I am not sure. But I doubt as many would.
Now that a few have gotten the 1k day ban I imagine we see a much lower incidence of distribution among those in the community who do know better. The risk level is now beyond what they are comfortable with unless they really do just want to leave the game with a bang.
Doing the same for the "edge" seeking folks would be beneficial. Those just wanting some improvement to stay competitive are not going to want to risk a lifetime ban instead of just a 32 day one.
Now if you are still worried that some folks do not know then make build 22 with a big notice that pops up when you install that says in 45 point font :
Cheating will result in a lifetime ban from the game.
Then no one can say they were not warned, and you would have your deterrent.
You could also have in small text below the main menu (Cheating will result in a permanent ban).
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heh knack is going to hate me for this ^^
in real life......
people are given a chance or three and\or time in prison. depending on the amount of broken laws and the magnitude of the crime and on a judge's background and\or lifestyle or jury of peers etc. etc. etc..........
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some people reform, some don't, that just means you have to be more harsh with that person next time.
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heh knack is going to hate me for this ^^
in real life......
people are given a chance or three and\or time in prison. depending on the amount of broken laws and the magnitude of the crime and on a judge's background and\or lifestyle or jury of peers etc. etc. etc..........
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some people reform, some don't, that just means you have to be more harsh with that person next time.
Losing rights to a video game is not the same as going to jail, etc.
Since you seem to want a real-life example a closer one may be a relationship to an employer. A job is not a right as is your right to protection from undue punishment etc. You are retained as an employee based on certain criteria. Most times if you are doing your job your fine. But some things can get you fired quite quickly.
Most jobs have some zero-tolerance policies. You agree to follow the guidelines.. If you do not you are fired. The zero-tolerance policy is there to re-enforce the idea that the employer believes this issue is VERY important and to discourage non-compliance.
A zero-tolerance policy on hacking would have the same effect. Put it in BIG letters when folks sign up. Let them know that cheating is not just an "oh well" issue.
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Let me throw out a few scenarios:
- A friend comes over to your house and tries a cheat or two on your computer, since he doesn't want to get caught on his own.
- You and 10-20 other people play together at a public place, such as a computer lab after school. One day somebody tries to be clever and installs a cheat.
- A gaming center features Paintball2. One of the users installs a cheat.
- Your brother lives in the same house and installs a cheat.
- You live in a country where IP's are shared with hundreds of people. Somebody sharing your IP installs a cheat.
- Corrupt memory causes a failed check on your content.
- You put your artistic skills to the test and added a fancy clan tag to the player model.
- You're a fairly skilled programmer and have been working on a new feature to contribute to the game. You tested the modifications online.
Should you be perm-banned from the game for each of these?
I still have not understood why anyone should be perm-banned for cheating at this. It's not like they are reducing other players' fun, except for the very few who actually care about match records and whine every time they lose. If I play and there's someone with a wallhack or aimbot, he'll kill me a bit more often than he would without, so.. who cares? It's still a game. I'm not saying cheaters should not be punished, but anything over a month (32 days) is too much in my eyes.
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/me runs over WW's tail with his high speed carbon fiber wheel chair......
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I still have not understood why anyone should be perm-banned for cheating at this. It's not like they are reducing other players' fun, except for the very few who actually care about match records and whine every time they lose. If I play and there's someone with a wallhack or aimbot, he'll kill me a bit more often than he would without, so.. who cares? It's still a game. I'm not saying cheaters should not be punished, but anything over a month (32 days) is too much in my eyes.
You don't have to obsess about records to still desire a cheat-free environment. Perhaps competition is not as big of a driving force for you as it is others. But while my clan doesn't even keep records as a training clan (we often lose), I still want to know that if i was beat it was because of the person's skill and not because of their using a cheat.
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/me runs over WW's tail with his high speed carbon fiber wheel chair......
bah watch where you are going old timer! * grabs the cut off part and has the asian lady down the street to sew it back together*
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I still want to know that if i was beat it was because of the person's skill and not because of their using a cheat.
You'll find out that if he gets banned. What does that have to do with ban time?
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:)
Why are you posting?
At least people can read and understand what I'm trying to say.
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You'll find out that if he gets banned. What does that have to do with ban time?
Because the whole point of banning is that it prevents cheating. Cheating negatively impacts the game. It is not as though folks are dumb enough not to know that. But it is their only defense when cheating to go on and on defending it as no big deal.
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this m7 kid needs to be stopped before he hurts himself.
Stopped what? Giving my opinion?
The cheaters need to be stopped because they are hurting the game. And since you are a previous cheater who has already said you have no remorse for what you did I expect nothing more from you than what you are giving--excuses.
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i see no excuses... nt champ =\
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i see no excuses... nt champ =\
You don't? You don't see the "everyone does it, you would ban half the community " excuse?
You don't see the "why don't you just leave if you don't like it" excuse?
You don't see the excuse that not everyone knows about the ban system (though everyone who downloaded the game and set up a login were notified of it).
You must not be paying attention.
This thread has nothing BUT excuses for why people should be allowed to hack without fear of long ban times.
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Those arent excuses... more or less facts.
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children ... please ...
Please state why you think we are acting like children?
I am debating the merits of long ban times. That is within the rules of this forum. Addressing counter-arguments is not childish.
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Those arent excuses... more or less facts.
A. You have not yet shown that half the community does it. It is not a fact. Nor would it matter even if they did. Half of the population doing something wrong does not make it right. Therefore you are using this as an excuse to get us not to pursue longer ban times. If that is not your intention in citing the so called fact then what is your intention?
B. The "why dont' you leave" excuse is just that. It certainly isn't a fact as it is a suggestion, not a statement. It is just your way of saying you could care less about cheating--ie you are excusing it. Anyone who doesn't share your carefree attitude about cheating should move on. That is an excuse.
C. The not everyone knowing is not a fact either as they have had opportunity to know. If there is not enough opportunity then that can be addressed through practical steps. So again it is NOT a reason to not pursue long ban times.
A reason to not pursue long ban times that would NOT be an excuse is one based around an ethical argument discussing the moral ramifications. Deranged attempted this. You started to before offering all these excuses. But since no one can provide a great ethical reason why removing rights to a video game is a an in-humane, horrendous punishment we are left to the same old excuses.
Another possible objection, attempted by Jits, is a practical one. But if it can be overcome then the objection is no reason not to follow the longer ban times.
It all comes down to this--people AGREED not to hack. If they do hack they have no excuse and no reason to whine if they are removed from the game.
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A. You have not yet shown that half the community does it. It is not a fact. Nor would it matter even if they did. Half of the population doing something wrong does not make it right. Therefore you are using this as an excuse to get us not to pursue longer ban times. If that is not your intention in citing the so called fact then what is your intention?
I'm almost positive at least 2 members from every good DP clan have been caught hacking in the past... believe it...
B. The "why dont' you leave" excuse is just that. It certainly isn't a fact as it is a proposition, not a statement. It is just your way of saying you could care less about cheating--ie you are excusing it.
Im not excusing cheating... merely stating that you should not be perm banned for using a penix wallhack once, nor changing a paint texture, nor speeding across a map a few times... idk what youre getting at.
C. The not everyone knowing is not a fact either as they have had opportunity to know. If there is not enough opportunity then that can be addressed through practical steps. So again it is NOT a reason to not pursue long ban times.
rephrase that? the not everyone... def wrong dont even argue that in your next post i have no idea what youre trying to even say there
A reason to not pursue long ban times that would NOT be an excuse is one based around an ethical or utilitarian argument discussing the moral ramifications. Deranged attempted this. You started to before offering all these excuses.
I still dont know what excuses youre referring to nor what you think im excusing...
...you wont win this argument =(
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I'm almost positive at least 2 members from every good DP clan have been caught hacking in the past... believe it...
That is not half the community. Even if we take your figures there are more than two people in each clan. And there are more clans than just the good ones. And there are many people not even in clans.
And WHY would that mean we should not punish them with long ban times?
I wrote up a response to all of it, but lets start here for now so that we don't just jump back and forth and not address the points in depth.
Why should half of the community doing something (if it were half), mean we should not give out long ban times?
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Now if you are still worried that some folks do not know then make build 22 with a big notice that pops up when you install that says in 45 point font :
Cheating will result in a lifetime ban from the game.
Then no one can say they were not warned, and you would have your deterrent.
Okay, But how does some 10 year old from Brazil know that changing the jpg's for paintballs to be neon is cheating? He probably just wants to make it look cool. How does some kid changing his models to bevis and butthead know that its cheating? I mean, there are sites that you can download quake2 models on, they don't say its cheating.
Exactly.
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Okay, But how does some 10 year old from Brazil know that changing the jpg's for paintballs to be neon is cheating? He probably just wants to make it look cool. How does some kid changing his models to bevis and butthead know that its cheating? I mean, there are sites that you can download quake2 models on, they don't say its cheating.
Exactly.
He can read the type below it that spells it out. That is all spelled out in the EULA. The big text would just get their attention.
And if someone can figure out custom models they can probably read an agreement to know it is a problem.
Now, do you think most of the people hacking who are known skilled players in decent clans really didn't know? Why should they NOT get long ban times?
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m7 the ban system will not change. =(
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m7 the ban system will not change. =(
That is not an answer to the question. WHY does it matter that 2 people from every good clan are banned? Why would that mean we should not give long ban times? If two people from every good clan are CHEATING then we are better off without them. There will be other good players for good clans.
Your statement that it will never change adds nothing of substance to the debate of whether they SHOULD change. I don't know whether they will change or not. We didn't have 1k day bans very often at all before. And now the committee decided to make it the regular penalty for distribution. So we have a precedent for a committee led change toward stiffer penalties. Now the question is whether it SHOULD change.
You said that two people from every good clan cheated. So what? Why does that matter? Why does that mean we should not have long ban times?
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Youre kidding me if you dont think this game is HEAVILY reliant on its IRC community. the pub noobies and 30000 registered nicks are nothing without the 25 clans on IRC... many of which contain hackers or ex hackers. if the clan system on IRC died due to perma bans, the whole game would have no purpose.
No you can not argue this for I have nothing more to say about that... this game thrives off the IRC action, where everything is said... which youd know if you idled ANY channels or knew ANY players.
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Youre kidding me if you dont think this game is HEAVILY reliant on its IRC community. the pub noobies and 30000 registered nicks are nothing without the 25 clans on IRC... many of which contain hackers or ex hackers. if the clan system on IRC died due to perma bans, the whole game would have no purpose.
No you can not argue this for I have nothing more to say about that... this game thrives off the IRC action, where everything is said... which youd know if you idled ANY channels or knew ANY players.
A. You just admitted I don't idle any channels. Yet I enjoy the game a lot, have my own clan, and play a number of scrims a week. So how is it that only IRC people matter? Obviously others who are not on IRC all the time enjoy the game and are part of the community.
B. I can get to know players in the game. I rarely see much going on in irc when I idle there other than a few arguments etc. I know the players in my own clan and we hang out on vent enjoying voice communication. So how am I missing out?
C. Two players from each clan will not kill the IRC community. It will just kill the HACKERS from the IRC community. And we would be better off without them.
You of course don't have to argue any more but I will decide if I choose to, thanks.
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no problem bro... your points are just proving me right.
if 3 players from every clan got perma banned right now, do you know how many clans would just say screw dp and quit for better games?
what clans do you "scrim" that arent the ones I'm referring too other than "We Suck Less" and maybe some one day pub euro clans? that arent already on the ever so shameful "do not scrim list" omgz0rz
you dont "get to know people" in-game...
perma bans is a bad idea... get over it =(
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no problem bro... your points are just proving me right.
if 3 players from every clan got perma banned right now, do you know how many clans would just say screw dp and quit for better games?
what clans do you "scrim" that arent the ones I'm referring too other than "We Suck Less" and maybe some one day pub euro clans? that arent already on the ever so shameful "do not scrim list" omgz0rz
you dont "get to know people" in-game...
perma bans is a bad idea... get over it =(
Lol now you went from two per clan to three per clan. We suck less died over a month ago. We scrim all kinds of clans from the good ones to noob clans.
Again, people would go on if you ban the cheaters. If some of the folks left because their friends did new clans would come up. Look at all the new international clans cropping up. DP wasn't even in some of these places before and now folks are playing.
The point is that you think DP is JUST the irc community. It isn't. Nor is everyone in irc cheating. Nor would everyone leave if the cheaters were banned.
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i guess i missed the part where I implied any of that?
3 is probably more accurate... and if you took 2 players per clan away, clan scene would prob die... sorry
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i guess i missed the part where I implied any of that?
See if this jogs your memory:
I'm almost positive at least 2 members from every good DP clan have been caught hacking in the past
3 is probably more accurate... and if you took 2 players per clan away, clan scene would prob die... sorry
Probably? I doubt it.
No way to know but to test it :)
Let's start perma banning all new hackers and see what happens. I seriously doubt DP will die. In fact I doubt many will hack once they know the consequences.
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anyone who gets banned for hacking in the future is an idiot for not making sure it wasnt undetectable
and idk how to "job" a memory =\
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Wow.. just reading this thread.. all it is is arguing. Everyone that cheats should be banned long enough to teach them not to do it again. If all the hackers are banned the game will not die. It will be improved if anything. If the cheaters want to leave the game good. And like i was saying a while ago we do not need a committee. There should be some type of guideline for banning! If you mod textures - you get a certain number of days. If you wall hack - you get a certain number of days ect... This would take out all this stupid arguing over this very unproductive forums.
Maybe a new feature could be Automatic bans. Right when the ban is detected, the cheater would be automatically banned for a set number of days according to his offence. I do not know how the cheat detection works to be honest so i don't know if that is possible. But it would stop a lot of this nonsence.
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THANK YOU superman, I like what you say.
Wow.. just reading this thread.. all it is is arguing.
was my point earlier.
... the pub noobies and 30000 registered nicks are nothing without the 25 clans on IRC ...
*correction* over 55000 registered nicks, and 106 DP clans registered on IRC atm (yes i know, many of them are not active)
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Wow.. just reading this thread.. all it is is arguing. Everyone that cheats should be banned long enough to teach them not to do it again. If all the hackers are banned the game will not die. It will be improved if anything. If the cheaters want to leave the game good. And like i was saying a while ago we do not need a committee. There should be some type of guideline for banning! If you mod textures - you get a certain number of days. If you wall hack - you get a certain number of days ect... This would take out all this stupid arguing over this very unproductive forums.
Maybe a new feature could be Automatic bans. Right when the ban is detected, the cheater would be automatically banned for a set number of days according to his offence. I do not know how the cheat detection works to be honest so i don't know if that is possible. But it would stop a lot of this nonsence.
If I recall loial suggested auto bans and jits had a number of reasons he didn't prefer it.
As to arguing...that is expected on such a topic. But there is a difference between presenting an argument and arguing in the more popular sense of the term.
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Autobans work the best.
Nothing teaches anyone better thana good old fasion scarlet leter and a proper class of player?
C is not for cookie its cheating and thats not match worthy.
.....where do we begin a creed....of sportsmanship?
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This is kind of like who has hacked, says no and who hasn't, says yes. Hehe. I say no.
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i guess i missed the part where I implied any of that?
3 is probably more accurate... and if you took 2 players per clan away, clan scene would prob die... sorry
You keep saying this but yet have no proof. If you don't have any proof, drop it.
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Okay, But how does some 10 year old from Brazil know that changing the jpg's for paintballs to be neon is cheating? He probably just wants to make it look cool. How does some kid changing his models to bevis and butthead know that its cheating? I mean, there are sites that you can download quake2 models on, they don't say its cheating.
Exactly.
www.polycount.com
having some modified models isnt really cheating. its when you make\download models specificly to cheat when it becomes a problem :)
(http://www.geocities.com/unibonger519/sshot00.jpg)
take this one for instance.... i used it for about 3 weeks when build6 came out. these models were actually like 6 units smaller then the old dp models :P
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I'm not in agreement with perma-bans for cheating. People SHOULD be given a second chance to redeem themselves, especially NEW players.
Its a fact of life that new players won't realise the harmfulness of their actions, especially in regards to what the Community thinks about it. Its correct we should try and reduce cheating in this game, but I think SuperMAn hits the nail on the head:
Everyone that cheats should be banned long enough to teach them not to do it again.
This no 2nd chances policy is horrible, everyone should be given a second chance for something that generally doesn't have a massive effect upon ones enjoyment of the game (exception being in a clan match). If i'm playing a pub game and somerone is hacking, hes owning me, so what, one guy ahead of me in the ranking that shouldn't be there, I would give that guy a 2nd chance without thinking twice.
I'm all for what you are trying to do M7, but I'm not happy about how you are trying to do it.