New AntiCheat?

[payl]

Hi guys,
first of all, i don't need any flame here, so if you want to troll do it somewhere else. I ONLY need your opinion and arguments. No offtopic etc . Okay? Thanks.

History begins like a month ago: I was developing my anticheat, and i decided to give to Jitspoe demo of it to add it to paintball. Jitspoe told me that he can get source to improve his anticheat, but i decided to not give it to him, because i thought that he won't do anything because of lack of time.
I think that Jitspoe is just too closed for new development so i want to know your opinion about my anticheat (I can't really tell how it does work, but i think it will be better than existing one. Why? I've checked how actual anticheat works, i was able to crack it easily.).

If you guys want to know anything about my anticheat, ask, but i can't tell much about it. I think i would add it as DLL and detect suspicious tools , look for file modifications (Checksum), check for loaded DLL files (and block it), also it would check for WinApi injections (not present in old one). Those are just some features which i would include to fight against cheaters. So i guess cheating wouldn't be that easy anymore (many tools use just DLL injection which i simply block).

Also, if you want to help me in development of anticheat, you might give me some cheats, which i will decompile to look for modifications to make protection and include hash in anticheat database. (I will give you my mail to send it as attachment - I take responsibility for sending it to me).

How would adding my anticheat result? Cheating would become harder and really hard to not get detected. Also i would try to make automatic ban system for known cheats, so those would get banned in minutes = Many cheats doesn't work anymore; Jitspoe lose less development time; bans might get reduced back to 64 days.

Do you think that new anticheat is needed? Give me arguments both for yes and for no. Maybe if you support me, Jitspoe would agree on my help. Discuss!

Edit #1: Removed infos about old anticheat as joonas requested

[Riddick]

personally i like the step jitspoe just took. i think it was a huge step in preventing people from trying out cheats. basically banning you permanetly if you're caught should stop alot of people from trying "new" cheats. but for those in the community who have been hacking and are still currently using undetectable cheats im sure they'll just continue to use them

[Toxiic]

Ill send you a cheat(s), but ill need jitspoe's approval.

I agree with what you have said, but remember if we can improve the anticheat, then it might or it will improve the game experience, for both the experienced players and for new players.

Riddick, look at it this way, if you ban those players who are hacking atm, and give them the new ban times, because of the improvement of the.old anticheat or a new anticheat you might be able to discourage other players from hacking as well, or even the player who used hacks might change his mind and not hack again.

[payl]

personally i like the step jitspoe just took. i think it was a huge step in preventing people from trying out cheats. basically banning you permanetly if you're caught should stop alot of people from trying "new" cheats. but for those in the community who have been hacking and are still currently using undetectable cheats

I think that changing ban times, won't stop random cheaters. If those won't work, they don't even try this again. So less work. And well, i tried to catch NOT ONLY known cheats, but also many unknown with many methods...

Ill send you a cheat(s), but ill need jitspoe's approval.

Of course.

it will improve the game experience, for both the experienced players and for new players.

Sure, but as i have made new one (it's almost done), why not include it? It might cooperate with old one.

[pvtjimmy]

Payl, don't take this as an offense please, but by publicly posting your ideas, you just ruined your chances of your efforts actually getting implemented into the game. No matter if you like it or not, the best thing about Jitspoe's detection is that nobody really knows how it works (you can trust me when I say that not even the committee has info...). Publishing your ideas on how the anti cheat should work, is the first step for potential hackers to build up new hacks.

I seriously appreciate the fact that you're still trying to help (I think this might turn out into a real addition), but I think your current way of working won't be a success. I was happily surprised to hear about it when you contacted jitspoe a few weeks ago offering your help, and I hope you will not consider this offer after my post. But again, please discuss these things with him in private, even if you might have the feeling that Jitspoe needs a little more time.

[payl]

Payl, don't take this as an offense please, but by publicly posting your ideas, you just ruined your chances of your efforts actually getting implemented into the game. No matter if you like it or not, the best thing about Jitspoe's detection is that nobody really knows how it works (you can trust me when I say that not even the committee has info...). Publishing your ideas on how the anti cheat should work, is the first step for potential hackers to build up new hacks.

I seriously appreciate the fact that you're still trying to help (I think this might turn out into a real addition), but I think your current way of working won't be a success. I was happily surprised to hear about it when you contacted jitspoe a few weeks ago offering your help, and I hope you will not consider this offer after my post. But again, please discuss these things with him in private, even if you might have the feeling that Jitspoe needs a little more time.

Those aren't all features, i haven't said for example anything about self protection system (which is i think biggest one). Those are just some, to make impression... I haven't really made big clue for people which would try to decompile it/crack it.
So don't worry, those are just basics, i have much more...

[Addicted to Winning]

Good effort but you should probably talk to jitspoe first since this involves you messing around with hacks... And it's been quite some time since he has let anyone join the Development Team, doubt he'll do it again anytime soon, just assuming here.

[ViciouZ]

It'd be nice to see this, please just do it independently as it seems unlikely to get implemented...

[payl]

Good effort but you should probably talk to jitspoe first since this involves you messing around with hacks... And it's been quite some time since he has let anyone join the Development Team, doubt he'll do it again anytime soon, just assuming here.

I'm not sure if i can join Development Team because i don't know C++ well, but i know Pascal so well... it's up to jitspoe.

It'd be nice to see this, please just do it independently as it seems unlikely to get implemented...

Thats not that simple, because rights under Windows... I would need to hack paintball itself to include my anticheat... kinda strange and i guess Jitspoe wouldn't approve that. But if Jitspoe wouldn't want to include it, we can see. I'm open for ideas how to use it.

 Like it was discussed on IRC, it's impossible to include anticheat without Jitspoe help, and i'm not going to share source because it would then be just left because of no time or some other reason. I don't want to put much effort and simply hear thanks while giving source worth some money.

[SuperMAn]

payl sorry but your source is not worth any money.

[payl]

payl sorry but your source is not worth any money.

Of course it is.
It isn't as simple as i made anticheat for you. it might be included into any game. If Jitspoe doesn't want to include it i might decide to find someone who will pay for it... It is in fact my choose that i want to give it for paintball, but it's not as simple as you grab source and use it, of course. There are some things to do, and i don't want to be left just when i finish it. You have to understand that... Or rather Jitspoe have to.

[UnRateD]

Of course it is.
It isn't as simple as i made anticheat for you. it might be included into any game. If Jitspoe doesn't want to include it i might decide to find someone who will pay for it... It is in fact my choose that i want to give it for paintball, but it's not as simple as you grab source and use it, of course. There are some things to do, and i don't want to be left just when i finish it. You have to understand that... Or rather Jitspoe have to.

What is it that you want? Ofcourse a better cheat detection system would be good, and wed want one. But I doubt Jits would want to pay for it. The current one works fine.

[payl]

What is it that you want? Ofcourse a better cheat detection system would be good, and wed want one. But I doubt Jits would want to pay for it. The current one works fine.

Of course, as this game is free, i don't want money for anticheat. I want to help, not just to be send away when it's done (like it was before when i done some utility). I guess i'll be needed to check logs etc anyways... Is it much for having like 3x better anticheat? No.
And why do i think it would be 3x better? Because i seen how actual anticheat works, and it would be really easy for people with knowledge like me to hack it, to avoid bans, to avoid detection... I tried to make mine much harder to analyze or hack. I personally think that Jitspoe just try to show us "This anticheat is good, no one can hack it. I won't publish any info about it" and this is reason people think this is good anticheat. In fact, it is poor... Thats my opinion, and i'm not sure if anyone other than me and jitspoe seen how in fact his anticheat works.

[Foxhound]

What is it that you want? Ofcourse a better cheat detection system would be good, and wed want one. But I doubt Jits would want to pay for it. The current one works fine.

Meh.. i don't think it does.

Payl see if someone like superman will let you try it out on some of his servers. if more people are caught then great.

What i think is needed is like ZBLOCK. in CSS this forces textures so that material walls can't be used.

and i wouldn;t be saying yours is "better" because this might turn jitspoe off when wanting to use yours. don't be so cocky about it and suggest a trial usage or something.

[payl]

Meh.. i don't think it does.

Payl see if someone like superman will let you try it out on some of his servers. if more people are caught then great.

I already sent Jitspoe demo of early version some time ago. I don't need you to believe, that i'm trying to make something usefull, but before i done some utilities, why would i lie? You think like Jitspoe: "everyone want to hax or destroy something". While i might understand that Jitspoe had history with ZGH, so he might be not so positive, i don't see reason you are like that.

What i think is needed is like ZBLOCK. in CSS this forces textures so that material walls can't be used.

But someone would have to make it, and Jitspoe seems to reject my help. It is easy to dream about something, but it is harder to do it. And when someone does it, he isn't welcome (as far as i can see, no one contacted me to finish it and include it into paintball - i hope this will change).

EDIT:

and i wouldn;t be saying yours is "better" because this might turn jitspoe off when wanting to use yours. don't be so cocky about it and suggest a trial usage or something.

I don't like to lie, i say what i think. IMO mine would be better. I don't blame Jitspoe, he might not have as much time as i have to do it, or other reason, but facts are clear for me.
Of course my anticheat might cooperate with old one, there is no problem making trial before usage everywhere (this might also help to big find bugs in it). But again, it's up to Jitspoe.

[pvtjimmy]

Payl, no matter how experienced you are in developing anticheat software, I think it's unfair to judge someone's work or say yours is better, if you don't know the details of the other system. I don't doubt you know stuff lots of us don't, but based on your posts above it sounds like Jitspoe's cheat detection isn't worth excrement. I doubt anyone will accept your offer to help if you keep presenting yourself with this attitude.

[payl]

Payl, no matter how experienced you are in developing anticheat software, I think it's unfair to judge someone's work or say yours is better, if you don't know the details of the other system.

I know many details of it because i hacked it (ofc won't used publicly or somewhat). It was in fact easy...

I don't doubt you know stuff lots of us don't, but based on your posts above it sounds like Jitspoe's cheat detection isn't worth excrement. I doubt anyone will accept your offer to help if you keep presenting yourself with this attitude.

I got your point. I'm just kind of annoyed that Jitspoe won't give any informations about security of his anticheat, so it might feel like it is safe, while it is not. I know that it might not be nice, but someone have to say that clearly. I don't mean it isn't worth anything, but it is in fact, poor. So don't misunderstand me, i'm not trying to say old anticheat does nothing, but mine is much better. It isn't offense against old one, just information to show fact. I hope you understand me.

Ah, also i found name for mine anticheat: PAC = Payl Anti Cheat. Hope you will like it ^.^

[pvtjimmy]

I'm just kind of annoyed that Jitspoe won't give any informations about security of his anticheat, so it might feel like it is safe, while it is not.

This is what I thought for a while as well, but let me tell you this.
I can't recall if this was just a rumor or actually a fact, but I believe Jitspoe once trusted someone to help him with the anti cheat development. This guy was called Zalttek and later created the ZGH hack, as he exactly knew how it worked and thus how to evade it. Knowing this, do you still think Jitspoe is just trying to make us believe something? Or might it just be to secure the current cheat detection?

[payl]

This is what I thought for a while as well, but let me tell you this.
I can't recall if this was just a rumor or actually a fact, but I believe Jitspoe once trusted someone to help him with the anti cheat development. This guy was called Zalttek and later created the ZGH hack, as he exactly knew how it worked and thus how to evade it. Knowing this, do you still think Jitspoe is just trying to make us believe something? Or might it just be to secure the current cheat detection?

I know ZGH history. Jitspoe have to choose if he want to trust me and include it or not trust me and don't include it. I don't ask for anticheat or paintball source, i just want API and Jitspoe would have to provide me API which i would use.

EDIT (lol clicked post by accident): If you think thats too much, okay. But as far as i know, ZGH haven't FIRST done most of work, am i right? And look, here is almost ready anticheat, check it if you want. i don't ask for any source, i ask only for API and some test versions to let me end it. Then we can start to work on automatic ban system. Can i do cheats with that what you give to me? I don't think this gives me any advantage, do you?
Sorry, but thats not my fault that someone fooled Jitspoe. If you gonna only think that i'm going to do same, we cannot work. But if you let me help, you might make right decision.
I know this might be hard to tell, if i don't want to fool Jitspoe too, but what can i do to prove i'm not going to? Sorry, i don't think i can do anything. So you risk, thats obvious, but i'm trying to prove that i really want to help. Sorry, can't do anything more. There is allways risk. Tell me what more i can do to prove risk is small.

[Foxhound]

i don;t see why jitspoe has to give YOU any information.. but still why can't you just give  him your version to look over and to maybe implement. If he likes what he sees he might let you help out.

of course you should be PMing him not openly posting like this on the thread. This thread was supposed to show that the community was interested in a new cheat detection system, now its mostly begging.