If the Map Pool was forced to 10 maps...

[Rick]

Myers and I have had an idea of limiting the maps on servers to something around 10. This would give new players a chance to actually learn maps rather then play a bunch of maps and get lost in each. I believe this would actually make new people stay and it would make the match scene a lot more competitive. I'm really just throwing this idea out there just to see what the community thinks of it and what Pro's and Con's you guys can come up with!

But does that mean we wont be able to make any new maps for this game?

No, we've also thought about this. The community will be able to make/develop maps and before the release of a new build, there will be a vote and if your map has enough votes, Jitspoe will include it in the new build. This will also give the community something to look forward to when a new build is coming!

Which 10 maps would you choose?

Please list them and tell us why.

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Would you like to see this idea implemented?

[Chef-Killer]

I think it's possible for individual server, but not really in general.

It might be a good idea for public or speed server where new players begin to play. E.g. the [OTB] speed server is limited to 20 maps for a long time and it worked fine that new players learn the maps at all. It's empty at the moment for some reason, though.

But match server just won't get used if they're limited to 10 maps, because there would be enough other match server with all maps.

And limiting the whole game to a low count of maps won't solve all problems in my opinion. However, when you see that we're not able to create an official maplist with around 100 maps, this idea is kind of utopian

[MyeRs]

-- To chef: Set maps on pubs and then not changing competitive scene ruins this idea. The points (as noted below) lower the skill gap, which is one of the hugest problems this game currently has. -- There are difficulties to get this implemented as server owners have the ability to choose what maps go on their servers - but Rick commented on that in the other thread. Server owners shouldn't get that access, if you want to help the game.

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PASTED/MODIFIED FROM MY POST IN OTHER THREAD:

LIMITING THE GAME TO A SMALL-SET NUMBER OF MAPS WOULD HELP:

- BETTER MAPS - Makes mappers have to put far more effort in maps, as something like 1 map per build (which is roughly every 4-5months) would be released. It would be like a competition for them, and with only 10 maps in a game it's far more impressive to have your name on a map. More effort in maps (Game looks better visually), better maps made for the future of the game. Instead of idiots releasing their first maps, and getting them on servers.

- NEW PLAYERS CAN INTEGRATE INTO MATCHING MUCH EASIER - Lowers the skill gap between new and old players. A player right now will be playing Italy/Shock all day, then come on IRC to try to match, and end up playing Pbcup_renoir - They have no chance, and they don't even know the map. With 10ish BALANCED maps, they have seen all these maps, and likely have played these maps 20+ times, knowing them inside out. If players enter the matching scene already knowing the maps + some/most jumps on them, the skill gap isn't as big - learning from watching/spectating other players is far easier too - training them is also easier too. Fixes multiple problems to new players.

- MORE COMPETITIVE MAPPING - TEAMWORK NOW NEEDED - Lowers the skill gap in the competitive scene. -- Matches will be far more interesting if you have a small choice in matchmaps. You can no longer pick a 'random' map to win 1 map, you also likely wouldn't be able to depend on 1 player carrying with individual skill. By having less maps, you'd know how each player will play each map, and teamwork will become a larger part of the game. Or at least, the difference between teams will likely be one of teamwork. (Assuming the 10 maps are balanced maps). --- PROOF OF THIS: Matches on propaint1 are always closer than Pbcup_renoir, as everyone knows Propaint1 and how to play it, but not many teams can play ren well.

- VISUALLY IMPROVED GAME - It improves the visual aspect of the game to new players - we would have a small number of well made maps, instead of seeing dhemap in pubs. (next step would be HR4 on download + model upgrade + rework the mapping).

- CREDIT WHERE DESERVED - Would give Jitspoe far more credit from the community - since each build would also feature a map made by the community - so even if this build has just bug fixes, the community will probably be more interested in it as they get to match on a new map.

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This wont fix everyone, but IMO it's the best option to help the game right now and in the future. Sure, there are a lot of other tweaks/fixes that could do a lot too, but this requires very little from Jitspoe. The only thing he would need to do is FORCE the map pool to 10-maps - and if possible - make it so server owners cannot add maps to their servers. (Look at every good game, they usually have less than 10 maps played, and probably only 2-3 maps played competitively. They require teamwork/communication within the team to win, DP requires none of that). The map list would be something balanced, maps that survive in pubs, and matching scene. Also, none of the 10 maps should require players to pick up guns (I know this takes out a lot of strategic playing too, which sucks, but it's another thing that lowers the skill gap).

My list of 10 'balanced' maps (off the top of my head) (Assuming mapping committee would make them all visually appealing etc..) is: (no order) ---
1) Propaint1 --- Most widely known map, has good enough gameplay, good enough pub presence.
2) Ub_rooftop --- Could look really nice if remodeled, decent gameplay - could be improved.
3) OTH --- I'd prefer pforest, but I feel this is a simpler version of pforest that would survive in pubs and requires much less skill. - An outdoor looking map
4) Rome --- Or a modified version of this (ROME2???) - Gives a city-map look
5) Shazam33 --- Fun map for new players, and could be fun in the competitive scene too. Needs some tweaking, but overall a cool map.
6) Pbcup_sassault --- If remade so new players don't need to find weapons (hurts the gameplay a bit) - and so it's easier for people to see others -- gives a sand-storm type map.
7) Pbcup OR Strap OR Xbmap1 --- Gotta keep in 1 map that can be used for 1on1's and whatnot. Xbmap probably is cooler as the look of speedball bunkers and stuff. Pbcup probably plays the best IMO.
(Don't know, something bigger that could support 4v4/5v5 easier)
9) (Don't know, something bigger that could support 4v4/5v5 easier)
10) (Don't know, something bigger that could support 4v4/5v5 easier)

And yes I'd like to see this idea implemented. Easy fixes that don't require much from Jitspoe is the only way to help the game. He doesn't have time to do the huge things needed.

[Narga]

I think it would be best to allow people to have as many maps in their maps folder as they want, but only limit the amount of maps servers can have in their map rotation to 10 or something.

We should also have some sort of seal of approval. Servers that only use these special maps in their map rotation will also be marked with a seal of approval so players, regardless of how long they've been playing the game, will know for sure that they're playing decent maps.

LAN servers should not have this map rotation limit.

[T3RR0R15T]

I dont like the "10 maps" idea. If we ever have a map pool (or official map list), we can't force it to only 10 maps. We need to keep it individual. There are more different map styles and gamemodes as only 10. What about TDM, KOTH, pong, beta server, jump server,...? All this would be dead with this idea. So if you want to allow this as an own server or special marked server, you can't disallow the server admins to add new maps.
I also don't like the idea to include new maps in each new build. The file size of the new builds would increase too fast and i don't think new players want to download a 2GB file. It's better now, with the map downloads (if needed) directly in the game. Also, if you only want 10 maps, which map should be deleted with each build and why should a mapper spend month for a new map, if it will be deleted after a year? That and a competition to get one of x maps into the next build would (after a few month) frustrate the mappers more and more. Maybe it would work at the beginning, but if a mapper has made some really good maps that don't get enough votes to come in one of the next builds, why should he start a new map? We don't have very much mappers at the moment, should we really blow off the most of them?

You are also right with some things.
We have a lot of maps that are not playable in a normal server, but thats a part for a beta server. New mappers should release their first maps to get feedback and test the maps online at a server. But why do some servers have all the unfinished and beta maps in the normal map folder? There is a beta folder for it, so the server admins have to upload it there and not in the normal map folder. Who cares if (for example) pgptrain_b4 is played often by some people that don't want to type beta/ in front of it? It's a beta map, so they shouldn't be able to start it from a normal map folder. ==> Same with jump maps.
We already have some good maps, but it's of course not bad to get new good maps. But what is "good"? They have to look good and the gameplay needs to be good. To get both in one map is difficult. I think the gameplay is a little, little bit more important. Especially new players need maps that are easy and clear (not to complicated - ways, flag positions). Sometimes a mapper comes out with such a map with much potential, gets feedback and then releases a map where almost no feedback is fixed/changed. Why? The map may be playable, but it looks bad with all the misaligned textures in it. Should we really upload it and show new players such a map? They should stay here and not run away.
The idea from Narga is better for a pub server. Have only 10-15 maps in the rotation. Players know the maps after a while and can play on it. With all the different server, the players can choose another one if they want to play new maps. The best thing is: It already works, there are no changes needed. The server admins just need to do it.

To all mappers: I don't want to fly through the map. Don't add so much ice and jumps to a map. New players and me need a normal way, where we can run through the map in the same time. The normal, easy ways to all flags should be as fast as the fly/jump ways.


Don't know, if i forgot to comment something. Say it if yes.


Btw: You don't need to remake maps to only let the players start with weapons. An ent file is enough for that. We made one for each map on our speed server with full player equipment and a lot of new spawns.

[CheMiCal]

sphouse, mirror2, castle1, sroads_b3<3. can't think of any others that support a 4v4 or 5v5 atm.

[MyeRs]

@T3RR0R15T:

The point is, the current way the game is set, clearly isn't working. CTF is the mode that's most played in this game, and that's what the game should be focused around. Then again, like other games, they do have different mode servers (CS:S for example). But, in their main S&D mode, they do not have 100 maps, they don't survive off speed servers etc...

Also, who cares if builds are slightly larger? It makes it slightly better, too. In League of Legends I wait for upgrades every 2 weeks that are longer than downloading DP2 5 times. DP's are every 4-5months, I'm sure people can have a small update. But it can also be released separately if that's a problem. (This argument can be put into another thread but: Putting HR4 on download makes the download larger, so don't do it? Well, what makes players leave, disgusting looking game or bigger download?) -- FYI, it wouldn't delete a map by adding a new one, the map pool would eventually build, just very slowly.

You want DP2 to be better? Upgrade it. Look at other FPS games and spot the differences. Ignore stuff that is clearly not possible (Ie way better textures/models/advertising) and focus on what can be done easily. Small maps was the only thing I noticed that is possible for us to change. It is a huge change to the existing community, sure, but it's more beneficial to the game surviving. I counted 24 people online lastnight, clearly something's gotta be done, and it can't be some stupid unnoticeable tweak. I mean, the ballspeed change was less necessary, and that was done without regard for the community.

The frustrating thing right now responding to some people is how they comment about "pubs having smaller-better maplists" - and saying not to continue that into the matching scene. It COMPLETELY ignores the main reason of the smaller maps. This DOES NOT allow for the smaller skill gap - WHICH IS THE MAIN REASON OF THIS IDEA. If we follow the above ideas, all it does is make the maps seen by new players more visually appealing, but they still are unable to enter the matching scene ever.

The only other options I've seen that would help the activity are: UNBAN EVERYONE! - That's stupid. 1) Yeah, good way to start the community... 2) Who would even come back? Homingbullet? Toxiic? Cool, great additions. Toss out every other idea, this is clearly the solution!

[Chalk]

this is pretty much up to the server owners. unless jitspoe goes hardcore dictator mode and makes people take the maps off their servers..

[MyeRs]

^ That's the point. He would need to do something where he controls the maps, not the server owners. Not sure how that works, Rick mentioned it in the other thread already as that was the only obvious problem. It's what every popular FPS game has. Positives outweigh negatives by a lot. Jitspoe needs to enforce something, instead of spend time coding it.

[SuperMAn]

Yeah.. Make new server owners have to jump through more hoops to run their servers how they want, that is a great idea.  It is already hard enough for people to run their own server.  Next are you going to ask him to force 60 seconds spawn times everywhere?
I am not a huge fan of it but you can't deny that most people that play this game these days prefer mindless killing on ub_cliff to a proper game.

I probably could continue a rant on how this is a bad idea but I am tired and wont.

Forced Map Pool = BAD




One last thing to think about:  The two people who run the majority of servers for this game are against this idea.

[cusoman]

Honestly, I think a set of official maps is for the best.

10 maps is a little small, but remember what you're competing with.  All popular FPS have about 8-12 common maps, with small installments over the course of their release.  To this end, I feel 10 maps + extras per build fits the current trend of FPS pretty well.

Traditionally, the Quake Engine games, and games with similar engines on the PC, all sport loads of maps, parallel with our situation.  It might make our mod a bit different (and attractive? that's the real question here) if we were more standardized then the others.

Unfortunately, I would not personally enjoy this.  I like mapping, and I like that this game has such a variety of maps.  I also doubt that some of my favorite maps would make it into the "official list" and would make it less fun for me.  I would probably end of quitting (yeah right, games meddling unquittable man)

That being said, I think the sheer number of maps, and the time it takes to really learn them, is one of the biggest factors keeping newer players from entering the next tier.

- Cusoman

[Rick]

The main aim for me would be to keep new players, rather then the old ones. We NEED new people.

[Chalk]

^ That's the point. He would need to do something where he controls the maps, not the server owners. Not sure how that works, Rick mentioned it in the other thread already as that was the only obvious problem. It's what every popular FPS game has. Positives outweigh negatives by a lot. Jitspoe needs to enforce something, instead of spend time coding it.

those popular fps games' servers are hosted by the game.

One last thing to think about:  The two people who run the majority of servers for this game are against this idea.

[Foxhound]

What happens when Riddicks complaint about ThC whom picks a map not on the list of 10 while in a match comes true? You're not suggesting that it wont be allowed or it will be against proper match etiquette to pick a non "10 map" map? There was also talk about removing all the maps and starting fresh? You also suggested a new bunch of maps come out with each build, won't the map count grow in size again? Which goes against your other idea of having ten maps. I think you would find on the uninstall surveys are a lot of "not many different maps"

The map rotations in pubs change a lot, noobs pick and chose their new favorite noob map. Things wont change. Matches will always have new maps people don't know, Superman and clipz are against this, I do not see this as a viable or even close to a reasonable idea.

When we were new, was our match maps not Shock, Razzle, barrels, b2b. Did we not get raped by CC when they picked renoir while our map was shock?(INB4 CC reference about being bad or good) Did we not learn how to eventually play renoir, carp, sphouse? You guys are being ridiculous. WE did it, so can they.

What's different now than back then is simply, the newbs found out that there is a thing called a speed server, where they spend less time being dead and get to shoot a lot more paint. It's not about matching for them. It's only about matching for you guys. In reality YOU are trying to change THEM. Deny it all you want, try and say it's for the better of the community. They (newbs/pubstars)  don't even use the forums and don't even know about this debate.

If this went through, newbs would get on and be ready to play some rooftop and then see wait a minute... I don't know any of these maps on superman 1 where i always used to play, ew that server's running pp1, I hate that map, ok I like over the hill and i've played it before... wtf I have to wait 60 seconds? "newbie disconnected" He'll join another server, see that the same thing is happening. He will search for a friendly map that he used to play all the time and wont find it. He wont find speed servers. He will eventually uninstall the game... OOOOORRRRR on the off chance this person wants to spend the time learning how to play a game that he joined knowing about 5 second respawns, and all of a sudden has to learn 60 second respawns he will stay. FAT meddling CHANCE.

What does this change mean for Jump servers? which get most of the popularity these days? Soccer has become more popular too, not only among newbs but with the old veterans again.

Again, this is a change YOU as IRC/FORUMS/CLANSCENE want. Not necessarily what they, the newbs, the recently installed players, and some veterans.

[Ghadente]

Its a fine idea for your own server(s)... but to force all servers to limit the amount of maps allowed is just wrong.
Most maps are played repeatedly anyway, so unless you are on a beta/map server, you will eventually learn the maps over time.

if those running the servers wanted to only have 10 maps in their server wouldn't they have just done this themselves already?

[Narga]

The idea from Narga is better for a pub server. Have only 10-15 maps in the rotation. Players know the maps after a while and can play on it. With all the different server, the players can choose another one if they want to play new maps. The best thing is: It already works, there are no changes needed. The server admins just need to do it.

I'm not totally fond with my idea either, but if this limited map thing will be implemented, server admins should be able to swap the current maps in their rotation to other maps.

But I think this is a better idea:

I think the "Digital Paint official seal of approval" thing would be great so new players will know how to make a proper first impression of the game instead of judging the game because of poorly made maps or beta maps.

When a map is finished, the mapper will PM a map committee mapper so he/she can add a secret code to the map, when Paintball 2 detects this secret code in a map, Paintball 2 will know that the map has a "Digital Paint official seal of approval".

When a map with the "Digital Paint official seal of approval" is being loaded, it should say something like "this map has the Digital Paint official seal of approval" so new players will know that they can properly make a first impression based on the map.

When Paintball 2 detects that all of the maps in a server rotation have the "Digital Paint official seal of approval", then Paintball 2 will give the server the "Digital Paint official seal of approval". This will be displayed onto the server list next to the server name or something so new players will know that this server only has high quality maps that he/she can properly make a first impression off of.

I think we should have a button like in Team Fortress 2 that allows players to quickly join the best available server with the specified game mode being played. Maybe there could also be an option for speed server and public server as well.

Not only would this feature bring players to a server that's not full, not empty, has the most players playing, is currently playing the specified game mode, and has the lowest ping. It will also only bring players to servers that have the "Digital Paint official seal of approval".

[MyeRs]

People are so closed minded and don't understand much, that there's really no point in responding. So this is my last response in this thread, I gave my points, people choose to ignore it and assume other things.

Foxhound, your entire posts is about people who currently play DP. "RIGHT NOW" they don't like 'x' map, - but I'm trying to compare DP to other popular FPS games and point out the differences. If there were only 'x' maps, new players WOULD play it and like it, because they wouldn't know different. I'm sorry though, since you can't comprehend an example I'll use variables in my posts to dumb it down for you, ok?

Also, you're assuming I'm trying to pick the maps, I'm giving my opinion on what I personally consider a balanced map. Learn to understand a post before posting, I'm giving examples. Is every other game wrong for having small maps?

To the "we all learned" -- Yeah, look how well that went. THIS IS WHY WE'RE TRYING TO COME UP WITH A CHANGE THAT LOWERS THE SKILL GAP (Which no1 seems to care about anymore?) TO MAKE NEW PLAYERS STAY. -- Look at uninstall surveys, I can almost guarantee the biggest problems are: No single player or tutorial / Game looks like excrement / Everyone flying around --- Smaller map pool can help 2 of the problems with minimal work from Jitspoe. You also completely misunderstood or didn't read my posts, since this is an idea that helps NEW PLAYERS more so than anything. It lowers the entire skill gap in the game, so the current matching scene likely will be against it. This is something for the game to grow, and the future of the clanscene to grow instead of die.

Cusoman sums it up the best. This idea works for the game itself, (since Jitspoe has said this game gets a lot of downloads, but nobody sticks around - so would certainly help repopulate) - but current players would be against it. ALSO - Who gives a intercourse if some current server owners are against it, more people will buy servers if the game grows.

[Foxhound]

So you don't care about the current population, you just want a new one?

And I don't understand how it lowers skill gap by picking certain maps to pub on? they still ultimately have to learn how to play the map one way or the other, if they find it hard they will uninstall anyway; or they have the servers they play on now with the poor maps you don't like and they enjoy themselves instead of uninstalling even quicker.

I also don't understand why you would want to limit yourself to 10 maps? Wouldn't that make the clan scene so much more boring? Playing shazam33 and all those other poor maps you "suggested"? like cuso admits, he will leave. I know a lot of people currently wont play any of that excrement, you will kill the game even more, new players might play, seeing as they don't know what they are missing out on, maybe the newbs don't want to match at all. Maybe some newbs get on forums, and see that there are maps that they never get to play, maybe the request for them.

But cmon, no one will want to stay after that change. You play LoL 24/7 anyway, why try to make such a drastic change that you can't honestly think will be fun for yourself if you don't even play this game now?.

No way can you explain this and make it a good idea. Lowering the skill gap has been addressed by creating a tutorial map, which when fully developed and completed will help much more than a 10 map pool.

And as far as your FPS game theory, let's say I joined CS:S played on dust2 as my first map, I die 10 times dont get one kill (which usually happens) I'm uninstalling... ooor oh wait a minute there's a surf map that's fun, oh and jail break that's fun, oh and gun game that's fun.... that dust2 map ain't excrement btw, its only good for COMPETITIVE PUBS. Not for everyone, the game is open sourced too, there's bsp editors just the same, people pump out maps in css and they get played more than dust2 (on pubs). I don't even know how you can compare CSS, you get on steam once a month (if even that) and you don't play cs you play dota or some other cigarette game. Check the server list, 30% is competitive pubs with the "main maps" you talk about (not even saying that 30% are populated, they just idle empty), 70% are misc game modes with custom made maps.

You have admitted to me yourself, your interests are competitive gaming, LoL, CS:S, and now you're trying to make DP that way. Always trying to get your way.

And I don't understand how you're saying the "we all did it" statement is wrong... we all did it, but we all grew up and moved on. There hasn't been a new generation since us. so yeah, it worked, you're just dumb.

[jitspoe]

I see the point you're trying to make, but limiting the maps has its down sides, too.  I actually see that as a detriment to other games, and an excuse for them to make more money by selling DLC.  Limited maps in games kind of bother me.

I do think, however, that we have too many poorly-built maps in regular rotation.  Here's what I think would be a possible solution:

For matches, have a pool of "officially approved" maps.  Clans can match on any map they want, if both clans agree, however, if clan A wants to pick unknownmap2354, clan B can decline and request they only pick one from the approved list.  But, hey, if they both want to play on it - let 'em at it.

For pubs, and this is a long way off, I think the only real way to enforce any kind of standard map or settings is to have an XP system.  Servers could run whatever maps and settings they want, but people aren't going to get XP for spawncamping ub_cliff for 8 hours, so it should encourage people to play "approved" maps.

[Foxhound]

Jitspoe, we both know there's no way to enforce that for matches. This will take this discussion into Official tie maps, which again has been talked about and ultimately pooped on. Most of the people above who wanted an official 10 maps  actually shot down the official tie map list. So I don't get them at all.

I like an xp idea though, I commented that in the other thread.

adding to terrorist, I think an HLXStats type deal would increase popularity (Foxhound gains 3 points [1403] for killing newbie1234 -1 [999])